Is Satan able to do good things???

[juvenissun]

I didn't define evil. And I do not take evil as human nature.

So, after you define it, you will see it has to be a human nature. You may try.

 

[Tayla]

Just an afterthought. If we assume he does exist, and we assume God is omniscient and omnipotent, then technically, everything happens because of God's will. And if we assume God is good, then everything Satan does must also be good because that was God's directive the whole time.

I think defining God as omniscient and omnipotent is problematic; it makes him merely a super-duper human having merely a super-duper human mind.

Your posts hits the nail on the head. The essential question is how a good God can allow evil.

 

[Tayla]

As I look around, it's us human beings who I see destroying God's Creation. I'm told it's because of our fallen nature. Things like greed, anger and ego are brought up as examples. Are we now being told that it's Satan's doing? I'm so confused!

There is a possible explanation: Our souls reside in the spiritual realm. This realm is also inhabited by evil spirits. They have crowded into our souls causing them to become dysfunctional. So we choose to do bad things because the spiritual pressure to do so is overwhelming.

 

[Tayla]

CryptoLutheran:

How exactly can the notion of a Devil-as-God's-opponent (or the notion of evil-as-opposing-God) ever NOT lead to a form of dualism?

There is a way. God creates creatures in his image (partially), that are in some way mini-gods. Their conscious experience and related attributes are distinct from God; he doesn't experience what we experience. And in some way he created a fresh spiritual space for these creatures to live in, again "outside" of God.

God has relationship with these creatures. If for some reason he promised one of them (Lucifer) a whole universe of creatures to design and co-create, and then if Lucifer rebelled against God...well, you would have our current predicament.

 

[Tayla]

Beings that have choice but always choose the right path.
Sounds like Special pleading to be honest.

Yes, this kind of nonsense from my fellow Christians has always annoyed me.

 

[Tayla]

Let me elaborate:

It's basically a variation of theodicy.

IF there is a God, and
IF that God is omnipotent, and
IF omniscience is also one of His traits,
then it is impossible for anything to happen without His knowledge and (at the very least) leave.

Any proclaimed "enemy of God" would be bound to work within His Will, like a chess game where every move is determined and anticipated with utter certainty.

Yes, this is why I reject such descriptions of God as omnipotent and omniscience. Doing so makes God very small and bound by the rules of logic.

 

[Tayla]

YOU can?
For how long?
If it is "our nature", how do you turn away from part of your nature?

Yes, I'm tired of hearing all these great promises from the Bible that have no teeth; just stories to bounce around inside your head for the week until you can go back to church next Sunday and get another fix.

 

[Tayla]

European thought has got a long tradition of conflating unethical behaviour with "animalistic" urges (and demonizing sexuality in particular).

Yes, even today Christians consider the body as a source of sin, calling it "the flesh".

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

Let me elaborate:

It's basically a variation of theodicy.

IF there is a God, and
IF that God is omnipotent, and
IF omniscience is also one of His traits,
then it is impossible for anything to happen without His knowledge and (at the very least) leave.

Any proclaimed "enemy of God" would be bound to work within His Will, like a chess game where every move is determined and anticipated with utter certainty.

God being omnipotent doesn't necessarily lead to Fatalism( so Question begging and Non Sequitur ), you fail to take into account things like Molinism, Open Theism, Compatiblism, God's Permissive Will, arguments for a "Relational" view of Divine Providence etc. and you assume a false definition of omnipotence.( Assuming infinite power equals uncaring Dictatorship).

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

I think defining God as omniscient and omnipotent is problematic; it makes him merely a super-duper human having merely a super-duper human mind.

Your posts hits the nail on the head. The essential question is how a good God can allow evil.

That statement only holds for Theistic Personalism( Where God is taught to be a Being who is a Composite of Attributes ) not Classical Theism.

 

[Tayla]

it seems to me that the distinction between monotheism and polytheism is much ado about nothing. The monotheists usually break down God into different names or features to better understand and worship. The polytheists usually acknowledge the oneness of nature including the many gods into one God.

There is a YouTube video of Yale professor Christine Hayes about the Old Testament. She spends a whole class on the distinction and they are very different indeed.

 

[dlamberth]

There is a possible explanation: Our souls reside in the spiritual realm. This realm is also inhabited by evil spirits. They have crowded into our souls causing them to become dysfunctional. So we choose to do bad things because the spiritual pressure to do so is overwhelming.

I look at it from the complete opposite positions. And that's that we have forgotten how to allow our souls to reside in the spiritual realm of the Earth and all life on it. With the result that we have lost the sacredness that it is.

 

[Tayla]

I look at it from the complete opposite positions. And that's that we have forgotten how to allow our souls to reside in the spiritual realm of the Earth and all life on it. With the result that we have lost the sacredness that it is.

Please clarify: Are you saying there is a spiritual realm separate from the physical material universe, or are you saying something like: the physical material universe is really only a spiritual thing because that's all that exists, perhaps something like idealism?

 

[dlamberth]

Please clarify: Are you saying there is a spiritual realm separate from the physical material universe, or are you saying something like: the physical material universe is really only a spiritual thing because that's all that exists, perhaps something like idealism?

Neither. Being on a spiritual journey I ask myself, what does panenthesim look like when we move away from a mental thinking about it as a noun kind of thing and instead dive into it as a verb where it becomes "experiential" such that everywhere one looks, there God is, very alive and vibrant? It's very much a spiritual experience of the soul. Our western culture has lost that ability. Any longer it's only the mystics and indigenous people who know the spirit of the earth and life on it. For most of us, Trees for instance are a thing, an object, a noun. We dissect it with out any thought of it being anything more than an "it". We no longer think of Trees as a verb, very alive, vibrant and with soul. And anything with soul has spirit.

 

[Tayla]

everywhere one looks, there God is, very alive and vibrant? It's very much a spiritual experience of the soul.

To my thinking, you describe Idealism, in which reality is mental or spiritual or the manifestation of consciousness or some such. The key ingredient of Idealism is, I think, there is no physical material universe apart from our experiencing of it or our perception of it; thus, the physical material universe exists because it appears to exist. This is the opposite of materialistic science which denies everything except the physical material universe.

By the way, I have no complaint against Idealism. Materialism has problems, mainly when considering subjective conscious experience.

 

[dlamberth]

To my thinking, you describe Idealism, in which reality is mental or spiritual or the manifestation of consciousness or some such. The key ingredient of Idealism is, I think, there is no physical material universe apart from our experiencing of it or our perception of it; thus, the physical material universe exists because it appears to exist. This is the opposite of materialistic science which denies everything except the physical material universe.

By the way, I have no complaint against Idealism. Materialism has problems, mainly when considering subjective conscious experience.

You bring up a point that I haven't explored, that being the meaning of "idealism". For my way of exploring the Divine, it's all about consciousness and as a journey where we go with it and how do we make it a reality in our lives.

 

[Tayla]

You bring up a point that I haven't explored, that being the meaning of "idealism". For my way of exploring the Divine, it's all about consciousness and as a journey where we go with it and how do we make it a reality in our lives.

Certainly from a pragmatic perspective your approach to living is the best. I hereby award you the coveted rainbow post rating.

 

[dlamberth]

Certainly from a pragmatic perspective your approach to living is the best. I hereby award you the coveted rainbow post rating.

So jesus316, I've been contemplating this last little bit of back and forth conversation with you because I found something in it that is of interest to me.

I think we spend a lot of time learning "about" God, be it by scripture, history or what ever. Conversely, I also think that we spend very little time actually learning to be "in" God. For a lot of people that's even a foreign concept. As a response, we've developed all kinds of words and images about God, but not so much from the perspective of being "in" God. My direction as a Lover of God is in the "in" part. So I don't spend much time learning the "about" part. That's the reason why I don't concern myself with ideas such as Idealism. I don't believe that's where God is. So I don't spend much time there.

I'm not done contemplating all of this but I do think you for triggering this inner search.

 

[Tayla]

I also think that we spend very little time actually learning to be "in" God.

You convict me. For example, the portion of my website about devotion to God and having a relationship with Jesus is a bit on the lean side compared with the analytical stuff. I'm at a loss to know how to make the shift you recommend; certainly not by going to church or hanging out with Christians. And I have no interest in drugs. Yoga and meditation seemed to work a little bit decades ago but I was younger then and it took to much work. Similarly, I would like to go outside my cabin in the forest and commune with nature more than I do. I mainly just go out to walk the dogs.

 

[dlamberth]

I'm at a loss to know how to make the shift you recommend; certainly not by going to church or hanging out with Christians.

I see from your blog that your Catholic (but not of the liberal variety). How lucky of you! Catholicism is full of people who have made the shift. Many of my spiritual hero's and teachers are Catholic. Your religion is rich with resources! Stay home, you don't need to go anywhere else!