Is salvation thru Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?

Is salvation through

  • Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?

  • Torah Obedience alone?

  • Faith and Grace alone?

  • Faith alone?

  • Grace alone?

  • None of the above?


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Gxg (G²)

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You are making it sound like God's grace comes in flavors.. one for the unbelievers like Nineveh .. and another type for believers..
Grace is grace, although what's in the scriptures is what's in the scriptures--and one is devoid of scripture to claim the people of Nineveh (or Cannaan or Egypt and many other places the Lord redeemed people in) had the same access to the Spirit of the Lord as believers have today. The people of Ninevah could turn to the Lord/have redeemption just as others around the world at that time/previously also were able to find---regardless of their error---but their relationship was not the kind that we have today when ALL have access to the fullness of the SPirit that has come about due to Yeshua.

The prophets of old were looking forward to what WE HAVE NOW...not asking us to look back at what they and the nations had then...with Hebrews 11 noting how those of us in our time are apart of a great legacy where all are made complete in the past by what we now have/are held responsible for since they could only look in anticipation for it ( Numbers 11:28-30 /Numbers 11 , Hebrews 1, Luke 24:26-28 / Luke 24 , Luke 24:43-45 , John 1:44-46 John 1 )


I Peter 1:10


10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things

__________________
 
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visionary

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Easy G (G²);59611597 said:
Grace is grace, although what's in the scriptures is what's in the scriptures--and one is devoid of scripture to claim the people of Nineveh (or Cannaan or Egypt and many other places the Lord redeemed people in) had the same access to the Spirit of the Lord as believers have today. The people of Ninevah could turn to the Lord/have redeemption just as others around the world at that time/previously also were able to find---regardless of their error---but their relationship was not the kind that we have today when ALL have access to the fullness of the SPirit that has come about due to Yeshua.

The prophets of old were looking forward to what WE HAVE NOW...not asking us to look back at what they and the nations had then...with Hebrews 11 noting how those of us in our time are apart of a great legacy where all are made complete in the past by what we now have/are held responsible for since they could only look in anticipation for it ( Numbers 11:28-30 /Numbers 11 , Hebrews 1, Luke 24:26-28 / Luke 24 , Luke 24:43-45 , John 1:44-46 John 1 )
They were not looking forward to what we have now... they were looking forward to what He did, just like we look back at what He did.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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They were not looking forward to what we have now... they were looking forward to what He did, just like we look back at what He did.
Not what the scriptures say. What He did and what we have now is what they were looking forward to as Peter and the author of Hebrews alongside others note when it comes to their wishing ALL believers had the spirit of the Lord available/the Final Sacrifice.



I Peter 1:10


10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things

What's in the book is in the book, V, as the prophets realized what they prophesied was not just for the sacrifice of the Messiah for them--but also for our service as well.

Moses noted it as well as others within the Torah...and as Hebrews 11 notes best:

Hebrews 11

Faith in Action

1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.


17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.


Hebrews 12

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It was never the sacrifices that saved. It was the faith and obedience with which those sacrifices were made that accessed the grace that brought the mercy that saved.

In all honesty, despite the grace/mercy we've been given for salvation, still wishing folks could still be taken up into glory like it was with Enoch or Elijah;):D

There are some believing that Enoch and Elijah died/had to suffer the curse of sin/death (noted here and here )---Although as the OT saints all looked forward to Christ for salvation, one must wonder if perhaps their bodies were glorifed. For more, one can go to Did Enoch and Elijah receive glorified bodies? - Resources - Eternal ...

Faith saved even in the OT thankfully...a type for what we have now
 
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Something can be seen from afar...but, it was not until the cross, where the new creation came to be
Thank the Lord for its arrival, even as it was prophesied just as the defeat of sin/the work of the enemy was prophesied in the Garden in Genesis 3
 
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visionary

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Easy G (G²);59611660 said:
Not what the scriptures say. What He did and what we have now is what they were looking forward to as Peter and the author of Hebrews alongside others note when it comes to their wishing ALL believers had the spirit of the Lord available/the Final Sacrifice.



I Peter 1:10


10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things

What's in the book is in the book, V, as the prophets realized what they prophesied was not just for the sacrifice of the Messiah for them--but also for our service as well.

Moses noted it as well as others within the Torah...and as Hebrews 11 notes best:
"the prophets realized what they prophesied was not just for the sacrifice of the Messiah for them--but also for our service as well.".. exactly..
 
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visionary

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Easy G (G²);59611739 said:
Thank the Lord for its arrival, even as it was prophesied just as the defeat of sin/the work of the enemy was prophesied in the Garden in Genesis 3
So you are of the thinking that the "new creation in Yeshua" isn't something neither Enoch or Elijah received?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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"the prophets realized what they prophesied was not just for the sacrifice of the Messiah for them--but also for our service as well.".. exactly..
All of it something folks look forward to just as we look forward to what occured right after the Garden when a Messiah was prophesied, people were saved from specific judgements and all of it led up to the cross.....an epic story.:) Louie Giglio said it best when discussing the role of man in the story of God and how all of history is HIStory



 
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Gxg (G²)

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So you are of the thinking that the "new creation in Yeshua" isn't something neither Enoch or Elijah received?
All believers in the Lord, including those in the grave, are to recieve new glorified bodies---and is something that doesn't seem to have happened yet nor will happen until the return of Christ..with those perishing being in the prescene of the Lord/awaiting. More on that was discussed in regards to those who rose from the grave in the time of Christ/prior (as seen here in #48 and #64 / #66 ) and how they didn't necessarily have glorified bodies as Paul discussed were to come later on when the Lord returned in bodily form
 
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And that is the disconnect between the unchanging God we know and love.. and the one portrayed above...
Only when one doesn't understand a Biblical concept in context such as the concept of Paradox within scripture (or truth in tension) or the aspects of God having differing aspects clearly within scripture can one claim "disconnect"--just as there can be disconnect with not understanding that the Lord gave differing aspects of grace in the OT that differed from the NT. This is basic to what MJism has always shared, v...
 
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visionary

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The gospel is simple, ageless, and for all eternity.. When we own our faults in Godly sorrow, His grace is then released to truly begin the work of healing and restoration. When we make excuses for our faults in worldly sorrow, our pride is revealed to keep justifying them.
 
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The gospel is simple, ageless, and for all eternity.. When we own our faults in Godly sorrow, His grace is then released to truly begin the work of healing and restoration. When we make excuses for our faults in worldly sorrow, our pride is revealed to keep justifying them.


2 Corinthians 7:9-11/2 Corinthians 7
Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.
Worldy sorrow is always focused upon the individual, be it the one saying they see nothing wrong with their sin....or the other saying that they can atone for their sin by being pious/attempting to be righteous enough for the Lord (i.e. trying to clean onself up before coming to Yeshua rather than letting the Lord cleanse and seeing how he made cleansing possible by His work on the Cross/Shed blood). The latter can be one of the more deadlier since it often seems to be more "godly" than saying they don't care for anything since it can be a form of reverse pride....self-pity/attempt to base righteousness on the individual, which basicially says "Christ didn't suffer enough.."....and the latter can be dangerous since it can give a wrong impression of righteousness, like the two men who went to pray and the Lord noted that the former boasting of his works before the Lord was worthless


Luke 18
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector 9
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”



Before anything was done by man, the Lord took the first steps...and made his grace available to all:


1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-3/ 1 John 2

Before anything was done on the parts of others in turning toward the Lord, grace was released---and those choosing to place their trust in the grace given are those able to walk in the fullness of that grace with being transformed into sons/daughters of the Lord.

Peter said it best:

2 Peter 1:10

Confirming One’s Calling and Election

3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.


5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


That said, with the grace the Lord has provided in sacrificing his Son, those trusting in it are to demonstrate the evidence of that via repentence of sins....as they truly see the things they used to do as not comparable to the ways of the Messiah:)

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance” (Matthew 9:13).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes” (Matthew 11:20-21).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:2-5).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. … Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth” (Luke 15:7, 10).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things” (Luke 24:46-48).[/FONT]​
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][/FONT]​
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 3:19).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins” (Acts 5:31).[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." ( Acts 11:18 )[/FONT]

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, ( Acts 17:30 )

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. ( Acts 20:21 )[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. ( Acts 26:20 )[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” ( Acts 26:20 )[/FONT]​

With the repentence that comes, there's the other reality easily forgotten that repentence doesn't just mean one is sorry for their sins.
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]The remorse, self-condemnation, anger or regret we feel when we make mistakes does not constitute Biblical repentance..for even the prisons are full of people who fall into this category since they are very sorry they got caught, but if released would just go out and do it again. Even among those that genuinely feel remorse for what they have done and want to make changes in their lives, there are few that exercise repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Going along with that, many others think that avoiding sin for fear of the consequences is repentance....but one can go about ajusting our life-style, demeanor, manner of speech and conduct so as to look better in the eyes of others, or to avoid consequences of socially unacceptable or illegal behavior does not mean we have necessarily undergone any real repentance. Essentially, doing that means that we may merely have changed from openly obvious sinners to hypocrites, which is worse. It's like o[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]beying traffic laws because tickets are very expensive, or avoiding shoplifting because we could be badly embarrassed if we were caught rather than doing so because we hate those things the way the Lord does.[/FONT]​
[/FONT]
 
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Henaynei

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Easy G (G²) said:
There are some believing that Enoch and Elijah died/had to suffer the curse of sin/death... perhaps their bodies were glorified.
Personally I don't think they are going to die until they are killed in the Temple - I believe they are probably the Two Witnesses.
 
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Personally I don't think they are going to die until they are killed in the Temple - I believe they are probably the Two Witnesses.
Heard of that view before, in regards to thinking it was Elijah and Enoch rather than Elijah and Moses who appeared when Christ transfigured ( Matthew 17:2-4 / Matthew 17 , Mark 9:3-5 / Mark 9, Luke 9:29-31 / Luke 9 ). Personally, I'm of the mindset that it may be the latter (Moses and Elijah ) who'll be the two witnesses who die..but there are alot of things to consider with differing views.:)
 
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It has always been: Faith/Trust (in HaShem's promised Redemption) as evidenced by obedience through Grace = Salvation ;)
Faith to accept the grace made available and the grace available making it possible to walk in faith/obediance:);)
 
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visionary

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Easy G (G²);59612985 said:
Heard of that view before, in regards to thinking it was Elijah and Enoch rather than Elijah and Moses who appeared when Christ transfigured ( Matthew 17:2-4 / Matthew 17 , Mark 9:3-5 / Mark 9, Luke 9:29-31 / Luke 9 ). Personally, I'm of the mindset that it may be the latter (Moses and Elijah ) who'll be the two witnesses who die..but there are alot of things to consider with differing views.:)
Without disrupting this thread further on this rabbit trail. I would love for you to start a thread on the subject so that I can weigh in on the debate.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Without disrupting this thread further, on this rabbit trail. I would love for you to start a thread on the subject so that I can weigh in on the debate
May consider it..although as you initially asked on the issue of Elijah/Enoch on ressurected bodies (#172 ), sincerly, you're always free to begin a thread if you wish. It was already brought up in other threads before (with myself sharing thoughts) when the subject came up...and any mention of it here is just that--a mention of it rather than an entire in-depth discussion, as has occurred with other things.:cool: If you start one, I'll be glad to join in:)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It has always been: Faith/Trust (in HaShem's promised Redemption) as evidenced by obedience through Grace = Salvation ;)
There's an old quote I once heard that spoke on what you said. The individual said "Heaven's free but it sure will cost you."
 
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