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Is salvation thru Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Phillip Hawley, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?

  2. Torah Obedience alone?

  3. Faith and Grace alone?

  4. Faith alone?

  5. Grace alone?

  6. None of the above?

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  1. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    For those who don't think that Grace existed in the 'OT', here's a book that gives explicit examples.

    It's free right now on Amazon

    God's Favorite Liars, Adulterers, and Murderers



    God's Favorite Liars, Adulterers, and Murderers looks at how God's grace worked in the lives of several Biblical heroes and how it works the same way in our lives today. This book encourages us to move past our failures and turn back to God to allow Him to use us in powerful ways.

    God's Favorite Liars, Adulterers, and Murderers shows us that no matter how badly we screw up our lives, God can still use us in powerful ways if we just turn to Him. It answers the following questions and many more. How can an adulterer and a murderer be a man after God's own heart? How can a man with serious doubts about God be called the father of the faithful? It does this by looking in depth at the lives of several biblical heroes. It focuses on major mistakes in the lives of these people to show how God's grace worked powerfully in their lives. Despite these mistakes and because of God's grace, these people were still able to become heroes and heroines of the Bible. While examining these things the book also shows that what these biblical heroes and heroines went through is not very different from what we encounter today. God's grace can cover us today when we make these same mistakes or even mistakes which are far worse.

    God's Favorite Liars, Adulterers, and Murderers is very encouraging to those having difficulty dealing with the guilt of the sins in their lives. It is of particular help to jail ministries and various recovery groups. Actually, the book can encourage anyone who has ever sinned.
     
  2. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Thankfully, it was not the case that those searching for what we have the fullness of today in the Lord were not able to get previews of what was to come.

    Some of what I'm about to share has been shared elsewhere when it came to discussing the issue of how Christ's grace has been seen in exceeding amounts throughout the ages....and with that said, the example of Abraham (as a type of the believer we're to be ) comes to mind..specially seen in the lie he told.
    The same lie used the first time he went to Egypt was also the same lie that he used when he met Abimelech in Genesis 20:1-3/ Genesis 20 --and in both cases, DESPITE his sin, the Lord was faithful/took care of it. Earlier, when Abraham was told by the Lord that he'd give a son to him, the scriptures not that he beleived and Abraham was counted as righteous. And it was specificaly in regards to Genesis 15:5-7 / Genesis 15 when the Lord promised to prosper Abraham early in his walk....and truly make him into a great nation. After what occurred with his lying/causing a mess early on with Egypt, to have the Lord come/favor him is significant. For it is a picture/type of grace in action. For he trusted in the Lord for what he understood of the Lord's call at that point:



    His righteousness didn't come from being spotless or perfect, as Abraham made ALOT of mistakes---and only in assuming he was flawless in all respects can one really have any trouble with examining where Abraham did somethign that wasn't the best. He was righteous PRECISELY because of his great trust/faith in the Messiah despite all of his mess ups.


    When Abraham lied, he was not really not trusting in God. ..and thankfully, the Lord intervened to save Abimelech from making a mistake Abraham SHOULD have warned him about. . For in reading the story, I was always under the impression that Abimelech was a non-believer. However, as seen in Genesis 20:3-6, God came to Abimelech----intervening to ensure that Abimelech does not touch Sarah. In contrast to what occurred early on in the life of Abraham in Genesis 12:10-20, this episode seems to emphasize in a variety of ways that Sarah did not have sex with the king..otherwise, Abimelech could be the father of the promised/"Covenant" son born to Sarah in Genesis 21:1-3. With Abimelech, despite the fact that Abraham was deemed in Genesis 20:7 as a prophet able to intercede on behalf of others, Abimelech rightly challenged Abraham for decieving him about the status of His wife....


    In that culture, unless you were married, it was customary for kings to be able to take another wive. Sarah was saved---but had a godly king desired her for a wife and she was single, God would not have had any problem. Abraham's comment in Genesis 20:11---where he stated "I did it because there is no fear of God in this place..."---betrays both his lack of faith in God and his misjudgement of the people of Geerar. The whole episode reveals that the King and His servants were God-fearing, as seen in Genesis 20:8 and Genesis 20:16-18 when Abimelech was exceedingly gracious/generous. His generosity, on top of his innocence, contrasts sharply with Abraham's self-serving deception regarding the truth about Sarah...for the king's actions were a very public affirmation that he had not acted inappropiately toward Sarah...and thus, he was not the father of any child she had. Abraham was shown in Genesis 20:12-13 to really have been a greater sinner than Abimelech.

    Some say that having multiple wives would have made Abimelech the greater sinner than Abraham....but that'd not be consistent with the text when it notes that having multiple wives wasn't always deemed "sin" in that culture--no more different than it was for David in the wives he took for himself when he desired..provided that they were single first (I Samuel 39-44, I Samuel 27:2-3, II Samuel 5:12-16, II Samuel 12:8, etc)---and the same goes for concubines (II Samuel 16:20-24, II Samuel 15:16, I Kings 1:1-4, I Kings 2:17-25, etc). In that culture, kings had that right----just as Abraham had the right to take on other wives/concubines if he so desired....as well as slaves. Interestingly enough, if discussing markets, Genesis 14 describes Abram beginning to go to war to rescue his nephew (Lot) and then brought his trained men/servants born in his house to do battle (Genesis 14:13-16).

    Many of these individuals were most likely those whom he had gathered in other lands---seeing that the trading of others was common place-----for Genesis 12:5 makes clear that Abram had many had been taken/gathered in the land of Haran. Genesis 17:12 discusses the male servants whom Abram had bought with money from a foreigner....and Genesis 25:1-6 discuses how Abraham had been in the practice of gathering other women (concubines) for himself like Hagar. Those women were specifically for the purposes of sexual pleasure (I Chronicles 1:32). Reflecting on the culture of the ancient Near East, it was not unknown for men to take "second: wives...but this was usually an action of those who are wealthy. The precise status of the "second wife" could vary, depending on the nature of the relationship. She might be the maidservant of the first wife (Genesis 16:1-3, Genesis 29:24, Genesis 29:29, Genesis 30:3-9, etc). But in that culture, kings were able to get many women for many purposes.

    As Abram himself was considered to be a king, the same rules he applied to others could also be said of himself...for one could easily have been in a reverse position if around his territory and thinking that he could take their single women....and if married, the same fear of being endangered may've risen up in them for their wives being taken forcibly as other corrupt kings did. However, as Abram was righteous and would not do that if knowing the person was married, there would be no need for them to fear...just as Abram had no need fearing Abimelech who was righteous. For once the king had knowledge, he could place a woman in protection. That's again what Abimelech did for Abraham, as well as Issac in Genesis 26:11 by letting His people know that anyone touching Abraham's wife was subject to death (Proverbs 6:29). Adultery was NEVER appropiate in those times....

    Abraham was afraid when it came to his wife---and excused his lie. The statement was false when saying "she is my sister/ implying that she was not his wife. What Abimelech understood was thus false. Of course, its understood that others could take women and sell them to rulers...though again, righteous rulers would have to turn down those women who were already married to other men and deal sharply with men who treat women in ways akin to what happens today with human trafficking. And on the issue of "pretty", what's interesting to note is that Sarah was EXCEPTIONALLY pretty....and Abraham noted it often. In Genesis 20:12, the comment of "She is my sister" presupposes that the reader is familar with Genesis 12:11-13, which explains the rationale behind Abraham's words. Evidently Sarah looked much younger than her real age. He was fearful for his life because of Sarai's beauty----and in many ways, his selfish actions imply that he thought God was UNABLE to protect Him---despite what God had already promised Abram at the beginning of his journey (Genesis 12:1-4). Thankfully, as what happened on both occassions of his lie/ruse, God came to rescue Him when the plan backfired.

    With the passage in Genesis 12:10-20, the first readers (Israel following Moses) would have seen how God kept his promises to Abram, in spite of all the threats, and in spite of the morally dubious actions even of Abram himself.



    As it stands, it's interesting that the same problem Abraham had happened with his son in Genesis 26:6-26 where Abimelech was decieved again. Issac was afraid that the men in Gerar would kill him to get his beautiful wife, Rebekah...and so he lied as well in claiming that Rebekah was his sister. Evendently , he knew about the actins of his father Abraham...as parents help shape the world's future by the way they shape their children's values.

    Being new to the region of Gerar, Isaac adopted the same ruse that Abraham earlier used in both Egypt and Gera

    When Abimelech allowed Issac to stay in his land, he should have gone to the main man/king told the situation so that protection could be given. However, he took matters into his own hand...and when the king caught Issac sexually caressing his wife in Genesis 26:8-13, he was ticked. There was NO reason for one to decieve him as such/endanger others.

    The same situation of lying leading to great danger happened with King David in I Samuel 21 when he lied to protect himself from Saul (I Samuel 21:10). Some may excuse this lie because it was war going on and it is the duty of a good soldier to decieve the enemy. But nowhere was David's lie condoned---just as it was with Abraham. In fact, the opposite is true because his lie led to the death of 85 priests (I Samuel 22:9-19), who had no idea what was going on when Saul came after them. David's small lie seemed harmless enough, but it led to tragedy. For his asking of a sword as if he was on a mission for Saul led to others thinking that the priests were supplying David against Saul in insurrection. The Bible makes very clear that lying is wrong (Leviticus 19:11)....and there was no reason for David to devieve Ahimelech the priest by implying that he (David) was on official business for the king. There's, of course, a time/place for deception---but never with those who are righteous men following the Lord should deception be done against.


    Yet despite it all, the Lord's power was at work with the grace he did reveal on the Level folks understood at that point...
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  3. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    The scenario with Abraham was akin to him seeking to protect himself and was justly called out on it by the King for his falsehood---as He knew better than to do act unrighteously before another righteous man and endanger his entire household. All of this is even more significant in light of how God told Abimelech that Abraham was a prophet who was able to intercede on behalf of others (Genesis 20:7)......and despite Abraham's error, Abimelech was to return the woman he didn't know was married/ask Abraham to pray for him so that things would be set in order.

    It is akin in many ways to God telling Abimelech "I'm sorry for my servants error---for he knows better---but he'll be expected to lift you up as you work it out so that things can be set right."


    No one is being considerate when assuming without warrant. That'd be like one calling the cops on their neighbors when in a new neighborhood because of assuming they could be tempted to cheat with their spouse----even though the neighbors have shown no signs of such. Another way of seeing it would be like waging war early on with a nation/wiping them out...and then, if questioned, claiming "We didn't know if you could betray us in the future---so we decided to just kill you off to prevent the temptation."

    In many ways, Abraham did not walk in the faith He was required to---though to a degree, he demonstrated faith in trusting that even if his actions were wrong, God would get him out of it just as he had before. Its sad seeing Abraham in what he did (IMHO)---and very similar to what happened with Sarai and Hagar when God already promised Him a Son in Genesis 15....yet he chose to listen to the rationale of his wife and try to force it to work. It didn't work and there were grave consequences, even though God still came through to bless her son



    The scenario with Abraham was akin to him seeking to protect himself and was justly called out on it by the King for his falsehood---as He knew better than to do act unrighteously before another righteous man and endanger his entire household. All of this is even more significant in light of how God told Abimelech that Abraham was a prophet who was able to intercede on behalf of others (Genesis 20:7)......and despite Abraham's error, Abimelech was to return the woman he didn't know was married/ask Abraham to pray for him so that things would be set in order. It is akin in many ways to God telling Abimelech "I'm sorry for my servants error---for he knows better---but he'll be expected to lift you up as you work it out so that things can be set right." No one is being considerate when assuming without warrant. That'd be like one calling the cops on their neighbors when in a new neighborhood because of assuming they could be tempted to cheat with their spouse----even though the neighbors have shown no signs of such. Another way of seeing it would be like waging war early on with a nation/wiping them out...and then, if questioned, claiming "We didn't know if you could betray us in the future---so we decided to just kill you off to prevent the temptation."

    In many ways, Abraham did not walk in the faith He was required to---though to a degree, he demonstrated faith in trusting that even if his actions were wrong, God would get him out of it just as he had before. Its sad seeing Abraham in what he did (IMHO)---and very similar to what happened with Sarai and Hagar when God already promised Him a Son in Genesis 15....yet he chose to listen to the rationale of his wife and try to force it to work. It didn't work and there were grave consequences, even though God still came through to bless her son.


    In many ways, the faith Abraham demonstrated is a testament how the Lord can work with anyone, regardless of what level they're at in life...no matter how messed up. There was an excellent sermon series I heard recently on the subject of how often Abraham/Sarah kept falling into the same repeated sins---and for more, one can go right click here , here and click here or here for the entire series. It truly does give a differing perspective when considering how righteousness is not so much about what we do as much as trusting in the righteousness of Christ in order to become righteous...:)

    .
    Isaiah 64:5-7
    All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
    1 Corinthians 1:30
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
    1 Corinthians 1:29-31
    Romans 5:17
    For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
    Romans 10:4
    Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
    Galatians 2:21
    I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

    Galatians 3:11
    Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
    Philippians 1:10-12 /
    9 And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10 so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.
    Philippians 3:9
    What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
    1 John 2:1
    My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
    And the Lord truly works to bring redeemption to his people and has sought to show themes of that throughout the Old Testament. The folks at | Jewish Women's Archive said it best:
    Sarah’s ancestry is not clear. Genesis 11 relates that Abram and his brother Nahor married Sarai and Milcah, respectively (v. 29).It does not name Sarah’s father, even though it relates that Milcah was the daughter of Haran, Terah’s other son, and then names Haran’s other daughter, Iscah. When Gen 11:31 tells that “Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife” from Ur to Haran, it does not call Sarai Terah’s granddaughter. However, in Genesis 20, when Abraham explains his wife-sister ruse to Abimelech of Gerar, he claims that Sarah is his non-uterine sister (v. 12). This contradiction has led some readers to identify Sarah with the otherwise unknown Iscah. But this would make Sarai Abram’s niece, not his half sister; it would not explain why she is identified as daughter-in-law to Terah, not as his daughter.

    Sarah and Abraham come to Israel as part of God’s promise of numerous progeny and the land (Gen 12:1–5). Because Sarah’s importance to this promise is not at first obvious, the promise is immediately endangered. Forced by famine to leave the land, Abraham is fearful that Egyptians will kill him in order to take the beautiful Sarah. His concerns make sense in the biblical milieu, for in the Bible, beauty sets up the beautiful to be desired and taken. Indeed, Esther and Judith, at the close of the biblical period, are the first to use their beauty to their people’s advantage. Furthermore, in the ancient world adultery was considered a very grievous offense, possibly even worse than murder. Thus Abraham’s solution seems bizarre; he asks Sarah to say that she is his sister. They would still take her, but they would not kill Abraham, who would thus “share a wife and save a life.” The ruse might have some advantage for Sarah, for a brother was somewhat of a protector, whereas a widow had no protection of any kind. It certainly enriched Abraham, who was given bride wealth for a sister, something that he would never have received as a husband.

    Genesis 12 relates this strange wife-sister episode in a matter-of-fact fashion. Genesis 20, the parallel account in which Abraham tries this ruse in Gerar, adds new details that perhaps show concern about Abraham’s actions that developed after the original telling of the story. The Gerar story emphasizes that Abimelech never touched Sarah because God immediately intervened with dreams. Moreover, the narrator is not at ease with the wife-sister ruse and may no longer understand it. So Abraham not only relates that Sarah is his half-sister, but also makes it clear that the ruse is done by the grace and benevolence of Sarah.

    Although the wife-sister stories are difficult to understand, the fact that Sarah becomes a slave in Pharaoh’s house serves to foreshadow Israel’s later bondage in Egypt. She herself is not in danger of her life—but the reader knows that nascent Israel is in danger of losing its ancestress. And so God acts to protect Sarah by afflicting “Pharaoh and his house with great plagues” (Gen 12:17) until he realizes the problem and sends Sarah away. Protection and plague foreshadow Israel’s later redemption at the exodus.

     
  4. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Excellent book resource and many thanks for bringing it up, as it's slammin:thumbsup::):D

    Seems similar to the book I read growing up called Bad Girls of the Bible: And What We Can Learn from Them " when helping people see there are PLENTY of people they can relate to within scripture...with many seeing the intervention of the Lord in their lives in a myriad of ways.
     
  5. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    God's grace didn't fall just on individuals in the Tanakh, we have whole cities such as Nineveh. Grace sent a preacher, grace was preached, received and deliverance from destruction was experienced. Grace is not a NT phenomena.
     
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Individuals and cities are not the same as it being manifested in a person like never before in Yeshua when he came with grace/truth and opened up the door...for Nineveh was shown mercy when they repented. Didn't mean they had grace in the sense that believers have it with FULL atonement of sins through the Blood rather than continual sacrifice/no way to remain righteous since the Holy Spirit was not given out to all men at that time. Even with the people of the Lord, the Spirit of the Lord was what brought the intention of grace to fruition
     
  7. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    We all know God was always gracious, and we saw it in the OT, but mans position, on a whole, was that he was in the reign of sin and death in the first Adamic creation. Your biggest confrontation has to be with Romans 5, because prior to the cross, sin reigned IN ADAM, unless you can show otherwise.

    All were in the first Adam, yes even Mary, LOL!..

    Now all Christians are in the last Adam, and that new creation in the sphere of grace, was not until the cross. Romans 5 Talks about the one act, of the one man, who was Christ! We were raised up with Christ, and that was the only thing, by His glorious power, that took us out of the flesh. The reign of sin, was ended by the power of grace, and only grace.

    What other act, but the cross, could have made a new creation?


    Romans 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    I await your reply. SH.
     
  8. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Um, first, not all believe that grace came before Yeshua, they even quote John to back it up.

    Second, I have no reply for you, what I posted was a Christian book I found on Amazon that is offered free right now, with a brief description. If you have any challenges to make about it, contact the author.

    His name is Vance Kessler, and you can read more about him here.
     
  9. Henaynei

    Henaynei Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

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    I agree that the grace, as typified by the sacrifices, was not continual in the sense of "one and it's done."
    But there were grace nonetheless. Each and every sacrifice looked foward in faith to the future when the One Sacrifice would be made. Likewise, the sacrifices that came/come after look/ed back in memoirum to the One Sacrifice.
    It was never the sacrifices that saved. It was the faith and obedience with which those sacrifices were made that accessed the grace that brought the mercy that saved.
     
  10. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Excuse me... "didn't have grace in the sense that believers have it" ?? what kind of noise is this??
     
  11. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    and by faith Abraham realized this..:clap:
     
  12. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    Yes, he looked foward to the cross, and that is why he is the father of all who believe! He saw Romans 5, from way back in history, as a true Visionary should.:clap:
     
  13. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    You're excused..:)

    The same kind of "noise" that the apostles and Yeshua talked about when it came to the distintive kind of grace that revealed itself in the Messiah...unless, of course, you consider them liars when they noted that what Yeshua came to bring was true justification/redeemption that COULD NOT occur under the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39-41)
    John 1:18
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 5 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.


    Romans 5:15
    But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
    Romans 5:14-16

    As shared before in #109 and #111 , the aspect of Grace that Yeshua came to bring via His death/life and resurrection is the SPIRIT OF God as a sign of the NEW Covenant....

    For the Holy Spirit came upon others in the OT and yet the Spirit of God did not necessarily DWELL with others---though it dwelt with Christ.

    In John 14:15-30, Jesus made clear that the Holy Spirit WOULD INDWELL Jesus' followers forever, functioning as Jesus' emissary in his physical absence. The Divine presence was promised to Jesus' followers. This does not eman that there was no work of the SPirit of God within believers prior to this time---but rather that the Holy Spirit "will be in you" in a new and more powerful sense after Pentecost.

    John 7:39 is exceptionally clear that the Spirit had NOT been given yet...and as it concerns the work of the Holy Spirit in the world prior to Jesus in His resurrection, one can go to Genesis 1:2. For the Spirit was present in the world hovering over the fact of the waters (Genesis 6:3, Genesis 41:38, Exodus 31:3, Numbers 11:25).


    Some OT Verses speak of the Spirit of God at work within believers prior to the coming of Christ (Numbers 27:18, Deuteronomy 34:9, Ezekiel 2:2, Ezekiel 3:24, Daniel 4:8-9, Daniel 4:18, Daniel 5:11, Micah 3:8, Luke 1:15, Luke 1:41, Luke 1:67). The verse must be understood that the the Spirit had not been given in a FULL and powerful sense that was promised for the New Covenant AGE (Ezekiel 36:26, Ezekiel 37:14, Joel 2:28-29, John 20:22, Acts 2:1-13).....

    John 16:4-15 speaks again on the subject, as it concerns how Jesus made clear that as long as he was on the Earth he could be in only one place at a time...whereas the Holy Spirit would carry on Jesus' ministry over the entire world at all times. In addition, in God's sovereign plan for the unfolding of History, the Holy Spirit would not come in new covenant power and fulness until Jesus returned to Heaven (John 15:16)....and the Helper coming refers back to the anticipatiopn of the pouring out of the Spirit and the inauguration of the Kingdom spoken of in OT Prophetic literature (e.g. Isaiah 11:1-10, Isaiah 32:14-18, Isaiah 42:1-4, Isaiah 44:1-5, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 11:17-20, Joel 2:28-32, etc).


    The Spirit would come to bring convinction to the Word and the promise of the Spirit has a broader application to all believers as the Holy Spirit leads and guides us (Romans 8:14, Galatians 5:18). And this all goes alongside with what we have as being NEW Creations via Yeshua/redeemption---the FULLNESS of what those in the OT could only look to in anticipation ( Numbers 11:28-30 /Numbers 11 , Hebrews 1, Luke 24:26-28 / Luke 24 , Luke 24:43-45 , John 1:44-46 John 1 )

    Of course, there are plenty who are more than comfortable saying that those under the Law of Moses didn't need the Grace that Yeshua came to bring (and thus, salvation apart from the sacrifice/work of Yeshua) since they focus on the aspects of grace that were present in that era---and others take the route of saying it's cool that those who actively deny the necessity of the Grace revealed in Christ's actions in favor of trying to live under the way it was prior to the coming of the Messiah since (in their view) it was good enough.....also known as Dual Covenant theology (a form of universalism, discussed here #56 ). I'd hope you'd not be one of those people...though if you are, so be it. But it's not Biblical/the kind of "noise" the apostles noted needed to be silenced when it came to denying how grace came in its fullness in Yeshua

     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  14. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    Yes, in a nutshell, Romans 5.:)
     
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    so it isn't "new":thumbsup:
     
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    You are making it sound like God's grace comes in flavors.. one for the unbelievers like Nineveh .. and another type for believers..
     
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    So true. The kind of grace given in a specific era is what makes alot of difference in understanding what was brought with Yeshua...and what kind of interaction was made available for those post-Yeshua that wasn't there fully before.

    Hebrews 9-10 sums it up best...one of the best texts on explaining the means that salvation may come for others depending on the timeframe they're in and what we have available.
    Cain and Abel come immediately to mind in the sacrifices they made....alongside the many other sacrifices given when the Lord had to tell his people he was never concerned with them as much as they were since their hearts were not correct.

    WIth Cain and Abel, I remember reading something from my ESV Commentary/Study Bible--and one brilliant insight that stood out to me was the following with Genesis 4...for it gave clarity on how aspects of the Jewish culture were found originally within the beginning:
    The sin of Adam and Eve would have tragic consequences that would become evident in their very own family. Indeed, the larger human family has repeatedly duplicated the dysfunctional dynamics that sin produced in the first human family. A thoughtful consideration of the story of Cain and Abel yields some interesting lessons.

    Adam and Eve had two sons-Cain, the firstborn, and Abel. (They would also have other sons and daughters, too, as mentioned in Genesis 5:4. Yet they apparently had no other sons until the death of Abel, as Seth seems to be the next male child in line, compare v. 25). Cain, we are told, became a tiller of the ground, a farmer. Abel became a shepherd. As to the acceptance of Abel's offering and the rejection of Cain's, some have suggested that there was something wrong in Cain bringing a grain offering. Yet we later see grain offerings as perfectly acceptable to God. Indeed, God said the grain offering was to be burnt "on the altar for a sweet aroma, as a memorial to the Lord. It is most holy, like the sin offering and the trespass offering" (Leviticus 6:15, 17). So what was the problem? Genesis 4:4 tells us that Abel brought from the "firstlings" of his flock, but no such indication of giving God the first or best is attached to Cain's offering in the previous verse. Perhaps this was due to Cain's overall attitude. Verse 5 states, "But [God] did not respect Cain and his offering." Notice that it was not just the offering that God did not respect, but Cain himself! Indeed, that may be the very reason that God did not accept his offering. We are often told in Scripture that God loathes the sacrifices, festivals and even prayers of those who are guilty of great wrong and yet are unrepentant (see Isaiah 1:10-15). When such a person "offers a grain offering, [it is] as if he offers swine's blood" (Isaiah 66:3). God recognized that Cain was on the verge of allowing sin to control him (verse 7)-to manifest itself in real action.

    We are told that Abel, on the other hand, offered a better sacrifice because it was offered by faith, through which he was considered righteous (Hebrews 11:4; Matthew 23:35). Faith comes by hearing God's instruction (Romans 10:17). God's commandments must have been transmitted through Adam and Eve. And God must have even prescribed rules for worship at some point, or else how would Cain and Abel have known to bring sacrifices? Abel was obedient-through faith.

    Cain's rejection roused him to anger and jealousy-though he may have already had these emotions to some degree. In any event, he did not master his urges, as God told him to (verse 7). Instead, he murdered his brother. Later, God confronted Cain: "The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground" (verse 10). When someone is said to cry out to God, the cries are usually for relief, protection or vengeance. Abel's blood, figuratively speaking, cried out for vengeance. This is confirmed by Cain's fear that vengeance would be taken out upon him by anyone who found him, and by God's remarks in verse 15, which explicitly connect vengeance with the context. This is interesting because the book of Hebrews states that the blood of Jesus "speaks better things than that of Abel" (Hebrews 12:24). Why? Because Abel's blood sought vengeance, which was well and just, but Christ's blood offers mercy and forgiveness to those who will accept it, which is better.



    More was discussed here on the issue..

    But on Cain/Abel in what they did, At no point does the Bible suggest that offering work automatically...as if the worshipper's faith and contrition did not matter. For as the Torah makes clear, God desires BROKENESS/Willful humility in order for us to come to Him.....
    Psalm 51:16-18
    16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
    you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
    17 The sacrifices of God are [a] a broken spirit;
    a broken and contrite heart,
    O God, you will not despise.



    This is a teaching throughout the scriptures----especially as it relates to how often God said he RESISTED the proud---but gave grace to the Humble ( Numbers 12:2-4 , 2 Samuel 22:27-29 , 1 Kings 21:28, 2 Kings 22:18-20, 2 Chronicles 12:6-8 , Psalm 18:26-28, Psalm 25:8-10, Psalm 149:3-5, Proverbs 3:34, Isaiah 66:1-3, Luke 18:13-15, James 4:5-7 , 1 Peter 5:4-6, etc )



    And with Cain's fundamentally bad heart, this can be seen in his resentment toward his brother and in his uncoopertative answers to God in the rest of the pasage in Genesis 4. He chose not to love God...or His neighbor. Cain demonstrated an evil heart by his wicked deeds, whereas Abel demonstated a pious heart by his righteous deeds---and His wholeheartely doing as God commanded. That Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and was COMMENDED as righteous for that reason, cannot be ignored. As the Word says in Genesis 4:1-12, Matthew 23:35, Hebrews 11:4, and 1 John 3:11-13

    To focus on the sacrifice itself and not on the heart being transformed---as the New Covenant focuses upon--may miss the point.
    __________________
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  18. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    Something can be seen from afar...but, it was not until the cross, where the new creation came to be. Hope that helps. SH.:)
     
  19. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Romans 5 is truly a powerful scripture...and one of the greatest demonstrations of the ways the grace of the Lord appears in many ways, with what believers in Yeshua have being the greatest. Either one believes it or they don't...but it's one of the foundations of being a Messianic believer in Christ.

    Some of my Messianic Jewish friends said it best at the Rosh Pina Project:


    When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

    Acts 20:24
    However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace.
    Acts 20:23-25

    Romans 5:15
    But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
    Romans 5:14-16

    1 Corinthians 1:4
    [ Thanksgiving ] I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus.​

    1 Corinthians 15:10
    But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
    1 Corinthians 15:9-11

    2 Corinthians 13:14
    May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
    2 Corinthians 13:13-14

    Galatians 2:21
    I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
    Galatians 2:20-21

    Galatians 3:18
    For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise​

    Ephesians 1:7
    In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
    Ephesians 1:6-8

    Titus 2:11
    For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. . 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. ​

    For some good resources on the subject of Grace-Filled Torah Observance, from a real Messianic perspective, one can either go online/investigate the articles entitled the following:

    Messianic Jewish apologist Dr. Michael Brown has noted the same, in regards to how NO MAN--Jew or otherwise---can be saved by observance of the Law alone.....as to say such goes radically counter to what it meant for Christ to die for us. One can go to the Messianic Ministry he does, as seen in his article entitled Can Jewish People Be Saved Without Believing in ... - Ask Dr. Brown---and for video:






    There are many other scholars from the Messianic movement that've long discussed the importance of grace (i.e. Dan Juster, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum of "Ariel Ministries" in his article entitled THE GRACE OF GOD, etc) when it comes to the Torah--but as shared elsewhere ( #87 ), many don't understand what the grace of Yeshua is about because they don't understand what the Law was really about.​
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    It was seen from before the foundation of the world... :wave:
     
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