Is salvation thru Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?

Is salvation through

  • Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?

  • Torah Obedience alone?

  • Faith and Grace alone?

  • Faith alone?

  • Grace alone?

  • None of the above?


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Gxg (G²)

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:thumbsup:

For ANYONE to have real faith requires the intervention of G-d's Grace ;)
I think a case can be made for saying that grace may not intervene in the same way in all cases with others. It may indeed not be standard, especially when it comes to the manner others are saved (be it gradually or immediately).

But when it comes to the issue of salvation/grace, I'm always reminded of the thief on the cross in Luke 23:42-44 /Luke 23 ..as the man had not done anything good in his life outside of trusting in the word of Christ as the Messiah--and the Lord promising him in THAT moment that he'd be in paradise. From what I've studied, the thief next to Yeshua didn't follow Torah - -at least that we know of...yet he was saved. And in some ways, it speaks to how following Torah has nothing to do with salvation in every instance. There were no works he could add to his name, nor could he say he was walking righteously as others who may've been observant. Yet he trusted in Yeshua and at the level he was at, he trusted the Lord (just like ABraham in Genesis 15 and Romans 4 who believed/was declared righteous)...and yet, for others, more may be expected of them when/if they agree to do more.


I'm also reminded of Matthew 20 when it came to the Lord discussing His Mercy and others priding themselves based on how they felt they "deserved" it more for their work--and the Lord noted how no one deserved to be paid at all, with people being rated in differing ways due to what they agreed to be charged on:
Matthew 20:2
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineya
rd.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
 
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Avodat

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Both of these sound like scare tactics to me, what happened to HaShem saying

"Return to me and I will return to you"?


Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD-- Malachi

This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Return to me,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the LORD Almighty.--- Zechariah

To the priests and to the people.


Better blame G_d then - I quoted his words. I didn't make them up. Go read them.
 
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Henaynei

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Easy G (G²);59579523 said:
...But when it comes to the issue of salvation/grace, I'm always reminded of the thief on the cross in Luke 23:42-44 /Luke 23 ..as the man had not done anything good in his life outside of trusting in the word of Christ as the Messiah--and the Lord promising him in THAT moment that he'd be in paradise. From what I've studied, the thief next to Yeshua didn't follow Torah - -at least that we know of...yet he was saved. And in some ways, it speaks to how following Torah has nothing to do with salvation in every instance...

I'm also reminded of Matthew 20 when it came to the Lord discussing His Mercy and others priding themselves based on how they felt they "deserved" it more for their work--
Salvation has NEVER been by works/observance; it has ALWAYS been by faith through grace. Works/observances done with true kavanah (gold and silver) are the fruit/proof of a saving grace. Works/observances to EARN salvation are wood, hay and stubble "good for nothing more than to be thrown into the fire and consumed."
b'Shalom
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Salvation has NEVER been by works/observance; it has ALWAYS been by faith through grace. Works/observances done with true kavanah (gold and silver) are the fruit/proof of a saving grace. Works/observances to EARN salvation are wood, hay and stubble "good for nothing more than to be thrown into the fire and consumed."
b'Shalom
It is interesting, in light of how many things have been noted over the years with others saying certain works based in Torah are the means one becomes saved--and if discussing grace as you mentioned it, it has often been dismissed as being "cheap"/"too easy" when it comes to saying that one cannot merit salvation, even though they can live their lives in honor of it. But on what you noted, spot on. Thanks for sharing:)
 
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Lulav

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OK folks. I wanted to offer a few more choices than other salvation polls. I think we can all agree that Y'shua is the Word and that John, having no other Word than Torah, meant Y'shua is Torah or at least Tanakh which includes Torah. For the purpose of this poll, when we say Torah, we also mean the Word made flesh. So:

Is salvation thru Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?
Is salvation thru Torah Obedience alone?
Is salvation thru Faith and Grace alone?
Is salvation thru Faith alone?
Is salvation thru Grace alone?
Is salvation thru none of the above?

This is a POLL based on defined terms. If you do not find a choice that fits your beliefs then choose the last option, 'none of the above' and if you so choose, explain your choice. Please do not debate the answers that are given in support of a participants choice. Please do not debate the definitions of terms used in this poll. If you have different definitions than these offered, then feel free to include them in your post. Please keep your posts on topic and brief.

The terms used in this poll are to be defined as follows for the purpose of this thread:
Salvation: Salvation is deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.
Torah Observance: Following the instruction of the Mosaic Law as found in the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures, as expounded on by the Messiah Y'shua and as it applies in context to the individual believer.
Faith:Faith is both the substance of things hoped for and the evidence that things exist that are not yet perceived with the senses.
Grace:Grace in this context is the 'chesed' that is extended by our Father in heaven toward His children. It is defined for the sake of this thread as the redemption of Israel, the preservation of life and resurrection from death, the quickening of the spirit, the redemption from sin and the keeping of covenants made with man and Himself for the redemption of man and His Creation.
Feel free to expand on your beliefs in a way that supports your choice. Please do so in a way that does not directly violate the Christian Forums Community Rules or the Statement of Purpose for this Faith Group.

Hi Talmidim, I will have to say none of the above. That is because I can't find one equivalent with what James said :Faith without works is dead.

If it is dead it is not life, nor salvation from death, right?

I would choose one that said,

Torah and Faith

(Because I believe giving us the Torah so we know how to walk uprightly before him is the epitome of Grace, He could have left us floundering down here to our own destruction).
 
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jcpro

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Easy G (G²);59580495 said:
It is interesting, in light of how many things have been noted over the years with others saying certain works based in Torah are the means one becomes saved--and if discussing grace as you mentioned it, it has often been dismissed as being "cheap"/"too easy" when it comes to saying that one cannot merit salvation, even though they can live their lives in honor of it. But on what you noted, spot on. Thanks for sharing:)
I challenge anybody to be righteous without doing the right thing. This grace versus works, Torah, etc. is a silly debate. "Good works" are the result of following G--d's commandments and/or sincere repentance.
1 Samuel 24:13 As the old saying goes, 'From evildoers come evil deeds,' so my hand will not touch you. or Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
 
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Yahudim

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Hi Talmidim, I will have to say none of the above. That is because I can't find one equivalent with what James said :Faith without works is dead.

If it is dead it is not life, nor salvation from death, right?

I would choose one that said,

Torah and Faith

(Because I believe giving us the Torah so we know how to walk uprightly before him is the epitome of Grace, He could have left us floundering down here to our own destruction).
I agree. But not chesed?
 
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Yahudim

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I challenge anybody to be righteous without doing the right thing. This grace versus works, Torah, etc. is a silly debate. "Good works" are the result of following G--d's commandments and/or sincere repentance.
1 Samuel 24:13 As the old saying goes, 'From evildoers come evil deeds,' so my hand will not touch you. or Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
Hi jcpro,

That's why this isn't supposed to be a debate. It's a MJ ONLY POLL where people can express their views without fear of harassment (in theory). It is also why I put Torah observance (to keep them and do them, remember?) along with faith and grace (chesed from Him) as the first selection. Hope that helps.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I challenge anybody to be righteous without doing the right thing. This grace versus works, Torah, etc. is a silly debate. "Good works" are the result of following G--d's commandments and/or sincere repentance.

1 Samuel 24:13 As the old saying goes, 'From evildoers come evil deeds,' so my hand will not touch you. or Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them.
I agree, as the polarization between grace vs works is often unecessary...and in terms of salvation, grace impacting a person will change how they live..like the woman who anointed the Lord with perfume/her tears in the latter part of Luke 7 when Yeshua said "He who has been forgiven much loves much." To what degree one does works is up to the Lord, as evidenced by the thief at the cross who did little works compared to others and yet what he did was enough for the Lord..and the same with others like Cain/Abel, who both brought sacrifices prescribed later by the Mosaic law and yet Cain's was rejected because his right actions/works were devoid from proper motives.

Samson in his lifestyle is another interesting case study, in light of how often the Lord came through for that individual/saved him despite how buck-wild he was in his living---with the power of the Lord coming upon him and Him often using it for wrong reasons/purposes...yet the Lord worked with him where he was at. With alot of things, I think salvation is much more complex than the options given in the poll..and it's why I chose the last option. But to be clear, I'm not against the mindset that one cannot do evil deeds consistently/think they're in the clear. Ezekiel notes that plainly:

Ezekiel 33:12
“Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous
Ezekiel 33:11-13 /Ezekiel 33
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Works/observances to EARN salvation are wood, hay and stubble "good for nothing more than to be thrown into the fire and consumed."
b'Shalom

1 Corinthians 3:19
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
 
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Lulav

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Originally Posted by Lulav
Both of these sound like scare tactics to me, what happened to HaShem saying

"Return to me and I will return to you"?


Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD-- Malachi

This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Return to me,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the LORD Almighty.--- Zechariah

To the priests and to the people.​


Better blame G_d then - I quoted his words. I didn't make them up. Go read them.
Blame G-d? for what? What is it you want me to read?
 
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Lulav

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I agree. But not chesed?

Originally Posted by Lulav
Hi Talmidim, I will have to say none of the above. That is because I can't find one equivalent with what James said :Faith without works is dead.

If it is dead it is not life, nor salvation from death, right?

I would choose one that said,

Torah and Faith

(Because I believe giving us the Torah (so we know how to walk uprightly before him) is the epitome of Grace, He could have left us floundering down here to our own destruction).


His loving kindness was shown when he gave us the Torah, I thought I explained that in my post above. :)
 
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Avodat

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Blame G-d? for what? What is it you want me to read?

If you think quoting G_d's word is scare tactics then it's down to him, not me. I didn't invent the words. I suggested you go read to check that I have not added to or detracted from what he says.
 
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