Is salvation thru Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?

[ananda]

...
this would become a very hairy subject and every hair would be split, ad nauseum. 'Tis the nature of the Messianic Group.

What's new?

 

[Avodat]

There are only 10 poll options maximum. I chose to represent the major definitions used to express these choices while including a 'none of the above' so that you could have a chance to express your views. This is a Messianic Only thread so I knew 2 things going in. The first is that there would be a few that would not vote along the lines of the major definitions normally used when discussing these matters. The second being that this would become a very hairy subject and every hair would be split, ad nauseum. 'Tis the nature of the Messianic Group.

Leave it to you Easy. So, just curious, but how many 'once saved always saved' Messianics do you know of on this board?

I have some flack jackets if they are needed!

 

[yedida]

There are only 10 poll options maximum. I chose to represent the major definitions used to express these choices while including a 'none of the above' so that you could have a chance to express your views. This is a Messianic Only thread so I knew 2 things going in. The first is that there would be a few that would not vote along the lines of the major definitions normally used when discussing these matters. The second being that this would become a very hairy subject and every hair would be split, ad nauseum. 'Tis the nature of the Messianic Group.

Leave it to you Easy. So, just curious, but how many 'once saved always saved' Messianics do you know of on this board?

Oh, we have a few traditional mainstream Christians who, for one reason or another, choose to fly the Scroll.

 

[Yahudim]

Oh, we have a few traditional mainstream Christians who, for one reason or another, choose to fly the Scroll.

I always thought that the dividing line was the belief that Torah obedience was a basic tenet of faith for the Messianic believer. Otherwise there is no distinction. Hebrew Roots is simply a method of study. Torah observance is even reflected in the 'House Rules'.

No matter the flavor, Christians as a matter of course do not accept the authority of the 'Old Testament'. So, without that distinction, every believer in Messiah is a 'Messianic'. I dare say that if some person or persons unknown wished to dilute, hamstring and cause division among this Faith Group, ignoring this distinction would certainly be the way.

 

[Avodat]

I always thought that the dividing line was the belief that Torah obedience was a basic tenet of faith for the Messianic believer. Otherwise there is no distinction. Hebrew Roots is simply a method of study. Torah observance is even reflected in the 'House Rules'.

No matter the flavor, Christians as a matter of course do not accept the authority of the 'Old Testament'. So, without that distinction, every believer in Messiah is a 'Messianic'. I dare say that if some person or persons unknown wished to dilute, hamstring and cause division among this Faith Group, ignoring this distinction would certainly be the way.

What is your evidence for this generalisation?

 

[Yahudim]

What is your evidence for this generalisation?

That is just it Avodat. It is a generalization. What group of Christians can you name that are Torah observant? I thought that they were called Messianic!

Even Christians that follow the Ten, only pay lip service to the rest. Most fall on the side of Torah being 'nailed to the cross'. So please, educate me. Where is this generalization unfair?

 

[Avodat]

That is just it Avodat. It is a generalization. What group of Christians can you name that are Torah observant? I thought that they were called Messianic!

Even Christians that follow the Ten, only pay lip service to the rest. Most fall on the side of Torah being 'nailed to the cross'. So please, educate me. Where is this generalization wrong?

There are many evangelical Christian fellowships within which individuals are Torah observant and they teach from a Messianic perspective. Most belong to denominations where it is not possible to re-name the Church from being Christian to Messianic - but it becomes very obvious when you enter. I know of at least two very large Churches, without even stopping to think hard, near where I used to live that are almost totally Messianic but they have to retain their denominational identity. I have served in such a Church as well. I have found very, very, few Christians (fellow ministers or lay people) who would know what 'Torah nailed to the Cross' was meant to be about. Although a majority of Christians would say that the Law is redundant because of grace (mis-reading Paul's words), but that is not all by any means in the real world. I think perhaps you are projecting Americanisms onto the rest of the world; the rest of the world seems to want to differ.

 

[Lulav]

How many books did G-d tell man to write down?

 

[Seeking Him]

There are many evangelical Christian fellowships within which individuals are Torah observant and they teach from a Messianic perspective. Most belong to denominations where it is not possible to re-name the Church from being Christian to Messianic - but it becomes very obvious when you enter. I know of at least two very large Churches, without even stopping to think hard, near where I used to live that are almost totally Messianic but they have to retain their denominational identity. I have served in such a Church as well. I have found very, very, few Christians (fellow ministers or lay people) who would know what 'Torah nailed to the Cross' was meant to be about. Although a majority of Christians would say that the Law is redundant because of grace (mis-reading Paul's words), but that is not all by any means in the real world. I think perhaps you are projecting Americanisms onto the rest of the world; the rest of the world seems to want to differ.

Hello..

I have an idea.

Perhaps you would post one verse at a time, and we can discuss the contents of said verse. (See red above) This would be helpful, because there are different views in the messianic camp here.

We can discuss whether it was Mosaic law, or oral law in each passage, in a clear objective manner, then we can decide on which camp is correct. The "Paul meant Torah" side of the isle, vs the "Paul just meant oral law" side of the isle.

Then, after a consensus of posts, we can decide if it is by grace, or Torah, with the obvious deduction that Paul had a view on said issue, the chosen instrument of Acts 9:15. Again, sice you mentioned Paul, we are on topic, and my post just seeks to know what is what.

Again, this is not pro or anti anything, just trying to see what each verse meant, in a contextual manner, and also, after you post one, I will post one, so we can have a fair and to the point discussion. Again, we are just trying to talk scripture. SH.

 

[Lulav]

You guys all seem blinded to what you are actually saying. In saying that we must be obedient to G_d you are claiming that the ONLY bit we need to be obedient to is Torah:

Torah is the first part of the Jewish bible. It is the central and most important document of Judaism and has been used by Jews through the ages. Torah refers to the five books of Moses which are known in as Chameesha Choomshey Torah. These are: Bresheit (Genesis), Shemot (Exodus), Vayicra (Leviticus), Bamidbar (Numbers), and Devarim (Deuteronomy).

The logic of this says that apart from these we can ignore ALL the rest of The Book. So what about all the 30 or so books in what you call the 'old' testament and those in the 'new'? By what authority are you saying all these other parts of The Book are invalid as far as obedience to G_d is concerned?

Then may I refer you to two of the questions: salvation is through obedience to Torah...?

If people lose their fixation on what is NOT being said by me, and see the logic of the wording that IS written, it excludes all other Scripture. If the intention is to include all other Scripture then why not be up front and say so? Why not just say that "salvation is through obedience to the whole of G_d's word"? What is so hard about that? Restricting the question to Torah alone, as the wording does, throws out all the rest of the Tanakh and the B'rit Hadashah. Why?

If you are hinting that parts of The Book are NOT to be regarded as Scripture, please say which they are (a question I have asked a few times and it gets hedged around)?

Yedida gave a good example, here's another one.

First you must remember that the Torah was written down for one nation. These were individual, family, tribal and national laws. There were also the laws that pertained to the priesthood. No one person could ever obey all of them because no one person is capable of such.
The other books were written to compliment the Torah but not to add or subtract from it. David, Solomon, Moses, all extolled the virtues of the Torah and G-ds law and his love. The prophets were the ones raised up to bring the people back to G-d and they could only do this through keeping Torah. There are histories in there as well.

Now picture your local town. What written documents does it have?

It has a judicial book of the towns laws. These laws apply to the government, and the citizens as well as visitors or 'strangers'. There would also be cases of events happening as well as court records. Along with this they would have documents or papers on the history of the founding of the town, the towns founders, the boundaries of the town, etc.

This is how you need to look at Torah, or G-ds word.

 

[Lulav]

Hebrews speaks of those who having tasted all the goodness of Yeshua, then give it up, cannot return. But Matthew also speaks of those who pretend to be good believers and do all sorts of things but on the great day of trial Yeshua will send them away because he doesn't know them.

Both of these sound like scare tactics to me, what happened to HaShem saying

"Return to me and I will return to you"?


Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD-- Malachi

This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Return to me,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the LORD Almighty.--- Zechariah

To the priests and to the people.

 

[Yahudim]

There are many evangelical Christian fellowships within which individuals are Torah observant and they teach from a Messianic perspective. Most belong to denominations where it is not possible to re-name the Church from being Christian to Messianic - but it becomes very obvious when you enter. I know of at least two very large Churches, without even stopping to think hard, near where I used to live that are almost totally Messianic but they have to retain their denominational identity. I have served in such a Church as well. I have found very, very, few Christians (fellow ministers or lay people) who would know what 'Torah nailed to the Cross' was meant to be about. Although a majority of Christians would say that the Law is redundant because of grace (mis-reading Paul's words), but that is not all by any means in the real world. I think perhaps you are projecting Americanisms onto the rest of the world; the rest of the world seems to want to differ.

Well it is nice to know that there are un-named congregations that are branching away from their denominational roots. That's why it's called the Messianic movement. But that does not speak to denominational doctrines.

This discussion has drifted far from the OP. So let's cut to the chase: This is an MJ ONLY thread to POLL major salvation doctrinal beliefs. So rather than stir up every distinction you can think of and niggle every point, why don't you just VOTE from the choices given (including none of the above) and say what you believe. That would be appreciated.

 

[Yahudim]

Oh, we have a few traditional mainstream Christians who, for one reason or another, choose to fly the Scroll.

Yeah, I get that. But this is a poll. The idea is to VOTE and STATE YOUR BELIEFS AS TO WHY. This is NOT supposed to be a debate about every doctrine in scripture. Especially not a debate with some people that would rather have a root canal than answer a direct question with a direct response. Sheesh If that were to happen...

 

[yedida]

Yeah, I get that. But this is a poll. The idea is to VOTE and STATE YOUR BELIEFS AS TO WHY. This is NOT supposed to be a debate about every doctrine in scripture. Especially not a debate with some people that would rather have a root canal than answer a direct question with a direct response. Sheesh If that were to happen...

Could we even stand it? I don't know what the problem is. If someone doesn't like the choices no one is forcing them to vote. They are free to close the thread and mosey on.
(BTW is there a reason we can't see who voted for what (cos earlier we could), or is my computer having a bit of a problem?)

 

[Yahudim]

Could we even stand it? I don't know what the problem is. If someone doesn't like the choices no one is forcing them to vote. They are free to close the thread and mosey on.
(BTW is there a reason we can't see who voted for what (cos earlier we could), or is my computer having a bit of a problem?)

Click on the number of votes in any category. The link takes you to the screen you want.

 

[yedida]

Click on the number of votes in any category. The link takes you to the screen you want.

Thanks! Wouldn't you know I clicked on everything but that? It's time for bed.....

 

[Henaynei]

The Torah Observant Jews truly felt that they qualified for salvation and yet they ignored the Lord---and as such, they destined themselves to be disqualified from salvation

Do be circumspect and careful when making blanket statements about Jewish observance.
The Torah Observant Jews "ignore" HaShem no more or less than the majority of Christians. I have met many observant Jews who have more kavanah (humble servant heart focus and attitude toward HaShem) than almost any Gentile believer I've ever met.
And since G-d looks on the heart and in the Shakrit observant Jews call upon the Name of the L-rd for "Yeshua" (henei El yeshua ti - behold G-d is my salvation; and elsewhere that G-d is their "Rock," their "Deliverer" and "Redeemer") I would be hard pressed to make such a blanket statement as made above for I can only judge the fruit of their lives, not their heart.
be very cautious boasting against the "natural branches."

 

[Henaynei]

True kavanah in obedience to the Instructions of HaShem is the fruit of faith through grace (see Yaacov's book).

 

[Henaynei]

Agreed. On the same page with ya--and I'm guessing because of what you noted here, it's why you chose the same answer as I did in the poll.....if not, let me know

For ANYONE to have real faith requires the intervention of G-d's Grace

 

[Gxg (G²)]

True kavanah in obedience to the Instructions of HaShem is the fruit of faith through grace (see Yaacov's book).

Grace always makes the difference, although it may play out differently in all cases