Is Salvation From Hell In The Atonement?

[Andrew]

Paul preaches the gospel to King Agrippa and:

Acts 26:24-29
Now as he thus made his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, "Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad!"

25 But he said, "I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak the words of truth and reason. 26 For the king, before whom I also speak freely, knows these things; for I am convinced that none of these things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe."

28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian."

29 And Paul said,"I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains."

Well, the gospel was preached, by one of the best, mind you, yet, sadly, King Agrippa wasn't saved, at least not there and then and we don't know if he ever was.

So do we then conclude that God doesn't want to save/heal everyone, that salvation/healing is not a promise, and that God saves/heals some and leaves others unsaved/sick?

Many Christians who don't believe that God wants to heal all becos they've seen the sick remain sick, will on the other hand say that God wants all saved, yet they forget that King Agrippa remained 'sick'. So is there something wrong with Paul's gospel?

 

[Trish1947]

Paul preaches the gospel to King Agrippa and:

Acts 26:24-29
Now as he thus made his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, "Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad!"

25 But he said, "I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak the words of truth and reason. 26 For the king, before whom I also speak freely, knows these things; for I am convinced that none of these things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe."

28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian."

29 And Paul said,"I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains."

Well, the gospel was preached, by one of the best, mind you, yet, sadly, King Agrippa wasn't saved, at least not there and then and we don't know if he ever was.

So do we then conclude that God doesn't want to save/heal everyone, that salvation/healing is not a promise, and that God saves/heals some and leaves others unsaved/sick?

Many Christians who don't believe that God wants to heal all becos they've seen the sick remain sick, will on the other hand say that God wants all saved, yet they forget that King Agrippa remained 'sick'. So is there something wrong with Paul's gospel?

What we learn from this is, no matter how perfectly it's preached, a person that is only almost persuaded isn't enough. The same with healing, being almost persuaded isn't going to get you healed.
Reminds me of that old song. "Almost Persuaded, yet to believe"..

 

[JimfromOhio]

Paul preaches the gospel to King Agrippa and:

Acts 26:24-29
Now as he thus made his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, "Paul, you are beside yourself! Much learning is driving you mad!"

25 But he said, "I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak the words of truth and reason. 26 For the king, before whom I also speak freely, knows these things; for I am convinced that none of these things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe."

28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian."

29 And Paul said,"I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains."

Well, the gospel was preached, by one of the best, mind you, yet, sadly, King Agrippa wasn't saved, at least not there and then and we don't know if he ever was.

So do we then conclude that God doesn't want to save/heal everyone, that salvation/healing is not a promise, and that God saves/heals some and leaves others unsaved/sick?

Many Christians who don't believe that God wants to heal all becos they've seen the sick remain sick, will on the other hand say that God wants all saved, yet they forget that King Agrippa remained 'sick'. So is there something wrong with Paul's gospel?

Putting salvation and healing on the same level tells me that this doctrines teaches those who are not healed are not saved.

Be careful what you say.

Christ's main atonement is Salvation (healing is part of it but not today but time to come).

A person is free to make whatever decisions he/she want apart from any external coercion. The unregenerate (unsaved) have that freedom. A spiritually dead person cannot will himself to live anymore than a physically dead person can will himself to come back to life. If the dead person (spiritually or physically) is to come back to life he/she will have to be resurrected by God. In the spiritual realm this means he/she must be born from above. Its a choice in matter of responding to the Holy Spirit's conviction in our hearts to be saved. Jesus said in John 16:8 "When He (Holy Spirit) comes, He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment." Later in the New Testament, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction."

I should remind people what Jesus said His main purpose:

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John 3:15
that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 4:14
but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 4:36
Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:39
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:25
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 12:50
I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

John 17:2
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The Apostles have said the same thing:
Titus 1:2
a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

1 John 2:25
And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

 

[Trish1947]

Putting salvation and healing on the same level tells me that this doctrines teaches those who are not healed are not saved.

Be careful what you say.

What this tells me is that you understood nothing that was said.
It takes no more faith to believe for your salvation than it does for healing. God is interested in the whole man, spirit, soul, and body. I have always wondered why people could have faith to believe for eternal life and the saving of the soul, and not understand one whit that He cares about your body. He healed too many to assume He didn't care about the physical. To come up with the idea by some on here that He healed people just to prove who He was, is baloney. He had compassion and healed them all that came to Him. He wanted them whole. Not to prove who He was.

 

[Andrew]

Putting salvation and healing on the same level tells me that this doctrines teaches those who are not healed are not saved.

Be careful what you say.

Christ's main atonement is Salvation (healing is part of it but not today but time to come).

You missed the point of the thread. I was using King Agrippa's example to answer the questions people have about healing today.

(healing is part of it but not today but time to come)

?? Look up the words "salvation" and "saved" in any concordance. The Greek word is sozo, and it does not just mean saved from hell, but preservation, healing, wholeness etc. It is a very rich word. Saved from hell is just a very "limited" understanding of what Christ has done for us.


Thayer's

NT:4982

soozoo

to save, to keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

a. universally, tina, one (from injury or peril); to save a suffering one (from perishing), e. g. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health: Matthew 9:22
b. to save Matthew 1:21
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)


Strong's

NT:4982

sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):


KJV - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

[JimfromOhio]

What this tells me is that you understood nothing that was said.
It takes no more faith to believe for your salvation than it does for healing. God is interested in the whole man, spirit, soul, and body. I have always wondered why people could have faith to believe for eternal life and the saving of the soul, and not understand one whit that He cares about your body. He healed too many to assume He didn't care about the physical. To come up with the idea by some on here that He healed people just to prove who He was, is baloney. He had compassion and healed them all. Not to prove who He was.

People have made the word "Faith" more complicated than it should be. We exercise faith because He awakened our dead heart by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Faith comes as a result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit-He quickens our hearts to believe. Apart from the new birth, there can be no true faith. True saving faith involves repentance from one's sin and a complete trust in the work of Christ to save from sin and make one righteous. the most vivid of those figurative references is found in Jesus' words from the Sermon on the Mount: "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied" (Matthew 5:6). In that verse, Jesus explains that true faith is equal to hungering and thirsting for faith in God.

 

[Trish1947]

People have made the word "Faith" more complicated than it should be. We exercise faith because He awakened our dead heart by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Faith comes as a result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit-He quickens our hearts to believe. Apart from the new birth, there can be no true faith. True saving faith involves repentance from one's sin and a complete trust in the work of Christ to save from sin and make one righteous. the most vivid of those figurative references is found in Jesus' words from the Sermon on the Mount: "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied" (Matthew 5:6). In that verse, Jesus explains that true faith is equal to hungering and thirsting for faith in God.

Now that everyone posting on here is pretty convienced that this has already happened in their lives. I have to ask, does the Holy Spirit teach us to trust in sickness, or Jesus as our healer? We have to start somewhere after the saving of our souls.

 

[JimfromOhio]

You missed the point of the thread. I was using King Agrippa's example to answer the questions people have about healing today.



?? Look up the words "salvation" and "saved" in any concordance. The Greek word is sozo, and it does not just mean saved from hell, but preservation, healing, wholeness etc. It is a very rich word. Saved from hell is just a very "limited" understanding of what Christ has done for us.

Yes preservation, healing and wholeness otherwise the Gospel would be in VAIN.

This is one of my favorite Chapters of the Bible: (NIV)

1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of Christ
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

The Resurrection Body
35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 55"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Healing is what I believe. What I don't agree its the "timing" of the healing. Christ's Atonement for sin is available to ALL but only few will acknowledge the conviction of the Holy Spirit to accept God's gift. The most pressing virus is sin. Sin is the basic problem because sin has to do with a person's soul. Christ actually paid the penalty; suffered the wrath of God, and was a perfect and satisfactory atonement for the sins of all of who would ever believe. My issue is this: if there was physical healing in the atonement, then it was an incomplete atonement. Of course, someday I will die. Now, if that’s how it is with the promise of my physical healing, where is my hope for the promise of my spiritual healing? Is that the same thing? Once someone start defining the work of the atonement in temporal terms, they have a problem, because, even now, I am saved, I am righteous by virtue of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, but I’m certainly not what I’m going to be.

Is Healing part of Christ's Atonement, YES.. but not in WoF's terms. If we are physically healed today, we would not physically die, EVER.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Now that everyone posting on here is pretty convienced that this has already happened in their lives. I have to ask, does the Holy Spirit teach us to trust in sickness, or Jesus as our healer? We have to start somewhere after the saving of our souls.

Jesus heals our physical being at HIS timing and will. NOT ours.

 

[Atlantians]

So do we then conclude that God doesn't want to save/heal everyone, that salvation/healing is not a promise, and that God saves/heals some and leaves others unsaved/sick?

Many Christians who don't believe that God wants to heal all becos they've seen the sick remain sick, will on the other hand say that God wants all saved, yet they forget that King Agrippa remained 'sick'. So is there something wrong with Paul's gospel?

I will take issue with several things:
First Salvation and healing are not equal. To say so is absolute lunacy.
You are saying that freedom from eternal separation from God, given to us thanks to a brutal and horrible sacrifice lovingly accepted by our own God, is equal or comparable to the repair of our mere bodies?!
Especially considering that we are guaranteed resurrection unto new and perfect bodies like unto what ours should have been!
Absurd!
The physical body as it is now is marred by the result of sin and will remain imperfect.
Name one person on earth with a perfect body.
Not one person on earth has one so don’t bother.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

(And by the way, the lashes he received alone were a death sentence. They would have tore into his flesh and exposed the majority of his back to the elements. He would have bleed to death from those wounds without treatment, and probably was already in shock as he was going to the cross.)

He brutally beaten and died for the horrible things I have done, even I!
And even you!
Not for our sicknesses and diseases! Those are insignificant! Especially considering the fact that we will be granted pure and perfect bodies for life eternal!

We will receive perfect bodies at the resurrection,
not before.
Minor limitations and injuries and sicknesses will be healed before then, but no one will be restored to what they should be.
The very fact that our bodies degenerate (age) until we die is an imperfection in our genes that allow cell degeneration without restoration.
If healing was assured to the believer before the resurrection, why is James not still alive? He did not die of wounds suffered. He died of old age, or sicknesses.
He died cause his body gave out do to the imperfections inherent in our non-resurrection bodies. If healing was in the atonement as you claim, then faithful Christians, or at least a few of them, would not be aging.

Healing of our current bodies is not guaranteed. It happens for God's glory and by his will, but if his will, would be furthered through us having sicknesses then we will have sicknesses.
Paul said just that in:
2 Corinthians 12:9-10
9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


And several other verses in his letters.

Another thing I take issue with:
Your signature.
“We are not free from sin, until we are free to sin.”?!
That is absurd. Where on earth did you get that from?
Here is a verse for you:
Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Now that everyone posting on here is pretty convienced that this has already happened in their lives. I have to ask, does the Holy Spirit teach us to trust in sickness, or Jesus as our healer? We have to start somewhere after the saving of our souls.

We are to trust in Jesus period, Ie: this thing: .
He is our savior and our healer, but he heals our soul first and our body second and he died for our soul not our body!

The Holy Spirit tought through Paul to worship Jesus and trust him in Spite of our sicknesses!
And in the midst of them!
Whether we are healed or not! Amen.

 

[Trish1947]

I will take issue with several things:
First Salvation and healing are not equal. To say so is absolute lunacy.
You are saying that freedom from eternal separation from God, given to us thanks to a brutal and horrible sacrifice lovingly accepted by our own God, is equal or comparable to the repair of our mere bodies?!
Especially considering that we are guaranteed resurrection unto new and perfect bodies like unto what ours should have been!
Absurd!
The physical body as it is now is marred by the result of sin and will remain imperfect.
Name one person on earth with a perfect body.
Not one person on earth has one so don’t bother.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

(And by the way, the lashes he received alone were a death sentence. They would have tore into his flesh and exposed the majority of his back to the elements. He would have bleed to death from those wounds without treatment, and probably was already in shock as he was going to the cross.)

He brutally beaten and died for the horrible things I have done, even I!
And even you!
Not for our sicknesses and diseases! Those are insignificant! Especially considering the fact that we will be granted pure and perfect bodies for life eternal!

We will receive perfect bodies at the resurrection,
not before.
Minor limitations and injuries and sicknesses will be healed before then, but no one will be restored to what they should be.
The very fact that our bodies degenerate (age) until we die is an imperfection in our genes that allow cell degeneration without restoration.
If healing was assured to the believer before the resurrection, why is James not still alive? He did not die of wounds suffered. He died of old age, or sicknesses.
He died cause his body gave out do to the imperfections inherent in our non-resurrection bodies. If healing was in the atonement as you claim, then faithful Christians, or at least a few of them, would not be aging.

Healing of our current bodies is not guaranteed. It happens for God's glory and by his will, but if his will, would be furthered through us having sicknesses then we will have sicknesses.
Paul said just that in:
2 Corinthians 12:9-10
9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


And several other verses in his letters.

Another thing I take issue with:
Your signature.
“We are not free from sin, until we are free to sin.”?!
That is absurd. Where on earth did you get that from?
Here is a verse for you:
Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?


We are to trust in Jesus period, Ie: this thing: .
He is our savior and our healer, but he heals our soul first and our body second and he died for our soul not our body!

The Holy Spirit tought through Paul to worship Jesus and trust him in Spite of our sicknesses!
And in the midst of them!
Whether we are healed or not! Amen.

Thus the reason for healing. Because the body needs it. There would be no reason for the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, the prayer of faith by the elders saving the sick, Jesus telling us to go out and do the same, why bother, your dying anyway. This is what is really absurd.

 

[Atlantians]

?? Look up the words "salvation" and "saved" in any concordance. The Greek word is sozo, and it does not just mean saved from hell, but preservation, healing, wholeness etc. It is a very rich word. Saved from hell is just a very "limited" understanding of what Christ has done for us.

Salvation is the Greek word 'soteria':

1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation 1) of Messianic salvation
'Soteria' is derived from 'soter' meaning:
1) saviour, deliverer, preserver

Saved is from the Greek word Sozo meaning:

1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
a) one (from injury or peril)

1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health 1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

Unfortunately for your argument, sozo is always used in the sense of spiritual salvation. (the one exception being when the people were mocking Jesus as he hung on the cross. besides that, it is always used in the sense of spiritual deliverence from our sins and the punishment thereof.)
Likewise, the Greek word 'therapeuo' is also only ever used in relation to spiritual and emotional healing.
Never physical healing.

The Greek word 'iaomai' meaning:

1) to serve, do service 2) to heal, cure, restore to health
Is the word used for physically healing throughout the new testament.

Thus the reason for healing. Because the body needs it. There would be no reason for the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, the prayer of faith by the elders saving the sick, Jesus telling us to go out and do the same, why bother, your dying anyway. This is what is really absurd.

Yes, healings occur, and yes the body needs it, and yes it is silly to say "Oh don't get healing cause you will die anyway."
But it is far more absurd to say "Oh, Christ, God himself, suffered punishment for our physical maladies."

My point was not that people are not healed, but rather no one is entirely healed until the resurrection.
If healing is provided for in the atonement, which is to say that Christ was beaten to the brink of death so cancer could be healed even though it is already well within his power and justice to heal cancer anyway, then people shouldn't be dieing cause they would have been healed.

Healing is provided for in response to alignment with God's will under many circumstances, but like Paul and Job, sometimes God is glorified more when we persevere through our sicknesses instead of being healed.
And frankly speaking, whether we are healed or not, we should take pleasure in glorifying God through our weaknesses!

And again, healing is not provided for in the atonement.
However, we are promised that we all will be granted perfect resurrection bodies.

Healing is a separate aspect of the will of God.
It is not tied to the work of atonement on the cross.
It is tied to the glorifying of God and the proving of His power.
And frankly, sometimes being sick and overcoming by His spiritual strength is more glorifying then being healed.
And it also is a great chance to grow in trust in God.

When is it harder to trust God?
When you are well or ill?
On the same note, which would grow your faith more, trusting him when all is well,
or trusting him when all is dark and gloomy?

Food for thought.

 

[Trish1947]

Salvation is the Greek word 'soteria':

1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation 1) of Messianic salvation
'Soteria' is derived from 'soter' meaning:
1) saviour, deliverer, preserver

Saved is from the Greek word Sozo meaning:

1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
a) one (from injury or peril)

1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health 1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

Unfortunately for your argument, sozo is always used in the sense of spiritual salvation. (the one exception being when the people were mocking Jesus as he hung on the cross. besides that, it is always used in the sense of spiritual deliverence from our sins and the punishment thereof.)
Likewise, the Greek word 'therapeuo' is also only ever used in relation to spiritual and emotional healing.
Never physical healing.

The Greek word 'iaomai' meaning:

1) to serve, do service 2) to heal, cure, restore to health
Is the word used for physically healing throughout the new testament.



Yes, healings occur, and yes the body needs it, and yes it is silly to say "Oh don't get healing cause you will die anyway."
But it is far more absurd to say "Oh, Christ, God himself, suffered punishment for our physical maladies."

My point was not that people are not healed, but rather no one is entirely healed until the resurrection.
If healing is provided for in the atonement, which is to say that Christ was beaten to the brink of death so cancer could be healed even though it is already well within his power and justice to heal cancer anyway, then people shouldn't be dieing cause they would have been healed.

Healing is provided for in response to alignment with God's will under many circumstances, but like Paul and Job, sometimes God is glorified more when we persevere through our sicknesses instead of being healed.
And frankly speaking, whether we are healed or not, we should take pleasure in glorifying God through our weaknesses!

And again, healing is not provided for in the atonement.
However, we are promised that we all will be granted perfect resurrection bodies.

Healing is a separate aspect of the will of God.
It is not tied to the work of atonement on the cross.
It is tied to the glorifying of God and the proving of His power.
And frankly, sometimes being sick and overcoming by His spiritual strength is more glorifying then being healed.
And it also is a great chance to grow in trust in God.

When is it harder to trust God?
When you are well or ill?
On the same note, which would grow your faith more, trusting him when all is well,
or trusting him when all is dark and gloomy?

Food for thought.

So we must accept that Matthew had a terrible understanding of Isaiah.
Sicknesses and infirmities has to do with the body.

Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Some want to say that this was just a fulfillment of the healing part of Jesus ministry to show people who He was. This is false, He showed compassion on them and healed them all.

The keyword is OUR in the scripture, unless we want to believe that Matthew and all the Apostles was sick once, and Jesus healed them, making this scripture their's alone.

 

[Atlantians]

So we must accept that Matthew had a terrible understanding of Isaiah.
Sicknesses and infirmities has to do with the body.

Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Some want to say that this was just a fulfillment of the healing part of Jesus ministry to show people who He was. This is false, He showed compassion on them and healed them all.

The keyword is OUR in the scripture, unless we want to believe that Matthew and all the Apostles was sick once, and Jesus healed them, making this scripture their's alone.

Your taking that out of context. Mathew was saying that the healings Jesus was doing was to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah concearning taking away our sicknesses and baring away our diseases.
That counts for all of Jesus time on Earth.

That was fulfilled, that prophesy.

but that prophesy has nothing to do with the atonement of sin. The prophesy Isaiah made right after that one does.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

That verse is the prophesy of the atonement for sin.

Healing is not in the atonement.
It is a seperate and lesser grace from God.

Claiming that physical healing is on par with spiritual salvation is absurd. and it degrades the significance of the latter.

 

[Trish1947]

Your taking that out of context. Mathew was saying that the healings Jesus was doing was to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah concearning taking away our sicknesses and baring away our diseases.
That counts for all of Jesus time on Earth.

That was fulfilled, that prophesy.

but that prophesy has nothing to do with the atonement of sin. The prophesy Isaiah made right after that one does.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

That verse is the prophesy of the atonement for sin.

Healing is not in the atonement.
It is a seperate and lesser grace from God.

Claiming that physical healing is on par with spiritual salvation is absurd. and it degrades the significance of the latter.

And sometimes it's worth a persons while to just believe the Word like a child should.

 

[Andrew]

I will take issue with several things:
First Salvation and healing are not equal. To say so is absolute lunacy.

I have never said that they were equal. But they are inseparable. Often,Jesus forgave sins then healed. Isa 53 talks about Christ bearing our sins as well as our sicknesses and pains. To the Hebrew mind, salvation includes wholenss and health.

You are saying that freedom from eternal separation from God, given to us thanks to a brutal and horrible sacrifice lovingly accepted by our own God, is equal or comparable to the repair of our mere bodies?!

Don't be so super spiritual and religious to the point that you think God doesn't care about the physical suffering/healing of someone dying of cancer. 2/3s of Jesus' ministry had to do with healing the sick.

Especially considering that we are guaranteed resurrection unto new and perfect bodies like unto what ours should have been!

Absurd!

So we suffer sickness in the sweet by and by. That's more absurd and unbiblical.

The physical body as it is now is marred by the result of sin and will remain imperfect.
Name one person on earth with a perfect body.
Not one person on earth has one so don’t bother.

According to your faith, be it unto you.

He brutally beaten and died for the horrible things I have done, even I!
And even you!
Not for our sicknesses and diseases! Those are insignificant! Especially considering the fact that we will be granted pure and perfect bodies for life eternal!

Tell those little children born mute, deaf or blind or with some incurable disease that it's "insignificant" and to wait patiently for the resurrection. Are you so religious you have no sympathy for the sick and dying?

 

[Andrew]

If you believe that we are redeemed from the curse of the law, then you must consistently believe that we are redeemed from all types of sickness.

Want me to prove it? It's very easy.

 

[lismore]

?? Look up the words "salvation" and "saved" in any concordance. The Greek word is sozo, and it does not just mean saved from hell, but preservation, healing, wholeness etc. It is a very rich word. Saved from hell is just a very "limited" understanding of what Christ has done for us.

Thats a fair point

If you also look at the word 'hell'. Its a Norse word. The bible was written in Greek/Hebrew.

 

[lismore]

Don't be so super spiritual and religious to the point that you think God doesn't care about the physical suffering/healing of someone dying of cancer. 2/3s of Jesus' ministry had to do with healing the sick.

There is a thread in the WOF forum about how WOF teachers are against God's promise of Eternal Security. God has a problem with a believer getting a cold but he doesnt mind sending them to hell for all eternity because they slip up sometime?

Faith or 'mind over matter', changing your confession is not the bottom line in healing. Its the goodness of the Lord. If God is limited by us, then he is not God.

 

[Trish1947]

There is a thread in the WOF forum about how WOF teachers are against God's promise of Eternal Security. God has a problem with a believer getting a cold but he doesnt mind sending them to hell for all eternity because they slip up sometime?

Faith or 'mind over matter', changing your confession is not the bottom line in healing. Its the goodness of the Lord. If God is limited by us, then he is not God.

I find it funny when people use the word "WOF", to discribe the entire belief from A to Z, for some group. Who are the "WOF"? I'm WOF, and I do believe in eternal security. Oops!! another non-comformist. We're not one celled animals without separate understandings.