• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Is "salvation by hostile surrender" a trend?

Discussion in 'Semper Reformanda' started by Paulomycin, Feb 28, 2021.

  1. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

    +318
    United States
    Reformed
    This is one of those situations where I encounter a line of reasoning from an Arminian and dismiss it as a one-off, only to see it repeated by another Arminian a few months later.

    The way I'm hearing it, the concept goes something like this:

    - Bob is initially hostile to Arminian god, but is capable of "free will." <-- The equivocal "get out of sovereignty free" card).

    - After being beat-up by circumstances in life, or whatever, Bob makes the final decision to choose Arminian Jesus, but it's only one of hostile surrender. Always. Thus, he chooses righteousness, but he did it out of bad motives, so he can't pat himself on the back for his free-will decision (lol).

    - Arminian god, eternally chained to the end of the timeline from the beginning of the foundation of the world, looks through his magic telescope and is taken completely by surprise, "Praise ME! I had no idea that Bob would choose me! How wonderful of Bob to finally do that!"

    - Arminian god then shows gracious forgiveness in response to such a hostile surrender, and offers Bob far more than he expected, including eternal life and oh yeah a relationship with Arminian Jesus.

    Questions:

    - Is this a new concept? A new "flavor" of Arminianism?
    - Who popularized this?
    - What's the history behind it?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,605
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    I've only seen it a couple of times that I recall. Once a few days ago (the one I told you about and you called it a Trainwreck), once today.

    Astounding to me that they seem to proffer it as a concession to the logic of Calvinism, that a man is incapable of pleasing God or submitting to God while he is hostile to God. They MUST defend freewill at all costs. So they are still finding a way to say the person surrendered (for whatever reason --fear, whatever-- without regeneration. Then God hands them faith and regeneration and love for God, I guess.
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,521
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Arminianism depicts God as a bully who threatens to torture people forever unless they "say, uncle". Or make whatever "free will" choice their denomination says they must make. And to make it worse, they depict God as purveyor of everlasting pleasure if they submit and give in to his offer.

    This is not Christianity in the least.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  4. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,605
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    I agree.

    That said, I cannot condemn even those who hold to it, even those who insist on it. I can condemn what they teach, but if the Gospel is the work of God from first to last, then these (most of them) simply don't think their narrative of how salvation works implies works on their part.

    Some others such as we have run into on CF get carried away defending free will, not realizing where they have gone. I don't see that they are not among the Elect, for that, but that they don't know what they are saying. If I did, I would have to condemn the majority of my relatives whom I love as family, many of whom have gone on to be with the Lord.

    One in particular has parted from me in disgust and apparent hatred for saying that I would rather be a robot, than a free willed moral agent, because I would only choose evil if God had not regenerated me. He wrote me back a scathing post, mostly arguing that only by freewill can choice be genuine, and that he had no more time for me. He hasn't spoken to me since. He left me no way to tell him I didn't think I was a robot.

    I guess what I wanted to say here, though, is that though we do see that the work of God alone is completely the essence of the Gospel, from first to last, we too have very little idea of what that means and how it works. We see a difference between Reformed Theology and Arminian to be that of day and night, but I would guess that God sees the same difference between the facts and what we understand about them. My Arminian-leaning relatives don't even realize their Gospel is Arminian, but my apprehension of the Gospel is hardly without error. Thank God for the words of the Word, that are truth no matter who speaks them or even tries to explain them.

    I am certainly unworthy to speak his Word.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  5. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

    +318
    United States
    Reformed
    Agreed 100%. What's worse is that I've seen atheists take advantage of this concept.
     
  6. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,605
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    Yep. Using it as representative of what we believe and/or what the Bible teaches.
     
  7. Paulomycin

    Paulomycin Well-Known Member

    +318
    United States
    Reformed
    Exactly. Which could very well be the product of a very poor religious upbringing on their part.

    I honestly believe that, in spite of their best intentions, the children's ministry of my church led me to atheism as a young adult. If they were only capable of answering my questions up-front, I wouldn't have gotten into that mess to begin with.
     
  8. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,605
    United States
    Reformed
    Widowed
    Several MK's PK's and regular churgoers children of mu acquaintance have been disgusted with the "Christian God" --my son, one of them. If God had not already changed my heart I would have abandoned the faith, but instead I was driven to find Sovereignty. I thank God for the pain that took me there.
     
Loading...