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Featured Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Quasar92, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that it's not either/or, but both/and. For:

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    2 Timothy 4:1 ¶I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
    2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
     
  2. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    So my brothers, you also died to the law, through the body of Christ so that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God.
    For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bringing forth fruit for death.
    But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code
    Rom7:4-6

    So you believe the above only refers to the initial act of salvation, for Paul goes on to give NC law as the example concerning what he has just written/ thou shalt not covet.
    And you say you only die to NC law, unto righteousness at the point of initial salvation. That is ridiculous

    And when Paul states you are cursed if you rely on observing the law, you believe this refers to OC law that could be faultlessly obeyed. Again ridiculous, law that could faultlessly be obeyed wouldn't bring you to be cursed.

    You say:

    The power of sin is the law 1cor 15:56

    Refers to non applicable OC law.

    Again ridiculous, for the letter of that law could faultlessly be obeyed( phil3:6)

    There is no power of sin in law you can follow without breaking it/ committing sin.

    So when Paul says:

    For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
    Rom6:14

    This solely refers to law that could faultlessly be obeyed, and therefore suin need not be the master of you if you were under it..

    I am afraid you are a classic example of someone who can selectively quote the letter without understanding the message.
    It happens all the time. It did in Jesus day also. I tire if this conversation
    Goodbye
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    This refers to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which was not of faith (Galatians 3:12) and was in effect while the Holy Spirit "was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified" (John 7:39).

    Romans 7:4-6 isn't contradicting that Christians are under the New Covenant law, which they must obey by faith and the Spirit if they are to be ultimately saved:

    Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    Before he came into faith, the apostle Paul was "blameless" with regard to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Philippians 3:6) in the sense of his self-righteousness, "mine own righteousness" (Philippians 3:9), as opposed to being righteous in the sight of God, which required faith, even in Old Covenant times (Galatians 3:11, Philippians 3:9, Habakkuk 2:4).

    Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    This refers to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Christians are under the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ:

    1 Corinthians 9:21 . . . being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ . . .

    John 14:15 ¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.
     
  4. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Rom 7:4-6 refers to OC Mosaic law?

    Rom7:4-6 refers to the TC. Thou shalt not covet was given as the example of why Paul had to die to the law.

    Do some believe not coveting isn't part of NC law?

    They must be Antinomian!

    Rom6:14 refers to OC mosaic law?

    Lol. Torah could be faultlessly obeyed under the OC. It was the moral law that couldn't be!

    Therefore, you didn't need grace under the NC, for sin not to have dominion over you concerning OC law that could be faultlessly obeyed
    Grace was needed concerning the moral law.
    Do some believe the moral law isn't part of NC law?
    They must be Antinomian!
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  5. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    When people state we are under the NC law of Christ. Does this mean each and every literal command of Christ must be obeyed to be righteous?
    And when the following is quoted:
    If ye love me keep my Commandments.
    Does the above refer to each and every literal command of Christ?
    If so.

    Can we take it that anyone who would invite friends and family home for a meal, rather than the poor, lame, blind and beggars, cannot be righteous or love Christ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Amein.
    Little children love this, YHWH'S WORD,
    and obey without even thinking about it. (they would never even think to disobey).....
    Children of YHWH , that is.

    Scholars , the educated ones, often choke on it, and don't obey
    the Father.
    Someone else is more important to them than the Father of Jesus.
     
  7. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Do you not invite friends and family home for a meal, but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars?
     
  8. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Carry each others burdens( love them) and so FULFILL the law of Christ Gal6:2

    Reeling the letter off pat from the top of your head, when it has no bearing on the reality of your own life is?
     
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Yes.

    Note that nothing restricts the law in Romans 7:4-6 to only the Ten Commandments.

    Yes.

    Note that the New Covenant law forbids all manner of sins to those who want to be ultimately saved (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8), not just the sins mentioned in the Ten Commandments.
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that children of YHWH, that is, Christians, must be "careful to maintain good works" (Titus 3:8). That is, they won't automatically do good works without even thinking about it.

    Also, Christians can wrongly employ their free will to not only think about disobeying God, but to actually disobey, even to the ultimate loss of their salvation. For:

    James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    This is addressing "brethren" Christians, telling them if any of them wanders away from the truth and falls back into a course of sinful living, and then a fellow Christian succeeds in exhorting that sinful Christian to repent from his sin (Hebrews 3:13), the second Christian will save the first from ultimately losing his salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    To "save a soul from death" (James 5:19-20) means to save a soul from eternal suffering in hell (Matthew 10:28, Hebrews 10:39).
     
  11. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    So you accept the TC are NC law?
    And you accept the TC are part of what is being mentioned in rom 7:4-6
    For Paul carries on from rom 7:4-6. In the next five verses he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law of righteousness. The example he gave was: thou shalt not covet, which is one of the TC.
    Therefore, rom 7:4-6 refers to OC law as well as NC law. For the TC is applicable law under both covenants.

    So your repeatedly stating Paul is only referring to OC law when he speaks of dying to the law( of righteousness) is proved to be false.

    Case proven. You are totally confused
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  12. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Just about everyone who insists the Christian is under a law of righteousness accepts the TC are applicable NC law. Paul referred to the law written on stone/ TC as the letter that kills and the ministry of death and condemnation in 2cor3:3.
    Why?
    Because you cannot be justified/ righteous by striving to obey that law. For Paul fully understood what that law demanded.
    These people who insist you obey the law to be justified/ righteous before God cannot, and do not practice what they preach. They reel the letter off from their heads that has no bearing on the reality of their own lives.
    They demand of you what they do not demand of themselves. As they do when they insist you must obey every literal command of Christ.
    Don't be fooled by them, or they will crush you with their demands.

    The teachers of the law and Pharisees sit in Moses seat, so you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
    They tie up heavy loads and place them on men's shoulders. But they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them
    Matt23:2-4
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
  13. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's not 'and'.

    The law is written on our hearts. Period.

    The Law of Moses is NOT part of the New Covenant. Two covenants, Old Covenant (law), New Covenant (not law).
     
  14. Bible_Boy

    Bible_Boy New Member

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    This is a very popular subject matter, and I would like to share some information about it. Please allow me to do so in the light of the scriptures.....

    First and foremost, it is true that faith is essential for salvation, for without faith, we can never be saved. However, faith alone is not enough, neither does works alone. They have to come together, or be combined to each other, in order for salvation to happen. Therefore, we cannot claim that faith alone could save us, nor can we claim that our works could save us. It is the combination of the two that will enable us to receive God's approval and eventually, lead to our salvation. But how do we know?

    SCRIPTURAL PROOFS

    1. James 2:26--"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

    Comment: For our faith to be alive, it should be coupled with works. Without works, our faith will be considered dead.

    2. Matthew 7:21--"Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

    Comment: Those who call upon the Lord, no doubt, have genuine faith or belief, or else, why would they call the Lord in the first place? However, their strong faith was not enough to allow them to enter God's kingdom. Why not? Because something was missing. What was missing? Works! But what kind of works? Well, it should be the right kind of works, not the kind of works that they did when they prophesied in Jesus' name and when they performed powerful works in Jesus' name.

    Jesus clarified the kind of works necessary to enter God's kingdom. He said: "...but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Yes, only those doing the will of the Father will enter the kingdom! So, if you do the Father's will, you will enter the kingdom....If you don't do the Father's will, then you will not enter the kingdom....It's that simple!

    Therefore, the real formula for salvation is genuine faith (true belief in God and Christ) + works (doing the Father's will) = salvation (entrance into God's kingdom).

    Want more proof? Consider Judas Iscariot. He surely had genuine faith when he was chosen by Jesus Christ to be one of the 12 apostles. We all know that God and Christ both have the ability to read people's hearts, and no doubt, they saw genuine faith in Judas' heart. In fact the Bible called him a disciple (Luke 6:13), even before he was chosen to be an apostle. Do you know what the term "disciple" means? Many dictionaries define this term as "student", "follower", and "adherent" ("adherent", which means a "believer" or a "true believer"). Note the account on Luke 6:12-16:

    12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; 14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, 16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

    Therefore, if it is true that a person with genuine faith alone will be saved, why not Judas? If it is true that a person with genuine faith will definitely manifest works that will justify his faith, why not Judas? The answer? Well, let us go back to our real formula for salvation....Judas Iscariot got disqualified to enter God's kingdom because he had #1 but failed to do #2. Yes, works, the right kind, is a necessary ingredient to add to our faith in order to gain salvation!

    Genuine faith (true belief in God and Christ) + Works (doing the Father's will) = Salvation (entrance into God's kingdom)
     
  15. def

    def Member Supporter

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    I think your formula needs tinkering. Do we do the Father's will before entering the kingdom? I thought people enter the kingdom to do God's will.
     
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Yes, insofar as post #297 above says.

    But some Christians mistakenly say "the TC are NC law" [i.e. the Ten Commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are part of the New Covenant/New Testament law of Jesus Christ] means we have to keep the letter of the sabbath of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

    But the truth is that Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, don't have to keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For even the letter of the 10 commandments written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13) was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, Exodus 31:15b), which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), in which Christians are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).

    Saying Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as mistaken as saying Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If Christians keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking they have to because it's part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, they're as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as Christians who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking they have to because it's part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:2). They've become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3). They've placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

    So no Christian should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8). Christians need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Christians must never judge other Christians for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus Christ along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Romans 7:6, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

    For its letter was merely a shadow; now it all comes down to Jesus Christ Himself (Colossians 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30), which all Christians enter by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works, as in those done apart from abiding in Jesus (John 15:4-5), every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).

    --

    Also, Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2). And they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum. The early Church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day, the first day of the week, was the day on which Jesus Christ physically resurrected (Mark 16:9) from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John the apostle. Compare John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).

    But it's not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It's also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It's also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5). Christians are never to judge each other over this matter but are simply to do what they believe Jesus Christ wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point isn't for Christians to esteem days but to focus on the person of Jesus Himself (Colossians 2:16-17).

    Also, how do those who think they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant sabbath, keep the letter of the sabbath of Leviticus 25?
     
  17. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    No, for Romans 7:4-6 refers only to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

    Note that nothing the apostle Paul says contradicts that Christians must obey the New Covenant law if they are to obtain ultimate salvation.

    For note that the talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30) is about the judgment of Christians (of all times) by their individual works, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient Christians entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which won't begin until after the Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient Christians losing their salvation at Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46) and entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift through the darkness of outer space.

    *******

    Note that this refers to grievous, man-made burdens placed on people, not to the non-grievous burden which God has placed on Christians in the Bible (1 John 5:3, Matthew 11:30; 1 Thessalonians 4:2; 1 Corinthians 14:37).
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right, in the sense of the letter of the Law of Moses.

    For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), while the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (Leviticus 23:19), while the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, including the letter of the 10 commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8) was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

    The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been completely and forever done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8-9b) which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b) and which permits Christians to remove the veil and behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

    But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5) or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any Christians are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus Christ will profit them nothing. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

    Note that the New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37).
     
  19. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Thou shalt not covet/ lust is incorporated into NC law. It is applicable NC law. You have accepted that is part of law spoken of in rom7:4-6

    Therefore when Paul speaks of:

    the believer dying to the law

    Sinfull passions are aroused in you by the law if you live under it.

    The Christian is released from the law
    (Rom7:4-6)

    he is speaking of applicable NC law.
    So when you say, Paul is only referring to OC Mosaic law, you are proved to be wrong.
    What you don't understand is, how the Christian cannot be under righteousness of observing NC law and at the same time not have a licence to sin. Hence your contradictions
     
  20. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    You are contradicting yourself all over the place!
    You again say rom7:4-6 only refers to the letter of OC law. Yet at the same time you admit it refers to the TC

    Is not committing murder part of NC law?
    Is not taking the Lord's name in vain part of NC law?
    Is not stealing part of NC law?
    Is not committing adultery part of NC law?
    Is not coveting/ lusting part of NC law?

    You are thrashing around wildly trying to justify your inconsistencies

    And BTW
    Matt 23:2-4 does NOT refer to grevious man made burdens. It refers to law the Pharisees preached but did not practice. They faultlessly practiced their man made rules. You are in error.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
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