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Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Quasar92, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    The power of sin is the law( of righteousness(1cor:15:56)

    Paul the Christian looking back at his life as a pharisee after the law came to him:

    What shall we say then, is the law sin? Nay, I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law had said: Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the Commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
    For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived( or sin consciousness sprang to life) and I died/ felt condemned.
    And the commandment which was ordained to life( if I obeyed it) I found to be unto death( for I could not keep it)
    For sin, taking occasion by the Commandment deceived me, and by it slew me.
    Wherefore the law is Holy, and the commandment Holy, just and good.
    Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good, that sin through the commandment might become exceeding sinful
    Rom7:7-13

    The Apostle paul preached a message the humble and sincere are desperate for, those crushed by impossible loads. But those who think they can be good enough for God, will pass that message by and refuse to accept it, even being offended by it
     
  2. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for making the case for salvation by God's grace alone, by faith alone and not according to any works by which one might conclude they can be good enough for God.
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Christians do have righteousness before God by observing His New Covenant/New Testament law, for:

    1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    Note that Christians are blessed by observing God's New Covenant/New Testament law, for:

    James 1:25 . . . whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    Note that the power of sin cannot be what God has placed in our heart, for:

    James 1:13 ¶Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
    17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    Note that the Christian is not released from what God has placed in his heart:

    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Note that nothing the apostle Paul preached contradicted the verses quoted above.
     
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that if Christians commit a sin, they can become faultless again, for:

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    2 Corinthians 7:1 ¶Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
    15 Because the law worketh wrath . . .

    This is referring to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which is not of faith (Galatians 3:12).
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that it's not either/or, but both/and. For:

    1 Peter 1:17 . . . if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear . . .

    John 14:15 ¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    This is referring to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which is not of faith (Galatians 3:12).
     
  6. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Of course you have to reject it.
    You have been given scripture after scripture that plainly states the Christian has no righteousness of observing the law. And scripture that proves that includes new covenant law.

    Pauls core message is: you will live righteously if you die to a righteousness of observing the law. You cannot understand that, it is a pity

    No Christian is blessed by relying on observing the law to be righteous before God, rather they are cursed( gal3:10)

    No, the power of sin has not been placed in the Christians heart. For the power of sin is a law of righteousness. The Christian is not under a righteousness of observing the law

    Christians are released from a righteousness of observing the law placed in their heart. The law itself stands unshakeable

    Many can only partially quote the letter, they cannot understand the true spiritual message contained in that letter
     
  7. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Note:
    For by one sacrifice he made FOREVER PERFECT, those who are BEING made Holy.
    Heb10:14

    If you are BEING made Holy you are not perfect in your flesh, if you were you would already be perfectly Holy. But God sees you as perfect in the sense he sees Christ's sacrifice for you at calvary, not your imperfections concerning righteousness.


    Once again you err in stating rom 4:14&rom3:10&11 only refer to OC law not applicable under NC law.
    OC law not applicable under NC law could be faultlessly obeyed( phil3:6) therefore you wouldn't be cursed by relying on obeying it would you.
    And once again. In rom 7:4-6 Paul states:
    The Christian must die to the law( of righteousness) to live for God.
    Sinful passions are aroused in you by the law if you live under it
    The Christian is released from the law.
    WHICH LAW is Paul referring to in the above?

    He then goes on in the next five verses to give a personal example from his own life as to why the Christian must die to the law. The example he gave was: thou shalt not covet, one of the TC which is applicable NC law.

    People can reel off the letter without understanding the true message contained in it. They did in Jesus day
     
  8. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

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    Peace be with you.

    Salvation is by Good Works of Faith.

    Faith Saves.

    Good Work Saves.

    The Christian Faith is a Faith of Good Works to redeem sinners from death.

    Repentance - Good Work of Faith.

    Turning from your sins - Good Work of Faith.

    Confess your sins - Good Work of Faith.

    Prayer - Good Work of Faith.


    Don't listen to people that tell you "works do not save."


    The Apostles went around doing Good Works of Faith.


    Jesus Christ went around doing Good Works of Faith.

    They were Men of Good Action, not men of no action.


    "Works do not save Salvation theology" is just Nonsense designed to trick you into inaction and jeopardise your Salvation.

    All you will be left with is faith in your head only which produces nothing but death.

    God bless you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  9. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    How many good works must a person do to be sure of attaining to heaven?

    If no one knows, how can you be sure you will have done enough to enter heaven?
     
  10. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

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    Peace be with you.

    0 good work of faith is for the "works do not save people."

    They have faith in God only in their head.

    1 good work of faith is better than 0 good work of faith.

    2 good works of faith is better than 1 good work of faith.

    3 good works of faith is better than 2 good works of faith.

    The more good works of faith the better.

    You don't do good works of faith to enter Heaven.

    You do good works of faith because you love Jesus Christ who love to do good works of faith.

    Jesus Christ who love to do good works of faith will do the Judging.

    God bless you.
     
  11. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    You didn't answer the question.
    Try this one.

    What is the core foundation upon which the New Covenant stands?
     
  12. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

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    Peace be with you.

    Stuart Lawrence, I have seen you asking that question before.

    Should I go find your answer to paste it here for you?

    God bless you.
     
  13. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Old Soul Supporter

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    Faith and love...
     
  14. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I was hoping you might know the answer yourself, but, due to the comments you have made about faith and works, it seems to me your problem is in your lack of understanding of the core foundation upon which the Christian faith stands.
    BTW
    My answer is based on that which the Bible plainly states
     
  15. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    As Paul states:
    All the Christian needs is faith working through love. So in that sense, absolutely.
    But the core foundation upon which the Christian faith stands is twofold.
    The born again Christian no longer has an external, written down law, but an internal law, written on their minds and placed on their hearts. These people, and no one else has their sins and lawless deeds remembered no more.
    For Christ will be no one's saviour from sin unless they in their heart want to obey his Father. Those with the law in their hearts, obviously in their hearts want to obey God
     
  16. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Old Soul Supporter

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    Works can strengthen and reinforce your faith, and many of desperately need that...

    But works in the Form of good deeds does this best...
     
  17. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to the following Scriptures, works are of no value to a person until ATER they have received their salvation:


    Eph.2:1 "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha]">[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

    And may God Bless you too, my friend.


    Quasar92
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That would apply only to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For example:

    Hebrews 7:11 ¶If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    It would include the New Covenant law only insofar as initial salvation is concerned (Ephesians 2:8-9), not ultimate salvation, for:

    Romans 2:6 [God] will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath . . .

    Note that Galatians 3:10 applies only to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, not the New Covenant law (James 1:25).

    *******

    Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    This, like Hebrews 10:10, means the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus Christ's body on the Cross has sanctified and perfected Christians. But the perfect tense doesn't denote permanence. For example, if someone says in the perfect tense: "I have washed my child", this doesn't mean the child has been made permanently clean. For after having been washed, the child can wrongly employ his free will to go out and play in the mud. Similarly, washed Christians (1 Corinthians 6:11) can wrongly employ their free will to go back to wallowing in the mire of sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Corinthians 12:20-21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27; Luke 12:45-46). Also, the "forever" in Hebrews 10:14 doesn't denote a permanent perfection, but means the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus is perpetually applied in the ongoing and eternal process by which Christians are "being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14, see the original Greek tense), so long as they're repenting from and confessing to God every sin they commit (1 John 1:9,7, Hebrews 10:26-29).
     
  19. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Jesus Christ gives each Christian his or her own spiritual work to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:28-30; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). And He gives different Christians different amounts of spiritual talents (Matthew 25:15). So it's not possible for all Christians to do the same spiritual work for Jesus, or to accomplish the same amount for Him. And so any one Christian shouldn't (as sometimes happens) judge any other Christian for not doing the same spiritual work he or she is doing, or for not accomplishing as much as he or she is accomplishing (Romans 14:4). Nor should any Christian think the spiritual work which Jesus has given him or her is unnecessary and not a real part of the operation of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:14-30). But there's still no room for complacency, because for those Christians who have been given much spiritual talent by God, much will be required of them by God (Luke 12:48b). And for those Christians who haven't been given as much spiritual talent by God, they're still expected to accomplish something for Him (Galatians 6:4-5), and not just to sit back and do nothing for Him (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
     
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    The New Covenant Gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is we can be initially saved by believing Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23) and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

    And the New Covenant Gospel is we can be ultimately saved if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from any sin we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom we've ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and don't blaspheme God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), and don't remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and don't worship the future Antichrist or his image or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).
     
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