Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works

[Quasar92]

This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about.

James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation.

They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.From: www.gotquestions.org


Quasar92

 

[Acts2:38]

This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about.

James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation.

They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.From: www.gotquestions.org


Quasar92

Informative thread/post. Brings up an important topic that has practically been militarized (heavy debating-nice way to put it).

Because I am not pulling facts, I am speaking of my opinion as to why someone would claim "faith alone". I believe people wish to say "faith alone" saves is because they can distance themselves from the "baptism" issue. For some reason they wish to say Acts 2:38 the "for" means "because of". They also down play Mark 16:16 which is perplexing to me since it says straight up and clear.

Why they do not wish to just obey the gospel command of baptism for salvation, I do not know. I should say I do not understand since the sentences about baptism are so clear a child could understand. My one thought as to why they think that way is all the "what if" type questions such as "what if frank dies before baptism can be done". I have a wonderful response to that "what if".

Anyway great post.

 

[Quasar92]

Informative thread/post. Brings up an important topic that has practically been militarized (heavy debating-nice way to put it).

Because I am not pulling facts, I am speaking of my opinion as to why someone would claim "faith alone". I believe people wish to say "faith alone" saves is because they can distance themselves from the "baptism" issue. For some reason they wish to say Acts 2:38 the "for" means "because of". They also down play Mark 16:16 which is perplexing to me since it says straight up and clear.

Why they do not wish to just obey the gospel command of baptism for salvation, I do not know. I should say I do not understand since the sentences about baptism are so clear a child could understand. My one thought as to why they think that way is all the "what if" type questions such as "what if frank dies before baptism can be done". I have a wonderful response to that "what if".

Anyway great post.

Greetings, are you aware of the following act of baptism?

What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.

First Corinthians 12:12–13 is the central passage in the Bible regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13). Notice that we “all” have been baptized by the Spirit—all believers have received the baptism, synonymous with salvation, and it is not a special experience for only a few. While Romans 6:1–4 does not mention specifically the Spirit of God, it does describe the believer’s position before God in language similar to the 1 Corinthians passage: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”

The following facts are necessary to help solidify our understanding of Spirit baptism: First, 1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states that all have been baptized, just as all been given the Spirit to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit). Second, nowhere in Scripture are believers told to be baptized with, in or by the Spirit, or in any sense to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This indicates that all believers have had this experience. Third, Ephesians 4:5 seems to refer to Spirit baptism. If this is the case, Spirit baptism is the reality for every believer, just as “one faith” and “one Father” are.

In conclusion, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does two things, 1) it joins us to the body of Christ, and 2) it actualizes our co-crucifixion with Christ. Being in His body means we are risen with Him to newness of life (Romans 6:4). We should then exercise our spiritual gifts to keep that body functioning properly as stated in the context of 1 Corinthians 12:13. Experiencing the one Spirit baptism serves as the basis for keeping the unity of the church, as in the context of Ephesians 4:5. Being associated with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection through Spirit baptism establishes the basis for our separation from the power of indwelling sin and our walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1-10; Colossians 2:12).

Recommended Resource: The Wonderful Spirit-Filled Life by Charles Stanley


Quasar92

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

forks

 

[Soyeong]

This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about.

James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation.

They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.From: www.gotquestions.org


Quasar92

-- Author unknown

The amazing story of Charles Blondin, a famous French tightrope walker, is a wonderful illustration of what true faith is.

Blondin's greatest fame came on September 14, 1860, when he became the first person to cross a tightrope stretched 11,000 feet (over a quarter of a mile) across the mighty Niagara Falls. People from both Canada and America came from miles away to see this great feat.

He walked across, 160 feet above the falls, several times... each time with a different daring feat - once in a sack, on stilts, on a bicycle, in the dark, and blindfolded. One time he even carried a stove and cooked an omelet in the middle of the rope!

A large crowd gathered and the buzz of excitement ran along both sides of the river bank. The crowd “Oohed and Aahed!” as Blondin carefully walked across - one dangerous step after another - pushing a wheelbarrow holding a sack of potatoes.

Then a one point, he asked for the participation of a volunteer. Upon reaching the other side, the crowd's applause was louder than the roar of the falls!

Blondin suddenly stopped and addressed his audience: "Do you believe I can carry a person across in this wheelbarrow?"

The crowd enthusiastically yelled, "Yes! You are the greatest tightrope walker in the world. We believe!"

"Okay," said Blondin, "Who wants to get into the wheelbarrow."

As far as the Blondin story goes, no one did at the time!

---

True faith is what leads us to get in the wheelbarrow and what requires our obedience. The example we have of what it means to believe is of Abraham offering his son Isaac, where Abraham believed God's promise that through Isaac his offspring would be reckoned above everything else in this world so much so that he reasons that if he killed Isaac, then God would raise him from the dead. Belief leads to action and we are saved by having a faith that leads us to obedience.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about.

This demonstrates the common, modern Protestant misunderstanding of the Reformation.

The chief doctrine of the Reformation is justification by grace alone through faith. The Reformers did not teach "salvation just by believing in Jesus", they taught that salvation is the work of God, by His grace alone, through Christ's all-sufficient work alone, which is appropriated to us by God alone, through the Means of His grace, by which He creates and gives us faith--trust--and by which we are reckoned justified because of Christ.

To teach that we are saved by believing certain things is to teach salvation by works. To place the onus on ourselves, rather than the work of Christ and God's gracious activity alone, is to teach that human effort contributes or is the cause of our salvation, and that is the precise antithesis of the chief doctrine of the Reformation.

So, are we saved by believing the right things or by doing the right things? Neither. We are saved by Jesus Christ, crucified and risen from the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Man is saved by faith in Christ's works.

 

[Bible2+]

Quasar92 said in post #1:

Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works

Initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Quasar92 said in post #1:

James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life.

Note that initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) doesn't automatically produce good works. That's why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it's possible for Christians to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

*******

Quasar92 said in post #3:

Notice that we “all” have been baptized by the Spirit . . .

1 Corinthians 12:13 shows there's only one body of Christ, which consists of both Jewish and Gentile Christians.

It doesn't refer to Holy Spirit baptism, which occurs sometime subsequent to salvation (Acts 19:2a), and which involves the Holy Spirit coming on a Christian in an empowering way (Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 19:6, Acts 10:44-46), but rather refers figuratively to how the Holy Spirit has "immersed" (the meaning of "baptized") every Christian into the one body of Jesus Christ via every Christian having the one faith in Jesus Christ (cf. Ephesians 4:4-5).

Everyone, both Christians and non-Christians, has some minimal measure of God's Spirit by which they're able to exist (Acts 17:28, Psalms 104:30) and have human consciousness (John 1:9). Christians have some greater measure of the Spirit, by which they're able to understand and believe the Bible (1 Corinthians 2:12-16, John 20:22, Luke 24:45-47). Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:16, Acts 19:2a,6) have an even greater measure of the Spirit, by which they're able to operate in one or more of the Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11). Because Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1,14), He has the Spirit in an infinite amount, beyond measure (John 3:34).

 

[Bible2+]

Acts2:38 said in post #2:

I believe people wish to say "faith alone" saves is because they can distance themselves from the "baptism" issue.

Some people indeed believe baptism can't be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation isn't based on works, but on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for Christians, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so Christians are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to their baptism (Acts 8:36-38, John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so Christians will be ultimately saved by their works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it's usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become Christians. That's why the apostle Paul asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Christians usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many Christians haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle: "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many Christians haven't yet asked for it because they've come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say it's no longer in effect. Christians can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

 

[Bible2+]

ViaCrucis said in post #6:

So, are we saved by believing the right things or by doing the right things? Neither. We are saved by Jesus Christ, crucified and risen from the dead.

We are saved by all three.

That is, only Jesus Christ can save people (John 14:6, John 3:36) by His sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25) and the ability He gives Christians to continue in the faith (Hebrews 12:2), to continue to do good works (John 15:5), to continue to repent from any sin they commit (John 8:34-36), and to overcome to the end (Revelation 12:11), by their own choice. But there's no assurance every Christian will choose to do these things to the end.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know they're actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person can't become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[def]

....
Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works.
Quasar92

I looked at Ephesians 2:8-9 carefully, and nowhere did Paul say justification is by faith alone. What version of the Bible are you reading?

 

[Quasar92]

This demonstrates the common, modern Protestant misunderstanding of the Reformation.

The chief doctrine of the Reformation is justification by grace alone through faith. The Reformers did not teach "salvation just by believing in Jesus", they taught that salvation is the work of God, by His grace alone, through Christ's all-sufficient work alone, which is appropriated to us by God alone, through the Means of His grace, by which He creates and gives us faith--trust--and by which we are reckoned justified because of Christ.

To teach that we are saved by believing certain things is to teach salvation by works. To place the onus on ourselves, rather than the work of Christ and God's gracious activity alone, is to teach that human effort contributes or is the cause of our salvation, and that is the precise antithesis of the chief doctrine of the Reformation.

So, are we saved by believing the right things or by doing the right things? Neither. We are saved by Jesus Christ, crucified and risen from the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

Eph.2:1 "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha]">[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."


Quasar92

 

[Adstar]

This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about.

James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation.

They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.From: www.gotquestions.org


Quasar92

Salvation is by Faith alone in Jesus alone... Good works are a fruit of salvation, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit..

 

[Acts2:38]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.

Hello and greetings as well.

Yes, I am a thorough student of the gospel. If I read this correctly, then for the most part I agree with what is said.

#1 = "The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ..."

Yes, that is what I read in scripture. Once you become baptized, you are following what the gospel commands and enter into Christ's church, thereby being in a saved state. So long as you remain faithful that is and continue in what the gospel states.

#2 = "The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun."

Now, I see this in scripture and I agree with the verses and what is said in scripture in context, but this is where I think you are starting to sway from what that context is actually saying.

The Holy Spirit acted a DIFFERENT way from "water" baptism only 2 times in the NT. The account happening in Acts 2:1-13 and Acts 10:44-46. It is the ONLY 2 times the Holy Spirit acted this way. It by no means shown salvation and in a saved state. All it shows is that they received miraculous gifts. Not salvation and entering a saved state with Christ.

First Corinthians 12:12–13 is the central passage in the Bible regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13). Notice that we “all” have been baptized by the Spirit—all believers have received the baptism, synonymous with salvation, and it is not a special experience for only a few. While Romans 6:1–4 does not mention specifically the Spirit of God, it does describe the believer’s position before God in language similar to the 1 Corinthians passage: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”

#1 = "First Corinthians 12:12–13 is the central passage in the Bible regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13)."

I think you are not seeing what the word baptism means maybe?

Strongs G907 = baptizō = to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk);to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet).

"13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,..."

This chapter and verses are what I use to prove just one church, the church of Christ. That there be "no divisions", that it is not many body's but only one body, and if someone is in another body they are not in Christ's' body.

So, you are baptized "into"(eis Greek word) the ONE body of Christ.

#2 = "Notice that we “all” have been baptized by the Spirit—all believers have received the baptism, synonymous with salvation, and it is not a special experience for only a few."

Unless you tell me otherwise in your next reply, this sounds like when you say "all", you entail even those who are not baptized, as the Greek word defines, and those who do not repent even. That's what it sounds like to me.

Like I stated before, you are not in the body of Christ until you are baptized, therefore you are not saved until you are baptized.

#3 = "While Romans 6:1–4 does not mention specifically the Spirit of God,"

I would suggest to you Acts 2:38. What happens when you are baptized FOR the remission of sins? This is what Romans 6:1-4 is talking about. This is how one is saved.

The following facts are necessary to help solidify our understanding of Spirit baptism: First, 1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states that all have been baptized, just as all been given the Spirit to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit). Second, nowhere in Scripture are believers told to be baptized with, in or by the Spirit, or in any sense to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This indicates that all believers have had this experience. Third, Ephesians 4:5 seems to refer to Spirit baptism. If this is the case, Spirit baptism is the reality for every believer, just as “one faith” and “one Father” are.

Strongs G907 = baptizō = to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk);to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet).

#1 =" The following facts are necessary to help solidify our understanding of Spirit baptism: First, 1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states that all have been baptized, just as all been given the Spirit to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit)."

This does not speak of such. Like I said before in this post, Acts 2:1-13 and Acts 10:44-46 are the only 2 times the Holy Spirit acted this way and both times it was talking about miraculous gifts, not salvation.

Further evidence here in Matthew 16:18-19 states that Jesus assured that Peter would open with the "keys" His church/kingdom (they were used interchangeably). Then in Acts 2 and Acts 10, you see both times Peter using those "keys" to open the kingdom to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles.

In Acts 10, the Holy Spirit was showing the Jews with Peter, that Christs kingdom was for ALL people, not just for the Jews (see Acts 11 Jews were mad at Peter). Cornelius, and his friends and household, was only saved when they were baptized Acts 10:47-48 and then they too were added to the Lords church (Acts 2:47).

#2 = "Second, nowhere in Scripture are believers told to be baptized with, in or by the Spirit, or in any sense to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This indicates that all believers have had this experience. "

Yes, they are told to. See Acts 2:38 for one. Many others if you wish for more proof but this should suffice.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Only WHEN you are baptized, for your sins, do you receive the Holy Spirit. This verse just shown your statement false.

#3 = "Third, Ephesians 4:5 seems to refer to Spirit baptism. If this is the case, Spirit baptism is the reality for every believer, just as “one faith” and “one Father” are."

You are choosing verse I use on people to show unity in one church. This does not imply in the least what happened in Acts 2 and 10.

The "one baptism" in Ephesians 4 refers to this:

church of Christ baptism or Methodist baptism, which will save you?

"one faith" = having faith in Allah or having faith in Christ, which will saved you?

"one body" = Being in Christs church or being in the baptist church, which will save you?

See, one baptism is referring to the fact that if you are baptized by Presbyterian doctrine you are baptized into that faith. It is NOT of Christ. It is NOT Christs body and therefore not the "one baptism" that can save you.

This is a verse I use to show there is only one church and one way of doing things, Christs way or the highway.

In conclusion, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does two things, 1) it joins us to the body of Christ, and 2) it actualizes our co-crucifixion with Christ. Being in His body means we are risen with Him to newness of life (Romans 6:4). We should then exercise our spiritual gifts to keep that body functioning properly as stated in the context of 1 Corinthians 12:13. Experiencing the one Spirit baptism serves as the basis for keeping the unity of the church, as in the context of Ephesians 4:5. Being associated with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection through Spirit baptism establishes the basis for our separation from the power of indwelling sin and our walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1-10; Colossians 2:12).

#1 = "In conclusion, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does two things, 1) it joins us to the body of Christ, and "

In conclusion from what I posted thus far, this statement is false. One joins the body of Christ when one IS BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38, 41, 47 then compare Romans 6:1-4)

#2 = "2) it actualizes our co-crucifixion with Christ. Being in His body means we are risen with Him to newness of life (Romans 6:4). "

This is redundant at this point, but you are not in His body until you are baptized (Acts 2:38, 41, 47 compare Romans 6:1-4). Your statement is found false.

 

[Acts2:38]

Besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it's usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become Christians. That's why the apostle Paul asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Your referring to miraculous gifts right?

 

[Albion]

Whatever happened to the subject of this thread--

"Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

 

[TheSeabass]

Romans 5:1-------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

Since there is just way to be justified/saved, then faith must be a work for a faith void of works is dead and a dead faith cannot save.

How can a person that does not obey what God has commanded ever be justified?

 

[Acts2:38]

Romans 5:1-------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

Since there is just way to be justified/saved, then faith must be a work for a faith void of works is dead and a dead faith cannot save.

How can a person that does not obey what God has commanded ever be justified?

After a reply like this I picture a scene were the room is silent as everyone just sits there and looks at each other.

Very nice response. Might I add these two verses, John 14:15 and John 15:14, for that last question you posed. Again, well done.

 

[Albion]

After a reply like this I picture a scene were the room is silent as everyone just sits there and looks at each other. .

I tend to agree.

We have the meaning of "works" explained umpteen times, and then you read a post like that one which seems, for all the world, to have been written by someone who likes to post but never reads any replies.

 

[TheSeabass]

After a reply like this I picture a scene were the room is silent as everyone just sits there and looks at each other.

Very nice response. Might I add these two verses, John 14:15 and John 15:14, for that last question you posed. Again, well done.

HI,

There will be those that will claim works are not really works to avoid the necessity of obedient works in being saved.

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works," Now James tells us what TYPE of works justifies.... "when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" There are many different types of works that can be found in the bible, yet the specific TYPE of work that James is talking about that justifies is an obedient faith in doing what God has commanded. So the question remains, how could Abraham ever be justified if he did no works in either moving (Gen 12) or offering Isaac (Gen 22)....how does doing nothing in response to God's commands ever going to justify one?