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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    So Paul had the Apostles and the Council proof read his letters before sending them? I don't buy in that they read them at all. I doubt they ever knew Paul wrote to the Gentile churches he started. And it's clear that what was taught to the Jews from the instruction of Christ concerning this new Gospel, is not specifically what Paul taught the Gentiles.
     
  2. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    That seems like a big stretch tying James verses to Paul's by trying use faith. And the license to sin is subjected to your understanding of Paul's Grace message, and nowhere in the examples given by James is Grace even a factor in the message.
     
  3. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    That's not clear to me at all. Explain it, please.
     
  4. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    During the time of the writing of the Book of Hebrews, there were no Hebrews left, only the remnant of Jews. And most believe Hebrews was written by Paul, who specified, he dealt with the Gentiles while Peter dealt with the Jews. If this was written by Paul, it's a historic compilation of the Hebrew to Jewish history from what is found in the Torah connecting it to the New Gospel. And it goes into great detail how we can link Yeshua in both Testaments. It's a rather educational Book that seems more to help the new Gentile converts than a warning to the Jews.

    Your assessment seems sound, but Paul would only address Gentiles concerning the history. And if it was from Paul, then the falling away warning would be to the Gentile, not to the Jew.

    After all, we already have Peter warning the Jews who was assigned to the Jews, not Paul.

    Now, the meaning and intent of this letter changes if this was not Paul writing it. But then again, most scholars believe this was from Paul!!

    So, it can be debated either way...
     
  5. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    Jesus said, He came to have Mercy upon us, the Mercy of God.
    Paul said, Jesus had Grace upon us, the Grace of God.

    Mercy and Grace are 2 very almost opposite in meaning terms. I doubt the Holy Spirit would convey such a thing!!

    And the truth of the matter, was that Yeshua commanded His Disciples in Matthew 28:19 to go into all of the nations (Jew and Gentile) and to teach them...(the New Gospel - which the Disciples only knew what Yeshua taught them which would be the MERCY of God).
     
  6. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    The 2 posts before this answers it.
     
  7. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    If you assume it was written by Paul, then in the mid 1st century there were plenty of Jews--there was still a whole Jewish nation---and they popularly considered themselves Hebrews as Paul called himself a "Hebrew of Hebrews."

    But most scholars today do not think the letter to the Hebrews was written by Paul.

    Well, no, because Jewish history was not meaningful to the Gentiles. Paul more often used sports and military analogies with them, and even quoted their own philosophers. The fact that the letter contains none of that, but a great deal of Jewish historical detail is an indication that it's not written to Gentiles.

    Which only indicates it was not written by Paul.

    No, most scholars do not believe it was from Paul.
     
  8. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Well, no, you didn't and it doesn't appear that you can.
     
  9. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    That's why the Romans viewed Yeshua as king of the Hebrews...no, they called Him king of the Jews!! To which the Pharisees mocked claiming they had no king (which is admitting they were Jews). And the Jews definitely were a group until they were scattered after the 70 A.D. destruction from Rome.

    Supported by multiple sources
    Strictly speaking, the Israelites never became known as Jews. The kingdom of Israel was destroyed in 722 BCE and its people dispersed thoughout the Near East. The people of the small southern enclave of Judah, known today as Judahites, became known as Jews during the Babylonian Exile in the sixth century BCE.

    When did the Israelites become known as the Jews - Answers
    When did the Israelites become known as the Jews


    They had been known as Jews when Yeshua arrived for nearly 6 centuries.




    Question: "Who was the author of Hebrews?"

    Answer:
    Both the authorship and audience are in question.


    The letter closes with the words "Grace be with you all" (Hebrews 13:25), which is the same closing found in each of Paul's known letters (see Romans 16:20; 1 Corinthians 16:23; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Galatians 6:18; Ephesians 6:24; Philippians 4:23; Colossians 4:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:28; 2 Thessalonians 3:18; 1 Timothy 6:21; 2 Timothy 4:22; Titus 3:15; and Philemon 25).

    The book of Hebrews quotes extensively from the Old Testament. Paul, as a Pharisee, would have been familiar with the Scripture in its original Hebrew language.

    ""The most plausible suggestion, is that this was actually a sermon Paul gave to the Gentiles,"" and it was transcribed later by Luke, a person who would have had the command of the Greek language which the writer shows.

    The theology presented in Hebrews is consistent with Paul's. Paul was a proponent of salvation by faith alone
    (Ephesians 2:8, 9), and that message is strongly communicated in this epistle (Hebrews 4:2, 6:12, 10:19-22, 10:37-39, and 11:1-40). Either Paul wrote the epistle, or the writer was trained by Paul. Although it is a small detail, this epistle makes mention of Timothy (Hebrews 13:23), and Paul is the only apostle known to have ever done that in any letter.



    As I answered from your last quote, that author thought this was Paul preaching a message to the Gentiles (probably explaining what their new heritage in God is all about) and Luke actually wrote the Book of Hebrews.



    I am providing the same answer as I just gave:

    As I answered from your last quote, that author thought this was Paul preaching a message to the Gentiles (probably explaining what their new heritage in God is all about) and Luke actually wrote the Book of Hebrews.



    From everything I have been searching online, the majority do think it was written by Paul.

    But I do like the idea that this was a sermon of Paul's, and that Luke chose to write it down
     
  10. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That’s your opinion, but the Bible shows that all the apostles supported Paul and called him an apostle.

    I don’t put my own opinion over what the Bible clearly teaches.
     
  11. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Read a different book.
     
  12. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You might pray and ask God about that.
     
  13. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why are you looking for theological answers on Answers.com?
     
  14. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    I am not denying that the Apostles accepted Paul and thought/treated him as equal Apostles. I am just saying the chances they had access to Paul's personal letters written to his churches are highly doubtful. That world then, is for one, not highly sophisticated like it is today where we can intercept and read peoples personal mail. Secondly, for the better part, the original Disciples plus the Council led by James, were concentrating on the nearby Jewish communities. Their biggest connection to the Gentiles was their agreeing which Laws and rules they must abide by, not running to wherever Paul was planting churches. So, it is very unlikely they ever did read much of what Paul wrote in terms of personal letters to his founding churches.

    Outside of Paul's conversion and introduction to Christ by Christ, Paul enlightened us with deeper meanings to what he understood from the Torah. It was not like Paul had access to the Gospels or the disciples personal notes.

    So basically, I don't believe anyone was reading notes/letters from anyone during that time.

    We only have the notes from Matthew-Mark-Luke (Acts-possibly Hebrews)-John (1-2-3-Revelation's)-Peter (1-2)-James-Jude-Paul (13 personal letters to his churches) because after the destruction of 70 A.D. someone began collecting them. And eventually, the Council in the early 4th century made them into a 27 Book format titled the New Testament.

    This is not based upon my opinion, but by historian fact!!
     
  15. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    Maybe I should just copy paste all of the sites claiming Hebrews was written by Paul vs the ones claiming not.

    OOOPs, that won't work, because it's basically a 95 to 5 ratio of those believing Paul wrote it!!
     
  16. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    Really???

    We know Jesus taught He came to have Mercy upon us, the Mercy of God. This message would have been taught directly to His Disciples. And in Matthew 28:19, we have Jesus commanding His Disciples to go into ALL NATIONS (Jew/Gentile Nations) and teach them (teach them what?)(obviously what Jesus taught them first hand and what they saw during the ministry of Christ - which God had MERCY on them)(so even the Gentiles were to get the Mercy Message Jesus personally taught).

    Instead, we did not get the MERCY Message, we Got Paul's Grace Message. This is why I go back to Matthew 28:19 and obey that, because Jesus (WHO is GOD) instructed that ALL NATIONS be taught that. So that means, I am part of ALL NATIONS so I am to be taught that, just like you are to be taught that, and all Jewish/Gentile converts to Christ should be taught that...which is, we are saved by the MERCY of GOD taught by Jesus, not by the Grace Message Paul preached!!

    We can learn from Paul, but God WORDS/TEACHINGS always trumps the Apostle!! Especially, when God commanded ALL NATIONS be taught that like we read in Matthew 28:19!!
     
  17. servantofiam

    servantofiam Member

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    I like to see how people answer different questions per topic. I don't have to agree/disagree to enjoy reading how other people view things. I think if we took every answer that within them all is the absolute correct answer. Not a single one of us knows it all, even when a billion people could agree with us, there is still an answer better since God's ways are higher in intelligence than our ways.
     
  18. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please don’t put words in my mouth.

    Address my ‘actual’ words instead of misleading the conversation
     
  19. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your opinion and understanding of scripture is so solid you see no reason to pray about it?

    I would think a bit about that statement
     
  20. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don’t have a problem with what you choose to do, I think posting it as a resource in a theological post is odd.
     
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