Is Prayer Necessary For Salvation?

[ViaCrucis]

Even in the old testament it's been possible. The child of King David and Bathsheba that died.. David said that he would see the baby again (after death).
In order for that to happen, the baby would have to be in the same place that David would be..
Not hell.

In the Old Testament there is only mention of She'ol, the common place of the dead. David took comfort that he would see his child in death, because they would both be in She'ol.

The differentiation of She'ol into Gan-Eden (Paradise) and Ge-Hinnom (Gehenna) was something that we only start to see in Judaism during the 2nd Temple Period, centuries after David was alive.

In the Old Testament the idea of "going to heaven" or "going to hell" didn't exist. It's a way of thinking about things that doesn't even really exist in the New Testament either, but which developed later as a massively oversimplified shorthand for the sorts of language the New Testament and the early Church used.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

For salvation...one has to talk to GOD...say our sorry.. repent. With out it.. then its based on something else as in "if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sins remain". Millions have never heard.. so they will be looked at in a different way.

Cant get it with out asking

That sounds like truly terrible news for the mute.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I base it on the scripture that says "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household shall be saved."

"And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his household." - Acts of the Apostles 16:32-33

-CryptoLutheran

 

[packermann]

Is prayer necessary for salvation in that prayer is something we do which is earning us points and if we don't accrue the necessary points, or get our t's crossed and i's dotted then no salvation for us? No.

We Catholics do not pray to earn points. That is a caricature of our beliefs. We believe that we are saved soley by the grace of God. In fact, most Catholics (and most Protestants as well) take grace to the extreme that they think that they can do whatever they want to and they still are saved by the grace of God. There is no need to deny ourselves, pick up the cross and to follow Christ. I wish that all Catholics and Protestants that grace is not a cheap grace but a costly grace (Bonhoffer). It costed the life of the God's only begotten Son and it must cost our lives as well. But we cannot on our own part give our lives to Gods on a day to day basis. We need to pray.

Prayer doesn't merit anything from God. I don't pray because if I don't then God is going to shoo me away, or that if I do then God accepts me because I've attained some sort of pious standing.

Of course not! But we have not because we have not. If we lack the ability to resist sin it is because we do not pray for it. If we are unable to forgive it is because we not pray for it.

Prayer is not "salvific"; but prayer is intrinsic to the life of salvation which we have in Christ. It has nothing to do with either quality or quantity; it's not about how frequently we pray or infrequently we pray, or how well we pray.

Indirectly our prayers are salvific. He who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. For instance, in the Lord's prayer, we pray "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive our trespassers". In other words, we are asking God to forgive us just as we are forgiving to others. But what if you just can't forgive someone? Does that mean you are one of the reprobate. No! Anyone can forgive anyone - if he only prays.

But prayer is something that comes, flows out from, a life being worked upon by God's grace.

That is a a nice flowery way of saying that you are living on your feelings. Prayer is then not something you work on. It just flows! If you don't feel like praying today, don't sweat it, dude! Just go with the flow! May you have not prayed all week? No problem!

It is amazing that we are disciplined about everything but our own souls. Would we just go with the flow about our bodies. We get up in the morning and jog. Jogging does not flow from our feelings! People are disciplined to exercise every day. And we discipline to eat healthy food and not junk food just because we are going with the flow! Why should we treat our souls with any less discipline? We are called to exercise ourselves us to godliness.
In the same way that breathing are intrinsic to our biological existence. We don't earn our life by breathing; but part of being alive is breathing. It is a sustenance, and without it we suffocate ourselves.

A life without prayer is like a man suffocating, strangling his spiritual life. But, additionally, prayer is also something that is cultivated. It's why Jesus taught us how to pray.

If a sister or brother say that they do not pray, rather than judge them, I would want to understand the underlying reason. Do they not know how to pray? Then as Christ's people, let's feed them, invite them deeper into God's word, and teach about God's grace, and His gifts. Let's speak Gospel to them. Is their faith shaky? Have they experienced trauma that has shaken them? Then let's be God's people to them, loving them, sharing ourselves with them, not chastising but comforting and--again--speaking Gospel to them. Let's teach, let's reason together, let's preach the good news, let us love one another with godly and brotherly affection. And by the grace of God, through God's gracious working in His Body through Word and Sacrament, let us encourage one another. That we might, together, as Christ's own people, share together in a loving and prayerful life.

Judging is a tricky thing. Is not saying or thinking that a man is suffocating is also a judgment call? You may ask someone for the underlying reason he does not pray. And he may say to mind your own business. He may feel you are judging him. The best way to to share in a loving and prayerful life is by praying that God give you the right words and attitude when you seek to correct someone. Again, prayer is needed.

 

[packermann]

It has nothing to do with either quality or quantity; it's not about how frequently we pray or infrequently we pray or how well we pray. But prayer is something that comes, flows out from, a life being worked upon by God's grace.

Jesus commanded us to pray at all times. Paul commanded us to pray without ceasing. There is no commandment, "Thou shalt go with the flow!".

The Protestant preacher John Wesley saw the need for Christians to be self-disciplined. He developed self-disciplines, called Methods, which is why his followers were called Methodists. This caused a country-wide revival in the U.S, just before the American Revolution, the Great Awakening. Instead of calling them methods, we Catholics call them spiritual exercises - based on the Bible saying "exercise thyself unto godliness" (1 Timothy 4:7).

When I was a Protestant in college, I was involved in Campus Crusade for Christ. They stressed the importance of spending a least 15 minutes a day with the Lord, preferably every morning. They called this a Quiet Time. I was went to a Bill Gothard seminar, where they recommended the reading 5 chapters of Bible straight through each day - in one year you would have read the whole Bible. I made the commitment, and I look back at this being one of the positive things that Protestantism has influenced me.

In the same way that breathing are intrinsic to our biological existence. We don't earn our life by breathing; but part of being alive is breathing. It is a sustenance, and without it we suffocate ourselves.

Breathing comes naturally. Prayer does not. What comes naturally for us is sin. Watching TV takes no effort. Going on this forum takes no effort. But turning off the TV or getting off this forum in order to pray does take effort. A dead fish goes with the current. A live fish goes against the current. The flow is from the world, the flesh, and the devil. This "Go With the Flow" idea is not taking into account that we are in a spiritual warfare. True, we need to depend on the Holy Spirit. But one of the fruit of the Spirit is self-discipline (Galatians 5:22-23). We must learn to say "no" to ourselves and "yes" to God. It will feel difficult at first, but eventually prayer will be second nature to us. Only then the Divine flow may begin. God wants us to serve Him even when we do not feel like it. Only then do we understand what it means to love God with our whole hearts and minds. If we only pray when we feel like it then we still do not love God. We only seek Him when it is convenient for us. We are still on the throne of our lives, not God.

 

[fwGod]

In the Old Testament there is only mention of She'ol, the common place of the dead. David took comfort that he would see his child in death, because they would both be in She'ol.

The differentiation of She'ol into Gan-Eden (Paradise) and Ge-Hinnom (Gehenna) was something that we only start to see in Judaism during the 2nd Temple Period, centuries after David was alive.

In the Old Testament the idea of "going to heaven" or "going to hell" didn't exist. It's a way of thinking about things that doesn't even really exist in the New Testament either, but which developed later as a massively oversimplified shorthand for the sorts of language the New Testament and the early Church used.

-CryptoLutheran

I replied using the word "hell" as a common reference. Not for the purpose of derailing the thread with the Biblical theology of hell versus sheol.

 

[fwGod]

"And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his household." - Acts of the Apostles 16:32-33

-CryptoLutheran

That is additional to the topic of the promise of family salvation.. the question I first responded to didn't ask concerning the follow up so that is why I didn't give it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That is additional to the topic of the promise of family salvation.. the question I first responded to didn't ask concerning the follow up so that is why I didn't give it.

Your use of the passage as a proof that children are saved through the faith of their parents is untenable, because the context is that the entire household heard the Gospel and received Baptism. It wasn't the jailer's faith that saved everyone in his household, it was God working through His Means of Word and Sacrament, giving faith to those in his household. Because the Scriptures are very clear, that salvation is by God's grace alone, through faith.

The text does not teach that children are saved by what their parents believe; the text does teach that the entire household received God's word and were baptized.

Your position is unbiblical.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I replied using the word "hell" as a common reference. Not for the purpose of derailing the thread with the Biblical theology of hell versus sheol.

The point still remains: David wouldn't have conceived of the afterlife as there being "heaven" and "hell", but only that there was She'ol, the place of the dead. The evolution of the Jewish ideas about the afterlife which we see by the time we get to the first century occurred centuries after David. As such talking about "going to hell" is an anachronistic reading of what David's talking about. All that can be surmised from David's words is that he believed he would be reunited with his child after death.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[fwGod]

Your use of the passage as a proof that children are saved through the faith of their parents is untenable, because the context is that the entire household heard the Gospel and received Baptism.

In all of the epistles of the apostles they don't mention babies or children. Either for salvation or for going to hell because they are too young to believe.

Jesus however said, "Allow the little children to come to me for such is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus said that the kingdom is for them. He didn't say anything about "Only if they believe." or "As long as they believe."

It wasn't the jailer's faith that saved everyone in his household, it was God working through His Means of Word and Sacrament, giving faith to those in his household. Because the Scriptures are very clear, that salvation is by God's grace alone, through faith.

I already replied to this in a previous post.

The text does not teach that children are saved by what their parents believe

I quoted Acts 16:31 as a promise for parents to believe in prayer concerning their children, and all family members. That has a measure of difference regarding what you think that I said.

What you said makes me think that you never pray for your children or your grandchildren. And I suppose that you'd likely think that a baby or child that dies early goes to hell.

That presents an unloving heavenly Father to any parent or grandparent.

the text does teach that the entire household received God's word and were baptized.

Assuming that there were no babies or children in that family. But, according to you, too bad for them if there was. God doesn't care.

Your position is unbiblical.

You are omitting the very real promise in the words of Acts 16:31 that a parent can use as a prayer that the children are raised according to the grace covering.. that if they do die before they reach an age to believe.. that because of God's love and grace they will go to heaven.

And, when they reach and age to understand they can get saved because they believe.

We are all under grace and not leaving our children out of salvation because of the strict letter of the word of God as you present it.
But by your reckoning only the adults have a hope of salvation and heaven if they die. While leaving out the children for any hope and therefore going to hell if they die before they are of an age to understand and believe.

That is discounting the power of prayer, it is saying that God made no promise to babies and small children. And in that case, why would parents want such a God or worship Him if He apparently doesn't care about the little ones?

I say your presentation is unbiblical.

 

[Waitingforgood]

Cornelius was saved without praying a prayer for it in Acts 10-it was at faith, not at any action of his.

Faith is looking to Jesus and trusting in Him alone, not performing an action and declaring that because we did that, God saved us. The only requirement for salvation is Jesus, and when we’re saved, we look to Him and see that it’s all His doing, even if it’s blurry.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Cornelius was saved without praying a prayer for it in Acts 10-it was at faith, not at any action of his.

Faith is looking to Jesus and trusting in Him alone, not performing an action and declaring that because we did that, God saved us. The only requirement for salvation is Jesus, and when we’re saved, we look to Him and see that it’s all His doing, even if it’s blurry.

A body without breath is dead. So also faith without works is dead.

Cornelius? He was a righteous man, and known by Jews and gentiles to be a righteous man, and he did much good known by Jesus, by Jews, and by gentiles.
He prayed several times a day.

2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”

4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.

The angel answered, “Your prayers and
................................................. gifts to the poor

have come up as a memorial offering before God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We cannot honor God with our lips but our hearts be far from Him. But the one who prays a lot depends on Him a lot.

They are noted in Scripture (those who prayed A LOT, whose lips praised God, BUT THEIR HEARTS were FAR FROM HIM), as HE Says.
Multitudes who "pray a lot", on Judgment Day, are told "be gone from ME, I never knew you" (all you did, you did for show, Jesus Says to them)

 

[ViaCrucis]

In all of the epistles of the apostles they don't mention babies or children. Either for salvation or for going to hell because they are too young to believe.

Jesus however said, "Allow the little children to come to me for such is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus said that the kingdom is for them. He didn't say anything about "Only if they believe." or "As long as they believe."

I already replied to this in a previous post.

I quoted Acts 16:31 as a promise for parents to believe in prayer concerning their children, and all family members. That has a measure of difference regarding what you think that I said.

What you said makes me think that you never pray for your children or your grandchildren. And I suppose that you'd likely think that a baby or child that dies early goes to hell.

That presents an unloving heavenly Father to any parent or grandparent.
Assuming that there were no babies or children in that family. But, according to you, too bad for them if there was. God doesn't care.
You are omitting the very real promise in the words of Acts 16:31 that a parent can use as a prayer that the children are raised according to the grace covering.. that if they do die before they reach an age to believe.. that because of God's love and grace they will go to heaven.

And, when they reach and age to understand they can get saved because they believe.

We are all under grace and not leaving our children out of salvation because of the strict letter of the word of God as you present it.
But by your reckoning only the adults have a hope of salvation and heaven if they die. While leaving out the children for any hope and therefore going to hell if they die before they are of an age to understand and believe.

That is discounting the power of prayer, it is saying that God made no promise to babies and small children. And in that case, why would parents want such a God or worship Him if He apparently doesn't care about the little ones?

I say your presentation is unbiblical.

You have deeply misunderstood my position. I haven't suggested that children can't be saved, nor have I said that children go to hell.

What I've said is that your position is unbiblical, because it is. What you have neglected to even consider is God's grace.

That God works through His Means, through Word and Sacrament. The jailer's household was saved, but not because of something the jailer did or didn't do; but because through Word and Sacrament they received faith. Yes, even the children and infants.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[charsan]

Is Prayer Necessary For Salvation?

Upon which do you speak? Do you speak as the evangelicals on initial Salvation? If you are than I say no. There are many like CS Lewis who did not pray for initial Salvation.

CS Lewis has a good quote on prayer:

“I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God. It changes me.”

 

[packermann]

Upon which do you speak? Do you speak as the evangelicals on initial Salvation?

No, I believe salvation is a past, present, and future event. He who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is not a one-time act, I believe. We must always depend on the Lord. And I cannot think of a better thing that we can do but pray.

“I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God. It changes me.”

Yes, that is a great quote by Lewis. But I want to caution on the idea that prayer just flows out of us. Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not. It is when it does not that we need prayer the most. We do not always want to pray. Some tragedy hits us and God seems far off. I know that Lewis has had that happened to him. He watch the woman he loved slowly die. He wrote this in his book "A Grief Observed". I have never forgotten his description of pain - "Pain is ... PAIN!". I could feel what he went through. Spiritual masters of Catholic spirituality called this the Dark Night of the Soul. Christ experienced this on the cross, when He cried out "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?". I felt that God abandoned me when I lost my fiancee and my pastorate within two weeks. It took me years to start praying to God again. And this was because I thought that prayer would easily flow from me. But it did not. Sometimes we feel that our prayers are dry as dust. But we must still persist. We must persist not because we are earning brownie points with God. We must persist because that is how His God's perfect will is done in our lives. And prayers when it is the most difficult to pray are the most powerful prayers to God.

Most Christians throughout the world are going through very hard times. They are experiencing persecutions that I cannot imagine. Or they are not sure when their family will get their next meal. Life can be hard. We are in a valley of tears. I think Lewis would rethink some of his ideas about prayer. It sometimes flow but it sometimes does not. Prayer is not always easy. Sometimes we can barely say "My God, help me!" But prayer is always what we need, because prayer touches God, and God is what we need. I think Lewis understood that when he lost the woman he loved.

 

[charsan]

No, I believe salvation is a past, present, and future event. He who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is not a one-time act, I believe. We must always depend on the Lord. And I cannot think of a better thing that we can do but pray.

I also believe that 100 percent

Yes, that is a great quote by Lewis. But I want to caution on the idea that prayer just flows out of us. Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not. It is when it does not that we need prayer the most. We do not always want to pray. Some tragedy hits us and God seems far off. I know that Lewis has had that happened to him. He watch the woman he loved slowly die. He wrote this in his book "A Grief Observed". I have never forgotten his description of pain - "Pain is ... PAIN!". I could feel what he went through. Spiritual masters of Catholic spirituality called this the Dark Night of the Soul. Christ experienced this on the cross, when He cried out "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?". I felt that God abandoned me when I lost my fiancee and my pastorate within two weeks. It took me years to start praying to God again. And this was because I thought that prayer would easily flow from me. But it did not. Sometimes we feel that our prayers are dry as dust. But we must still persist. We must persist not because we are earning brownie points with God. We must persist because that is how His God's perfect will is done in our lives. And prayers when it is the most difficult to pray are the most powerful prayers to God.

I am the outlier here, I have never found it hard to pray as CS Lewis said pray does flow out of me. It maybe because of all my problems physically being disabled, having tons of surgeries, and losing my parents six hours apart. I always pray and the best time for me is when I am zooming along in my wheelchair. Prayer may not flow out of everyone but for me and Jack it does, or at least it did for him

 

[fwGod]

You have deeply misunderstood my position. I haven't suggested that children can't be saved, nor have I said that children go to hell.

What I've said is that your position is unbiblical, because it is. What you have neglected to even consider is God's grace.

From my previous postings here are two which show that I haven't neglected to consider God's grace.

post #15 -

until children do understand, they are under a grace covering. Then when grown they are still under a grace covering at the moment of salvation Eph.2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast."

post #30 -

You are omitting the very real promise in the words of Acts 16:31 that a parent can use as a prayer that the children are raised according to the grace covering.. that if they do die before they reach an age to believe.. that because of God's love and grace they will go to heaven.

That God works through His Means, through Word and Sacrament. The jailer's household was saved, but not because of something the jailer did or didn't do; but because through Word and Sacrament they received faith. Yes, even the children and infants.

-CryptoLutheran

The babies and children are too young to understand in order to believe.

That's why I said..

post #5 -

The children of the saved parents are covered by the faith of the parents until such time as the child reaches the age to believe for themselves.

post #18 -

The babies and children are under the grace covering of the parents until such time as they can understand the gospel.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The babies and children are too young to understand in order to believe.

This does demonstrate fundamental differences on what is meant by the word "faith".

Let's begin small here, with a question:

Can an infant trust his or her mother?

For full disclosure, my goal here is to demonstrate that since an infant is capable of having trust in its mother, that is, to develop a natural faith; then to deny to infants that they can be given supernatural faith, which is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) which comes through God's Means (Romans 10:17) is absurd.

Seeing as faith in Christ does not arise through the intellect or by reason, but rather is God's gift entirely apart from ourselves; then to limit faith only to those capable of answering a theology exam is a denial of grace.

Saving faith, i.e. faith in Jesus Christ, is not an intellectual property or an answer to a theological examination--it is a bold trust in Jesus, the Person Himself, and what He did. And this is not a product of human will and activity, but of divine grace. It is God's work.

Thus when the infant receives God's gifts, that is the Means of Grace, through which God has promised to work to create faith; they receive the same thing you and I have received. For the gift of God is impartial.

Indeed, Christ our God having said, "Do not prohibit the little ones from coming unto Me, for to such as these belongs the kingdom." We do not deny to our children the gifts and grace of God, but welcome our children into our midst as God's People, as the people who hear and receive God's Word, as the baptized disciples of Jesus Christ.

Understanding, growth, maturity--these things come with time. We are all works in progress; we are all being worked upon by God. So, with time, as we rear our children in the faith, they will grow in their knowledge of Christ. Just even as happens with adult converts.

Christ does not discriminate, and God is no respecter of persons. We are all sinners, and as sinners God's love, the love with which He has for the whole world, is for each and every one of us. From the smallest and the weakest, to the greatest. Young and old, male and female, Jew and Greek, rich and poor, slave and free. Tall, short, fat, skinny, black, white, it doesn't matter.

The Gospel is for all.
Christ died for all.
The grace of God is for everyone.
God loves everyone, and desires that all be saved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[packermann]

I am the outlier here, I have never found it hard to pray as CS Lewis said pray does flow out of me. It maybe because of all my problems physically being disabled, having tons of surgeries, and losing my parents six hours apart. I always pray and the best time for me is when I am zooming along in my wheelchair. Prayer may not flow out of everyone but for me and Jack it does, or at least it did for him

I am an outlier, too. I have cerebral palsy which gave me a hard childhood. Kids can be cruel. I grew up being very unsure about myself. But I am not trying to top you in hardships. I am impressed how the Lord has delivered you from the despondency you could have been now. I can sense God's grace being upon you.