Is Pelagius doctrine heretical? Looking for opinions.

bmjackson

Newbie
Site Supporter
Aug 10, 2007
979
325
UK
✟293,276.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Augustine did such a good job of destroying Pelagius' works (most) and reputation (he also disappeared from the face of the earth) that people today repeat the same lie without looking it up for themselves.

For certainly it is of God alone that man is able to do and carry though a good action, and this capacity alone can exist without the other two but cannot exist without it
(iv. 5 Patrologiae curseus completus, series Latina, supplementum 44 ,362)

Even Augustine had to agree with the reputation of Pelagius that he was a holy man, until that is, that he disagreed with Augustine, and nobody was going to get away with that!

The dispute he had over Romans showed exactly what Pelagius believed over chapter 7 and it was that a man cannot obey without the holy spirit.
 
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,392
823
Califormia
✟134,104.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,458
26,889
Pacific Northwest
✟732,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Augustine did such a good job of destroying Pelagius' works (most) and reputation (he also disappeared from the face of the earth) that people today repeat the same lie without looking it up for themselves.

For certainly it is of God alone that man is able to do and carry though a good action, and this capacity alone can exist without the other two but cannot exist without it
(iv. 5 Patrologiae curseus completus, series Latina, supplementum 44 ,362)

Even Augustine had to agree with the reputation of Pelagius that he was a holy man, until that is, that he disagreed with Augustine, and nobody was going to get away with that!

The dispute he had over Romans showed exactly what Pelagius believed over chapter 7 and it was that a man cannot obey without the holy spirit.

What does Pelagius mean here? Does Pelagius mean a common grace of human free will to obey God's Law, or does he mean the divine assistance and transformative power of special grace?

That's the crux of the matter. The former is heretical, the latter is orthodox.

-CryptoLuthearn
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

JohnT

Regular Member
Oct 27, 2007
823
117
Finger Lakes, NY
✟19,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What does Pelagius mean here?

That is a proper noun. It is the name of the man who denied original sin.

Augustine describes Pelagius' position by writing, "For that grace and help of God, by which we are assisted in avoiding sin, he [Pelagius] places either in nature and free will." For him, humans did not have the capacity to do any good whatsoever, apart from God's grace. God draws humans towards God with grace, and not by the good working of a person. Once a person accepts this grace, they then have the capacity to do good, which Augustine defines as loving God as God loves God and loving others as God loves others. Augustine claims that due to the fall, the Bible and human nature, there is no way that a human could follow God of his or her own volition.​
from Augustine v. Pelagius — Sam Davidson

Original Sin is a convenient term and experiential true for all but Jesus - but not found in scripture.

Wanna revise that statement?

1 Corinthians 15:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
ESV
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,392
823
Califormia
✟134,104.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Wanna revise that statement?

1 Corinthians 15:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
ESV
Don't want to put words in your mouth (because you are quite curt here - in contrast to your moniker), but are you saying that Original Sin is proved because as expressed in 1 Cor 15:45 only the second Adam (Jesus - not Adam) was able to quicken (make alive) the spirit?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,458
26,889
Pacific Northwest
✟732,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
That is a proper noun. It is the name of the man who denied original sin.

I can't tell if you are just trying to be funny, or if you honestly thought I didn't know who Pelagius was.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tigger45
Upvote 0

bmjackson

Newbie
Site Supporter
Aug 10, 2007
979
325
UK
✟293,276.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What does Pelagius mean here? Does Pelagius mean a common grace of human free will to obey God's Law, or does he mean the divine assistance and transformative power of special grace?

That's the crux of the matter. The former is heretical, the latter is orthodox.

-CryptoLuthearn

If there is any doubt about his meaning, one only has to study his interpretation of Romans 7 during the debate with Augustine to know.

The view and the one which is widely held today by many Arminians, is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said: "It is understood that man here described who was never under grace" (Homilies). This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.

"In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man? Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so palable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church" (J Schmidz Romans 7)

Pelagius taught what is sometimes known as the Apostolic view, which is that Paul is speaking about the Christian in Romans 7 but not in what should be his normal condition. Those who do not accept the view that it is a Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. However, the person describing it is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God has convicted the man of his sinfulness. Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought acceptance through the works of the law. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustine's position and excuse their sin. and until they come to the point whereby they admit their powerlessness.

The misunderstanding of the early writers teachings in saying that Romans 7 is the unregenerate person could be that some meant an unregenerate person as a believer who has not arrived at the full sanctification experience, which was what Wesley meant by the 'Almost Christian' Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also its power.

We must conclude that the man depicted in Romans 7 is a) a man who has only just come to Christ for forgiveness and has attempted previously to be righteous through obeying the law, (or as commonly known as an unbeliever) and the Primitive view, b) the normal state of a Christian which is held by Calvinists in the main and brought in by Augustine and c) the believer who has come to the crisis in his faith and inability to keep God's law in the manner that he knows he must,whereby he will be delivered from the body of sin to the state where there is no more condemnation, the view which was understood by the ECF's as Theosis and became widespread during the 'Celtic period', and Holiness Movement of the 19th C. There is no other viable interpretation of these texts that I can see.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟176,953.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
If there is any doubt about his meaning, one only has to study his interpretation of Romans 7 during the debate with Augustine to know.

The view and the one which is widely held today by many Arminians, is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said: "It is understood that man here described who was never under grace" (Homilies). This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.

"In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man? Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so palable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church" (J Schmidz Romans 7)

Pelagius taught what is sometimes known as the Apostolic view, which is that Paul is speaking about the Christian in Romans 7 but not in what should be his normal condition. Those who do not accept the view that it is a Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. However, the person describing it is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God has convicted the man of his sinfulness. Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought acceptance through the works of the law. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustine's position and excuse their sin. and until they come to the point whereby they admit their powerlessness.

The misunderstanding of the early writers teachings in saying that Romans 7 is the unregenerate person could be that some meant an unregenerate person as a believer who has not arrived at the full sanctification experience, which was what Wesley meant by the 'Almost Christian' Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also its power.

We must conclude that the man depicted in Romans 7 is a) a man who has only just come to Christ for forgiveness and has attempted previously to be righteous through obeying the law, (or as commonly known as an unbeliever) and the Primitive view, b) the normal state of a Christian which is held by Calvinists in the main and brought in by Augustine and c) the believer who has come to the crisis in his faith and inability to keep God's law in the manner that he knows he must,whereby he will be delivered from the body of sin to the state where there is no more condemnation, the view which was understood by the ECF's as Theosis and became widespread during the 'Celtic period', and Holiness Movement of the 19th C. There is no other viable interpretation of these texts that I can see.

I think Paul is talking about himself in the present time. I think our entire lives are to be lived with repentance rather than just a "one off" and we are good.

An article I found interesting: Augustine and the Pelagian Controversy | Tabletalk
 
Upvote 0

JohnT

Regular Member
Oct 27, 2007
823
117
Finger Lakes, NY
✟19,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Don't want to put words in your mouth (because you are quite curt here - in contrast to your moniker), but are you saying that Original Sin is proved because as expressed in 1 Cor 15:45 only the second Adam (Jesus - not Adam) was able to quicken (make alive) the spirit?

No, I am not trying to be snarky. However, the words of Paul comprise an almost word-for-word refutation pf your thesis.

I wrote the invitation as a question so you could make your own clarification. Seems to me that since you do not like what I posted because I hold to an inerrant original writings, How do you reconcile what Paul clearly teaches, and what you seem to dismiss?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnT

Regular Member
Oct 27, 2007
823
117
Finger Lakes, NY
✟19,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This is what you posted.
John Mullally said:
Original Sin is a convenient term and experiential true for all but Jesus - but not found in scripture.
I can't tell if you are just trying to be funny, or if you honestly thought I didn't know who Pelagius was.

what I did in the one reply was to demonstrate that while the words "original sin" are not in Scripture, Scripture does indeed teach that.

-CryptoLutheran

So when the poster viaCrucis posted this:

ViaCrucis said:
What does Pelagius mean here?
I took it as if he was asking the meaning of the word "Pelagius" and was trying to be light hearted about it because I focused on the proper noun name. No harm, no foul.
 
Upvote 0

bmjackson

Newbie
Site Supporter
Aug 10, 2007
979
325
UK
✟293,276.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think Paul is talking about himself in the present time. I think our entire lives are to be lived with repentance rather than just a "one off" and we are good.

An article I found interesting: Augustine and the Pelagian Controversy | Tabletalk

One thing that is true in the article, is that Pelagianism was rife before Augustine. In fact all of the Fathers believed it.

Yes your understanding is a common one. It is not a matter of saying okay we are good. The Fathers taught extensively how important it is to remain in Union by watchfulness. The power to resist sin is from God and not man so therefore we have to be careful to keep the blessing.
 
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,392
823
Califormia
✟134,104.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I took it as if he was asking the meaning of the word "Pelagius" and was trying to be light hearted about it because I focused on the proper noun name. No harm, no foul.
Your post triggered me to look again and was reminded of Romans 3:23 which provides evidence for Original Sin from inductive reasoning and probably there are better reasonings that others can provide.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,417
5,524
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟611,327.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Your post triggered me to look again and was reminded of Romans 3:23 which provides evidence for Original Sin from inductive reasoning and probably there are better reasonings that others can provide.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Or is this suggesting that each of us has enough of our own not to have need to rely on the sin of our biological progenitors?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,458
26,889
Pacific Northwest
✟732,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
This is what you posted.


So when the poster viaCrucis posted this:


I took it as if he was asking the meaning of the word "Pelagius" and was trying to be light hearted about it because I focused on the proper noun name. No harm, no foul.

I was asking what he, Pelagius, meant by what he said. It was also somewhat rhetorical--Pelagius' understanding of "grace" was fundamentally different than the orthodox understanding of grace. The orthodox understanding of grace (skipping the complex debates on the subject of the nature of grace) is that God's grace is active in some way to accomplish certain purposes; hence the Church's commitment to the Sacraments as means of grace--means through which God's grace is active in our lives in such a way as to affect something meaningful. Hence we are born again through Holy Baptism, because Baptism is the means of grace by which God gives and accomplishes the gift and work of new life.

Grace is more than just a common thing that simply means we can choose to be better through our own efforts, and thus through our own ability by striving toward the good we can attain that which is necessary for the beatific life. It is special, it renders sins forgiven, it reconciles the estranged back to God, it heals the wounds of sin and death, it unites us to Jesus Christ, it gives us the Holy Spirit, it adopts us as children of the Father, and thus it brings us into communion with God.

The Pelagian system is unorthodox not because (or simply because) it is non-Augustinian; but because Pelagianism has no room for the Gospel as the Gospel. Pelagianism is simply moralism. Pelagianism amounts in saying, "Get good". That's the answer to our estrangement from God, our broken relationships with one another and the rest of creation, it simply promotes moralistic self-improvement and thus even when it speaks about grace, it denies grace as grace.

This isn't just problematic for robust Augustinians like Lutherans and Calvinists, it is problematic for Christianity on the whole. That's what makes Pelagianism heresy, whereas the debates between Lutherans and Catholics, Catholics and Orthodox, or Calvinists and Arminians mere theological debate by comparison. Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminians, Orthodox can all agree on Christianity a la the work of God saving, healing, mending the world through Jesus Christ and His grace which is for the world in Jesus. The same cannot be said of Pelagianism, not without totally destroying all meaning of words like reconciliation, grace, salvation, etc.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnT

Regular Member
Oct 27, 2007
823
117
Finger Lakes, NY
✟19,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Grace is more than just a common thing that simply means we can choose to be better through our own efforts, and thus through our own ability by striving toward the good we can attain that which is necessary for the beatific life. It is special, it renders sins forgiven, it reconciles the estranged back to God, it heals the wounds of sin and death, it unites us to Jesus Christ, it gives us the Holy Spirit, it adopts us as children of the Father, and thus it brings us into communion with God.

That above warms my heart to go back to my grad school days then in Philadelphia. I really enjoyed the professors some of whom lit a fire about Reformed theology in my soul. For the first time, I understood that my election and salvation was all of God's grace, and nothing from my own efforts.

Thus I simultaneously developed a dislike of theology that was sacerdotal in nature, where one had to partake of this or that sacrament in order to merit salvific grace.

Those are plainly are heresies, and are far removed from the fact that Abraham believed, and thereby was justified. (paraphrased).

In practicality, that created a strong dislike for the theologies of Mormonism, and the SDA church. The former is based on doing "endowments" or rites that make the LDS follower "worthy" and the latter is a "salvation by food" whereby the adherent is to stay away from eating "unclean meat" such as pork, and eating certain grains.

Of course, there is much more in the beliefs of these religions; all I did was to touch the surface of their beliefs, and mention them using general terminology. If anyone wants to see their restrictions they impose upon their adherents, they are easy to find on the Internet.

When one looks at their differences, you will see some restrictions on drinking coffee, and believe it or not, the SDAs prohibit (from Ellen's writings) eating "warm bread" as it harms the digestion system. Thus all pizzas are verboten if they are warm from the oven.

No, I am not going to discuss the validity of any of the rules of either.religion but there can be no doubt that both have a theology of works which is an anathema to unmerited, free grace

Thus, both hold that grace is merited, and only comes from following certain rules. Now y'all know why I post as I do on certain topics.
 
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Not much to say here. Pelagius had a major criticism of Augustine's Original sin. He was a strong proponent of Free Will, which I would argue is in some sense where Arminianism stems from.

I think that with many of the church fathers (though I have not read much on this) they say some really good things, but are ultimately are sinful flawed creatures. Even Luther, the Catholic Church, [insert x church father here] have ideas and doctrines that are pretty off base. Luther was an anti-semite, the Catholic Church believes that is not by grace through faith. This is pretty much true across the board.

But there is a special place for heresy and I am just wondering how doctrines like from Pelagius are somehow being brought up again after he was branded strictly a heretic.

Branded a heretic by the Catholic church, not by God.
Galileo was called a heretic by the same people... but was he?
 
  • Like
Reactions: bmjackson
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,148,608.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
I once looked up the little text we have from Pelagius. I’m not an admirer of Augustine, but Pelagius seemed to ignore grace, and was too moralistic for me. I would have considered his view a big problem. Those who are interested in Arminius or Wesley should not confuse that with Pelagius.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,180
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,582.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Not much to say here. Pelagius had a major criticism of Augustine's Original sin. He was a strong proponent of Free Will, which I would argue is in some sense where Arminianism stems from.

I think that with many of the church fathers (though I have not read much on this) they say some really good things, but are ultimately are sinful flawed creatures. Even Luther, the Catholic Church, [insert x church father here] have ideas and doctrines that are pretty off base. Luther was an anti-semite, the Catholic Church believes that is not by grace through faith. This is pretty much true across the board.

But there is a special place for heresy and I am just wondering how doctrines like from Pelagius are somehow being brought up again after he was branded strictly a heretic.

Arminianism is not Pelagian, and Pelagianism is a heresy. There are problems with St. Augustine’s refutation of Pelagius; a superior explanation of Original Sin was given by another Latin theologian and contemporary of St. Augustine, St. John Cassian, whose views on Original Sin are the basis of Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox doctrine on the subject, and historically that of the Western church until the late Dark Ages, when manuscripts became extremely scarce and most monasteries only had copies of St. Augustine (likely because they took solace in his work The City of God, which provided hope to the people in Western Europe after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, and the following centuries in which Spain and North Africa and the Holy Land were conquered by Muslims, and conditions in Western Europe in particular got really bad, with the Benedictine monasteries being the main instrument which held Western European civilization together; likewise monasticism in the Christian East was also extremely important, but the Eastern churches had much more access to books owing to a knowledge of languages other than Latin, and St. Augustine never really caught on in the Eastern churches as a major theological figure, although his sainthood is recognized and there are icons and services commemorating him.

The main improvement of St. John Cassian’s theory of original sin and anti-Pelagian theology is that it does not link the transmission of original sin to sexual reproduction; rather we inherit it as a result of the Fall. We also have free will to accept or reject God, but this free will is the result of the Holy Spirit moving us to embrace God, which overcomes the proddings of the devil to remain in sin, thus giving us a choice. The one thing God cannot do is make us love Him, for true love is voluntary, as Metropolitan Kallistos Ware pointed out in a lecture entitled Salvation In Christ, which I can link you to on YouTube if desired

However, the heresy of Pelagius is because he blasphemously claimed humans could save themselves, on their own. The early Church, and Arminian Christians like John Wesley, teach that we are saved by Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The difference with Calvinism is simply that we can elect to be numbered among the Elect, or alternately if we hate God, he won’t force us to live with Him; as CS Lewis wrote, the Gates of Hell are locked on the inside.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,180
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,582.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I once looked up the little text we have from Pelagius. I’m not an admirer of Augustine, but Pelagius seemed to ignore grace, and was too moralistic for me. I would have considered his view a big problem. Those who are interested in Arminius or Wesley should not confuse that with Pelagius.

You are absolutely right my friend. Likewise the early Church after the rejection of Monergism at the Fifth Ecumenical Council.
 
Upvote 0