Is Paul addressing the elect in these passages?

[bling]

Even in the NIV you quote it specifies "...passed over sins committed beforehand unpunished. Sin committed before hand refers to past sins; not present or future sins. You cannot add to the text what it does not state.

When one is saved and regenerated in the Spirit/born again, one confesses one sins up to that point and is forgiven as the blood of Jesus is propitiation for those sins. When you were saved, did you confess your future sins? I doubt it as you likely confessed things that you were already guilty of - not sins you will potentially commit in the future. If you believe that current sins not yet repented of, and future sins yet to be committed are automatically forgiven then by logical extension you can be antinomian in your belief. You can even believe that you can accept the mark of the beast in the future and the blood of Jesus will still serve as propitiation for that sin. Do you believe that?

Paul is not addressing “my” or any Christians: “past sins” (with committed beforehand or previously committed sins). Paul is contrasting before and after the cross sins. These previous sins are ones committed by forgiven sinners prior to the cross, which God did not have an atonement sacrifice for, so God “past over them”/ “leaving them unpunished”. After the cross these rebellious disobedient sins are “punished” (really disciplined since children should never be punished but need to be disciplined if at all possible). The shower of Christ’s blood is found on the path, so as long as we stay on the path we are constantly showered clean with Christ’s blood.

 

[K Watt]

Paul is not addressing “my” or any Christians: “past sins” (with committed beforehand or previously committed sins). Paul is contrasting before and after the cross sins. These previous sins are ones committed by forgiven sinners prior to the cross, which God did not have an atonement sacrifice for, so God “past over them”/ “leaving them unpunished”. After the cross these rebellious disobedient sins are “punished” (really disciplined since children should never be punished but need to be disciplined if at all possible). The shower of Christ’s blood is found on the path, so as long as we stay on the path we are constantly showered clean with Christ’s blood.

That is not biblical.
1 John 1
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[bling]

We have to confess our sins after we choose to follow Christ.

Do you believe we will be saved if we lead a life of sin and fail to confess and repent?

I believe Christ blood is constantly showering me and making me holy and cleansed, but the blood is only found on the path, so I do have to remain on the path.

 

[K Watt]

I believe Christ blood is constantly showering me and making me holy and cleansed, but the blood is only found on the path, so I do have to remain on the path.

You don't confess your sins and ask forgiveness?

 

[K Watt]

I believe Christ blood is constantly showering me and making me holy and cleansed, but the blood is only found on the path, so I do have to remain on the path.

Heb 10:26
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries.

 

[bling]

That is not biblical.
1 John 1
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Is that referring to all Christians after they become Christian or is that referring to the person’s entire life? All mature adults’ sin, but after they become a Christian and have the indwelling Holy Spirit do, they have to sin again?
Read further in 1 John: 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

John says: “but if” and not “but when”, making it contingent in the future.

The indwelling Holy Spirit cannot be involved in sinning and you can involve the Spirit in everything you do, so quit quenching the Spirit (I say that to and for myself).

 

[K Watt]

Is that referring to all Christians after they become Christian or is that referring to the person’s entire life? All mature adults’ sin, but after they become a Christian and have the indwelling Holy Spirit do, they have to sin again?
Read further in 1 John: 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

John says: “but if” and not “but when”, making it contingent in the future.

The indwelling Holy Spirit cannot be involved in sinning and you can involve the Spirit in everything you do, so quit quenching the Spirit (I say that to and for myself).

You must confess your sins when you fail. Christ will forgive you but not if you reject his teaching and follow your own path.

He will not stop us from leaving him, but he will welcome us back if we repent.

 

[bling]

You don't confess your sins and ask forgiveness?

Yes!! It helps especially with not repeating the same sin and we are told to do it to help us. The idea of a Christian going to their death with some unconfessed sin and thus being hell bound, is not how a Loving Parent handles rebellious disobedience of a repentant child if that child dies. The blood of Christ cleanses the Christian who does not leave the path, prior to him/her asking. Confessing and asking for forgiveness is a help for the Christian sinner.

 

[bling]

You must confess your sins when you fail. Christ will forgive you but not if you reject his teaching and follow your own path.

He will not stop us from leaving him, but he will welcome us back if we repent.

I agree with that, but we are not jumping on and off the path, but really have to intentionally walk away. Eternal life is described as our inheritance and a birthright. A birthright cannot be stolen, lost like a set of keys, or even taken back by your father, but like Esau (who gave his birthright away) we can intentionally give our birthright to heaven away.

 

[Oldmantook]

Paul is not addressing “my” or any Christians: “past sins” (with committed beforehand or previously committed sins). Paul is contrasting before and after the cross sins. These previous sins are ones committed by forgiven sinners prior to the cross, which God did not have an atonement sacrifice for, so God “past over them”/ “leaving them unpunished”. After the cross these rebellious disobedient sins are “punished” (really disciplined since children should never be punished but need to be disciplined if at all possible). The shower of Christ’s blood is found on the path, so as long as we stay on the path we are constantly showered clean with Christ’s blood.

You've evaded my point. So do your future sins get automatically forgiven since you're only disciplined not punished? So do those believers who take the mark of the beast get only disciplined or punished? All believers have a choice whether or not to stay on the path. Answer please.

 

[bling]

You've evaded my point. So do your future sins get automatically forgiven since you're only disciplined not punished? So do those believers who take the mark of the beast get only disciplined or punished? All believers have a choice whether or not to stay on the path. Answer please.

I was not trying to address your “point”, but your trying to support you “point” with miss interpretation of Ro. 3:25. Severe disciplining feels like punishment, but God and Christ are going through it with you (like good parents often do), so it is both a learning and relationship building experience.

You can sin and not leave the path, so those sins are automatically washed away. There would be no need to have Christ’s blood constantly flowing over the path if we immediately left the path with each sin. I think Peter sinned after be a Christian when he moved away from the gentile Christians, but he did not leave the path and when Paul corrected him to his face he confessed, I feel Peter repented and asked for everyone’s forgiveness. All of this would help Peter in the future.

I am not sure about the “Christians” who took the mark of the beast, but it sounds like they were hell bound at that point?

 

[K Watt]

Yes!! It helps especially with not repeating the same sin and we are told to do it to help us. The idea of a Christian going to their death with some unconfessed sin and thus being hell bound, is not how a Loving Parent handles rebellious disobedience of a repentant child if that child dies. The blood of Christ cleanses the Christian who does not leave the path, prior to him/her asking. Confessing and asking for forgiveness is a help for the Christian sinner.

How does one leave the path?

 

[bling]

How does one leave the path?

If you reject God's Love, which includes rejecting God's forgiveness. There are perceived pleasures in sinning, if you continue to seek after carnal pleasures the value of God's Love (Unselfish, unconditional, Godly type Love) losses it's value and you do want it or care to have it so you give it away and don't care it is gone. A person returns to wanting and seeking being loved for the way they want others to perceive them to be and not for who they really are.

 

[Oldmantook]

I was not trying to address your “point”, but your trying to support you “point” with miss interpretation of Ro. 3:25. Severe disciplining feels like punishment, but God and Christ are going through it with you (like good parents often do), so it is both a learning and relationship building experience.

You can sin and not leave the path, so those sins are automatically washed away. There would be no need to have Christ’s blood constantly flowing over the path if we immediately left the path with each sin. I think Peter sinned after be a Christian when he moved away from the gentile Christians, but he did not leave the path and when Paul corrected him to his face he confessed, I feel Peter repented and asked for everyone’s forgiveness. All of this would help Peter in the future.

I am not sure about the “Christians” who took the mark of the beast, but it sounds like they were hell bound at that point?

Yes everyone including Christians are "hell bound if they choose to take the mark. Rev 14:9-10 states If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
"Anyone" means everyone including Christians. That is why Christians are exhorted in v.12 to overcome and keep their faith instead of bowing to pressure to accept the mark" This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
This demonstrates that the sin of accepting the mark is not automatically washed away and those who do so are not merely disciplined but are punished in the lake of fire.

 

[BobRyan]

A believer falling is not a pretty sight. But at least it's consequences are temporal alone. We already know that the Lord Jesus will not lose any that the Father has given him. God Bless

Gal 5:4 "fallen from grace...severed from Christ" could be only temporary if the person repents.

Notice that it is a focus on doing that results in that state -

. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

What are they "Doing" that results in being "severed from Christ... fallen from grace"?

 

[K Watt]

If you reject God's Love, which includes rejecting God's forgiveness. There are perceived pleasures in sinning, if you continue to seek after carnal pleasures the value of God's Love (Unselfish, unconditional, Godly type Love) losses it's value and you do want it or care to have it so you give it away and don't care it is gone. A person returns to wanting and seeking being loved for the way they want others to perceive them to be and not for who they really are.

I agree, but that contradicts the doctrine of Perseverance of the saints.

 

[lismore]

Paul was clearly talking about salvation in these passages.

I disagree. I believe you are throwing together several distinct concepts as though they were synonymous.

So you believe that you can reject Christ and still be saved?

I don't believe I can reject Christ.

Do you think Judas was saved?

I don't see where that passage mentions Judas. God Bless

 

[lismore]

Gal 5:4 "fallen from grace...severed from Christ" could be only temporary if the person repents.

Hello Bob. Again I think you're marrying two distinct concepts together.

And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace (Romans 11:6)

And as the apostle also says:

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames (1 Corinthians 3:12 )

So here we see that being saved is distinct from 'suffering loss'. 'Falling' I would say is similar to the latter. Salvation is by grace, but a believer may well find himself in the position of being saved 'but only as if through the flames' if that believer, for example, got into preaching legalism instead of the glorious gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

 

[Dkh587]

Salvation is a process, not an event.

Exactly. We were saved through faith in Christ, are being saved now, and will be saved on judgement day.

 

[Ilikecats]

1 Cor 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

Romans 11
22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

The first passage you quote refers to gentiles not being too full of themselves because God choose them over the unsaved in Israel. It’s stating that it is easy for God to remove or graft unto the tree. The second passage is giving evidence that Christians still have to ability to sin when they are saved and not to fall into the temptations of the flesh and instead heed the Holy Spirit inside of them. The verses have nothing to do with the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. For Jesus is the author and finisher of your faith- Hebrews 12:2