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Is Paul a fake Apostle ?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Rvmb, Sep 18, 2020.

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  1. Rvmb

    Rvmb New Member

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    I believe Paul is a genuine Apostle and like to find references to Paul apart from the Books he wrote.
    eg of independent references :-
    Acts 9 10-11
    Acts 9 26-27
    2 Peter 3 15
    These were written by Luke and Peter respectively and appear to be an independent verification of Paul.
    Why do I bring this up ?
    There are many sites that question or disregard/reject Paul and accuse him of being an imposter and or worse.
     
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  2. All Glory To God

    All Glory To God Active Member

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    Just to let you know, I think it is against forum rules to challenge Pauls position as an Apostle in this forum. So starting a thread ''is Paul a fake Apostle'' would probably come under that.

    It is also quite a strange first post for a new member. Most take the time to introduce themself not bring an Apostle into question.
     
  3. Heartofsilver

    Heartofsilver Bride of Christ 4/8/17 Isaiah 54:5 Supporter

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    Even though I don't agree with this subject I am wondering, why isn't he allowed to research these topics and ask questions about it on here?
     
  4. Jok

    Jok Well-Known Member

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    Delete. It sounded cocky when I re-read it today
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  5. All Glory To God

    All Glory To God Active Member

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    You tell me? Why doesn't this forum allow Paul to be called a fake Apostle? Read it for yourself and see what you think:


    Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  6. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    It is against forum rules to challenge, or dispute, Paul's apostleship - if that is a word.
    But I would think that asking a question is ok, especially if they are confused about forums which claim otherwise.
     
  7. Jok

    Jok Well-Known Member

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    His very first words are “I believe Paul is a genuine apostle”

    Ok bad title choice I suppose, but first sentence clears it up.
     
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  8. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes, there are some Christians who seem to think that only Jesus' words are important, or that we can only trust what Jesus said. I have read comments - even on here - which said that Paul was contradicting Jesus, or preached another Gospel.

    But apart from anything else, Paul's letters are in the Bible. If someone says that they don't accept Paul, it suggests that they don't accept that Scripture is inerrant, or that the Holy Spirit made a mistake.
     
  9. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    I think something to consider is that probably every original, rival, sectarian group claiming to be Christian acknowledged Paul as an apostle. The Gnostics claimed Paul as their apostle:

    The Gnostic Paul - Wikipedia

    One either believes that Paul is an apostle of Christ or rejects Christianity. One either believes the “prophet” of Islam is who he is or rejects that particular faith.
     
  10. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul is as genuine as any other apostle. There is no record of any of the other apostles having doubts. The opposite in fact.
     
  11. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I personally have found that the theology of Paul is a match with all that Jesus has said and done. Jesus was talking with people before they had the Holy Spirit; I see how Jesus has used Paul . . . but also Peter and John and Jude and James . . . to bring us to a deeper understanding, more in the spiritual . . . with even spiritual practical things.

    I think Paul would say, these epistles are not really what I have written, but these are what Jesus is saying through me.

    So, a hidden deception in discussing Paul is we can let the idea sneak in that he wrote, when in true reality Jesus through the Holy Spirit wrote what Paul has given us.

    And it looks to me like Jesus is taking us onward from the Gospels, maybe to more spiritual depth, now that we have the Holy Spirit to get things.
     
  12. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    That would be like asking if 95% of the NT epistles are fake.

    It should not have to be be asked.

    What I would question (and make note of) are those who claim Paul was not genuine.
     
  13. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here is an example of what I mean by a spiritually practical thing which Jesus has given us through Paul >

    "Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

    In the Gospels, Jesus has already said to forgive and to not give in to anger and lust and hate. Here we see a practical approach > put it away from us, if it is anti-love. And we have what to do, instead > to love one another kindly and tenderly. This is something practical and spiritual . . . in the spirituality of God's love. This fits with what Jesus says, though this goes further, I would say.

    Now that we have the Holy Spirit, Jesus is the One taking us further.

    And we see how Jesus wants us to forgive . . . not only the way we can get ourselves to do . . . not only as a practice to make sure we ourselves are forgiven . . . but forgive "even as God".

    God does not need to forgive in order to make sure He is forgiven, I now get!!! :) lolololololololol He forgives out of security, not worrying that unforgiveness could keep Him from being forgiven! So, we should forgive out of security, not just out of worry that we could miss out on being forgiven. And God has forgiven us generously and tenderly and kindly . . . not just clearing our slate from a distance, but intimately in His love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5). Sow, then > with this forgiving "even as God" we become intimate with God in His love which has us also tenderly and kindly and generously forgiving.

    So, now perhaps we can see why certain ones want to throw Paul out. Jesus uses Paul to show Satan up. Jesus resurrected now brings us to ever more and better, even than all Jesus did and said while on this earth.

    And Paul, then, is who I would say is our thirteenth apostle.

    May be this is why Satan's kingdom does not like the number 13.

    Paul gets into practical detail about how to love. For example . . . as leaders > look at how Paul and Silvanus and Timothy related with the Thessalonians > in 1 Thessalonians 2:7-11 >

    "just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children"

    "we exhorted, and comforted, and charged every one of you, as a father does his own children"

    They related personally and intimately as family with God's children. But this is not how some number of church culture leaders relate. Plus, this shows up the ones who deny Paul, I would bet. It shows how they in their haste to just judge Paul are not about loving like Paul is. And it appears to me how Jesus so related tenderly and personally, even in intimate sharing with certain ones who could handle relating closely with Jesus . . . like Mary at His feet and John who rested his head on Christ's bosom.

    So, how Paul related in love is a match with how Jesus loved on this earth. And, like I say, this shows up how Satan is with his children; so of course Satan will have people bad-mouthing Paul.

    Therefore, not only is Paul's writing a match with Christ's message, but how Jesus has Paul love and say to love is a matching example. Because Jesus speaking and loving through Paul is the same Jesus.
     
  14. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Who are those Christians, Thanks Daniel
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    As was mentioned, we read a post here on CF that was to that effect only days ago, although I forget who the author was. And I know that I've encountered other such people before. I called them "red letter" Christians because of those Bible versions which put Jesus' own words in red, unlike the rest of the text, but I didn't make up the term myself.

    In addition, I have to "second" what 'Strong in Him' went on to say. We cannot just pick and choose the parts of the Bible we want to consider as authoritative.

    The Church decided this long ago. We may contend that the councils which did it were not infallible, but they overwhelmingly ratified what the congregations across the Christian world had already decided. We today either stand with all of that or we put ourselves into sinking sand on this very important issue of the authority of divine revelation.
     
  16. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    I have bumped into a few over the years. They are what I would call the "Antifa" of Christianity. Very bad attitude and impossible to reason with.
     
  17. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I don't know.
    A couple have popped up on here over the years and written posts about Paul being a false Apostle. I can't even begin to guess at their names; I'd only get it wrong and insult an innocent person.

    I have see clips on Youtube that say the same thing. One guy was a Pastor, I think.
     
  18. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    There's been an anti-Pauline sentiment among various heretics since the beginning, we can see this right in Paul's own letters in regard to the various Judaizing factions.

    One of the most famously anti-Pauline heretical groups in antiquity were the Ebionites. The Ebionites were a pseudo-Jewish heretical Christian sect (which may or may not have had some Gnostic tendencies), who were chiefly known for their rejection of Paul as a false apostle, and their rejection of Christ's virgin birth. They had their own "gospel" text, known as the "Gospel of the Ebionites" which is lost to us except in a few quotes from later sources such as St. Epiphanius of Salamis' Panarion, a catalogue of heretical groups and their false teachings. In addition to this, the Ebionites also taught that Jesus was an ordinary human being who became the Son of God through his righteous adherence to the Torah.

    These ideas, therefore, aren't new--they've been around for a long time.

    And just like the Judaizers of the 1st century, and the Ebionites later on, anti-Pauline sentiment very often shows up among Judaizers, especially radical Judaizers. And it's not hard to see why, if one is trying to say that one has to adhere to and observe the Torah in order to be a Christian, then Paul has to go. Either by dismissing him altogether, or by dismissing what he says and making up something in its place. Because Paul, read plainly and obviously, very clearly doesn't give such people any room.

    That there are heretics who want to re-invent Christianity and make up their own religion shouldn't be surprising. It's been going on since the time of the apostles themselves.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  19. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    ADVISOR HAT

    This thread is closed. Please review the Statement of Purpose for this forum. It includes:

    It is considered off topic to challenge Paul's place as an Apostle.
     
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