Is organized religion evil?

[zephcom]

I am only addressing Christian responses in this thread.

I'm good with that. My comments are valid for everyone reading the thread.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, while there may appear to be peaceful Muslims, the Koran at it's core is violent (Which leads many to act violent).

Sweden is the rape capital of the world.
“Mass immigration, mostly from Muslim nations, has utterly transformed many Swedish cities, leading to the development of “no-go zones” where law enforcement fears to tread.

Sweden’s Sins and Muslims for Judgment – John McTernan's Insights

 

[Bible Highlighter]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Indeed, the word "religion" is a good thing.

Which is why I used "organized religion" which changes its context entirely. Which in this context means religion that is corrupted by flawed men.

I am not so sure you are regarding the term correctly.

Christianity is regarded as an organized religion:

The meaning of organized religion.

Organized religion - Wikipedia
organized religion | Definition of organized religion in English by Oxford Dictionaries

By pure logic, the Bible tells us to organize together or to have fellowship and to follow a certain set of truths, and teachings as a part of having a relationship with the Creator (Jesus Christ).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Organize definition:

make arrangements or preparations for (an event or activity); coordinate.​

Christians make preparations to worship GOD together. They coordinate together to help the poor, preach the gospel, to train each other in righteous living (All according to God's Word).

 

[Hidden In Him]

I have Muslim friends who helped me in times of difficulty. By their deeds, they are good people.

There a lot of good Muslims out there, Timewerx. Good, kind-hearted people who will go out of their way to help you, and who are quick to smile and give you an encouraging word.

Don't discount this by any means, appreciate everything they do for you, and do your best to reciprocate for them. There are some very good aspects to the religion of Islam, just as there are good aspects to even heretical forms of Christianity. If Satan did not include good aspects into the false organized religions he inspires in the earth, few would ever buy into them. But as @Jason0047 pointed out in Post #8, there is one true faith; the one laid down by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ (note: I don't agree with Jason on all his views, but Post #8 is a good answer to what you were asking).

To me, any religion worth it's salt will become organized. The apostles were very organized about the faith they were laying down (Titus 1:5, and several related verses). But even regarding the creation of our Christian denominations, Satan gets in the middle of things and starts corrupting them. Many of our present-day denominations started out very strong, but within a few generations became corrupted. The same was true of what had become of Judaism by the time of Christ. It was clearly an organized religion, and to say it was evil would essentially be to say God Himself was evil, because God created it in its entirety from the outset. But like with anything else, Satan succeeded at corrupting it.

In the end, Christianity in its purest form will manifest in the earth. It will indeed be "organized" in the sense that it will be led entirely by the Spirit of God, and as such will be a marvel to the world because no human or fleshly means of organization will control it.

It's a matter of Who controls an organized religion, not the concept of organized religion itself.

 

[DogmaHunter]

By default, and without additional details, I'ld have to answer the thread question with "yes".

Indeed, I do find organized religion to be evil. It essentially involves a group of people, "the elite", who are going to decide what the many followers, "the sheep", are going to have to believe. And typically, these sheep are demanded to believe those things through fear tactics and by threat of "eternal suffering".

Beliefs are not to be "decided" - especially not by (perceived) authorities.
Neither should they be imposed through emotional blackmail.

Organized religion, causes a lot of harm.

 

[bhsmte]

The premise rests entirely on the Greek word "διάβολος" or "diabolos". Devil in English....

Strong's definition of "diabolos"

Short Definition: slanderous, the Slanderer, the Devil
Definition: (adj. used often as a noun), slanderous; with the article: the Slanderer (par excellence), the Devil.

1228 diábolos (from 1225 /diabállō, "to slander, accuse, defame") – properly, a slanderer; a false accuser; unjustly criticizing to hurt (malign) and condemn to sever a relationship.

[1228 (diábolos) is the root of the English word, "Devil" (see also Webster's Dictionary).

1228 (diabolos) in secular Greek means "backbiter," i.e. an accuser, calumniator (slanderer). 1228 (diábolos) is literally someone who "casts through," i.e. making charges that bring down (destroy). Satan is used by God in this plan – as a predictable wind-up toy, playing out his evil nature.]

False accuser in short....

Perhaps, there's no other group in the entire world to have caused each other to (falsely) accuse another of evil than organized religion...

Falsely accusing other people of being evil for the "offense" of simply not a member of the religion we belong to... For example, the Muslims, calling non-Muslims "infidels". An infidel is synonymous to being evil.

But Jesus said, "you shall know them by their fruits" (not according to their religion or w/e). Our deeds is what makes us evil or good, not the label!

No, religion in general is not evil or bad.

The source of bad are individual people and bad people will sometimes gravitate to certain religions and define it in such a way, as they use it as their personal weapon.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There a lot of good Muslims out there, Timewerx. Good, kind-hearted people who will go out of their way to help you, and who are quick to smile and give you an encouraging word.

First, nobody can truly live righteously without Jesus Christ; And all men besides Jesus have sinned at some point in their lives (of which I am sure you agree).

Second, if you have not seen the following video, please check it out, my friend.

Three, there are 600 to 1,000 commands within the New Testament.

This site reports 1,050:
1,050 New Testament Commands | Christian Assemblies International

This site reports 684 passages (for God's commands in the New Testament):
List of Commands in the New Testament - Biblical Research Reports

Not doing these righteous things can have grievious consequences to a person's soul if not repented of. No doubt there are many commands of our Lord that these supposedly good Muslims are breaking. In other words, human morality is not the same as God's standard of morality.

Now, many Christians today think we are under no law salvation wise, but what about 1 John 3:23? What they fail to realize is Paul was talking about the Old Covenant Law when he was speaking of the "law" generically. Romans 3:1 says, "what profit is there in circumcision?" Galatians 5:2 says, "if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." The variation of the word "circumcised" appears 6 times in Galatians 2 (Which is before the mention of the Law in Galatians 3). So Paul was not talking about all law. Paul asked the question, "shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Old Law)?" Paul's answer to that question was, "God forbid." Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Don't discount this by any means, appreciate everything they do for you, and do your best to reciprocate for them. There are some very good aspects to the religion of Islam, just as there are good aspects to even heretical forms of Christianity. If Satan did not include good aspects into the false organized religions he inspires in the earth, few would ever buy into them.

This is true. People fail to recognize what evils exist within other religions compared to the goodness that comes from walking in Jesus Christ.

But as @Jason0047 pointed out in Post #8, there is one true faith; the one laid down by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ (note: I don't agree with Jason on all his views, but Post #8 is a good answer to what you were asking).

Thank you for agreeing with my post.

To me, any religion worth it's salt will become organized. The apostles were very organized about the faith they were laying down (Titus 1:5, and several related verses). But even regarding the creation of our Christian denominations, Satan gets in the middle of things and starts corrupting them. Many of our present-day denominations started out very strong, but within a few generations became corrupted. The same was true of what had become of Judaism by the time of Christ. It was clearly an organized religion, and to say it was evil would essentially be to say God Himself was evil, because God created it in its entirety from the outset. But like with anything else, Satan succeeded at corrupting it.

In the end, Christianity in its purest form will manifest in the earth. It will indeed be "organized" in the sense that it will be led entirely by the Spirit of God, and as such will be a marvel to the world because no human or fleshly means of organization will control it.

It's a matter of Who controls an organized religion, not the concept of organized religion itself.

I agree on this point 100%.

May God bless you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Now, many Christians today think we are under no law salvation wise, but what about 1 John 3:23? What they fail to realize is Paul was talking about the Old Covenant Law when he was speaking of the "law" generically. Romans 3:1 says, "what profit is there in circumcision?" Galatians 5:2 says, "if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." The variation of the word "circumcised" appears 6 times in Galatians 2 (Which is before the mention of the Law in Galatians 3). So Paul was not talking about all law. Paul asked the question, "shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Old Law)?" Paul's answer to that question was, "God forbid." Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

I agree with all that as well. But now my instruction was for him to acknowledge the good and kind things that Muslims did for him as being precisely that - good and kind, not to acknowledge anyone as saved. Those are two different issues.

Btw, your video didn't play so I wasn't able to watch it, but I do get the idea.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree with all that as well. But now my instruction was for him to acknowledge the good and kind things that Muslims did for him as being precisely that - good and kind, not to acknowledge anyone as saved. Those are two different issues.

But doing some good things does not make one righteous if they are also doing evil things (Which is a fact if they have not accepted Christ).

Hebrews 6:1 also says,
"....not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,"

In other words, ones works are dead if one has not accepted Christ and they are not continuing to abide in Him and His good ways.

Btw, your video didn't play so I wasn't able to watch it, but I do get the idea.

Try this video:

If that doesn't work, go to YouTube and search the video using the keywords,

"Are you a good person?"

It is the video that looks animated like a cartoon.

Hope this helps.
And may God's love shine upon you today.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But doing some good things does not make one righteous if they are also doing evil things (Which is a fact).

Hebrews 6:1 also says,
"....not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,"

In other words, ones works are dead if one has not accepted Christ and they are not continuing to abide in Him and His good ways.

Jason! I'm not saying any of that either. You have a way of quickly getting confrontational with people without necessarily intending to, buddy. But so you understand (hopefully), I simply mean BE GRATEFUL/ Show gratitude to them for treating you nicely, LoL. If you hit me with another barrage of scripture again, I'm gonna send you this kitten I've got playing around with my typing hand so I can't write, LoL. Sometimes I think you need it more than I do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason! I'm not saying any of that either. You have a way of quickly getting confrontational with people without necessarily intending to, buddy. But so you understand (hopefully), I simply mean BE GRATEFUL/ Show gratitude to them for treating you nicely, LoL. If you hit me with another barrage of scripture again, I'm gonna send you this kitten I've got playing around with my typing hand so I can't write, LoL. Sometimes I think you need it more than I do.

I cannot read your mind. When you say that these Muslims are being kind and good, in reality they truly are not doing so because their motivations are not grounded upon Jesus Christ. They can have an appearance of doing good, but whatsoever is not of the faith is sin. I just wanted to clarify what you were saying here so that there is no confusion. You said they were doing good. I am saying that they are not doing good. They may have the appearance of doing some good works, but at the heart, their motivation is not founded upon Jesus Christ. So these are dead works.

As for being confrontational with Scripture:
Jesus says He came not to send peace, but a sword.
We are told to preach the Word and contend for the faith.
Nothing was done with any ill will towards you but to preach the truth of God's Word (Because I honestly care about you and others).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason! I'm not saying any of that either. You have a way of quickly getting confrontational with people without necessarily intending to, buddy. But so you understand (hopefully), I simply mean BE GRATEFUL/ Show gratitude to them for treating you nicely, LoL. If you hit me with another barrage of scripture again, I'm gonna send you this kitten I've got playing around with my typing hand so I can't write, LoL. Sometimes I think you need it more than I do.

Again, for clarification: I am not trying to be hostile with you. Words do not convey emotion. Sometimes we read into words things that are not there. I am merely taking a stand for what I believe to be right in love and in truth. You should realize that I am a Biblical Pacifist and that I believe in praying and doing good and loving my enemies. So hostility in the sense that you think does not exist for me. Well, there are certain sins that I find upsetting, but I strive always to love the sinner and hate the sin. When you see controntation, that is my standing up for what I believe is right and good in God's Word. You should not take it as a physical attack. God's Word in itself is offensive to men (Granted, I am not saying you are taking offense with the Word of God in what I am saying). I just disagree with your statement that Muslims can do good. I believe the Scriptures teach that unbelievers cannot truly do good in God's eyes. Why? Because it is God who does the good work through the believer. For God alone is good.

Side Note:

Did you see the video called "Are you a good person"? It is really good. It makes a great point here. Please go to YouTube if you have to check it out. It will definitely be worth your while, my friend.

Anyways, peace be unto you in the Lord.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Again, for clarification: I am not trying to be hostile with you. Words do not convey emotion. Sometimes we read into words things that are not there. I am merely taking a stand for what I believe to be right in love and in truth. You should realize that I am a Biblical Pacifist and that I believe in praying and doing good and loving my enemies. So hostility in the sense that you think does not exist for me. Well, there are certain sins that I find upsetting, but I strive always to love the sinner and hate the sin. When you see controntation, that is my standing up for what I believe is right and good in God's Word.

I understand, Jason. The thing is, you do several things at once that tend to lead to a great deal of debate, and debate when it is actually not necessary is regarded in scripture as a bad thing (2 Timothy 2:14, 2 Timothy 2:20-21).

I cannot read your mind. When you say that these Muslims are being kind and good, in reality they truly are not doing so because their motivations are not grounded upon Jesus Christ. They can have an appearance of doing good, but whatsoever is not of the faith is sin.

The last sentence would take an incredible amount of work to unpack, and I don't have the energy atm. But in essence you are saying that no one can do any good deed without it being through faith in Christ, when in reality all that is referred to there is the principle that if a person is convicted about something in their conscience about something then it is a sin. That's a different matter. Muslims have a conscience, as do all people. And if they follow their conscience in doing good deeds for others, these good deeds should be acknowledged as such and not referred to as "sins." All the charity that unbelievers offer to help those suffering through natural disasters are good deeds, and should not be referred to as "sins."

But I know we're about to go around and around and around, and I have a LOT of other things to do and people to attend to. So you'll have to forgive me if the rest of my responses have to wait, like till the next conversation maybe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I understand, Jason. The thing is, you do several things at once that tend to lead to a great deal of debate, and debate when it is actually not necessary is regarded in scripture as a bad thing (2 Timothy 2:14, 2 Timothy 2:20-21).

Standing behind God's Word in what it says is not what 2 Timothy 2:14-18 is talking about. 2 Timothy 2:14-18 is talking about striving over words with no profit. Do you believe God's Word is of no profit? In verse 18, some where saying that the resurrection was past already (overthrowing the faith of some). Anyways, the basis for my stand for what I told you I believe is founded upon God's Word. Words like "good" can only mean "good" if it is done by the Lord through the believer. No Muslim or any unbeliever can do any actual good on their own. For God alone is good (Mark 10:18). Verse 16 in 2 Timothy 2 says shun profane and vain babblings. This is what it is talking about in verse 14. Words of no profit. God's Word is not of no profit. I was referring to God's Word and I was not referring to words of no profit like saying the resurrection has already past.

The last sentence would take an incredible amount of work to unpack, and I don't have the energy atm. But in essence you are saying that no one can do any good deed without it being through faith in Christ, when in reality all that is referred to there is the principle that if a person is convicted about something in their conscience about something then it is a sin. That's a different matter. Muslims have a conscience, as do all people. And if they follow their conscience in doing good deeds for others, these good deeds should be acknowledged as such and not referred to as "sins." All the charity that unbelievers offer to help those suffering through natural disasters are good deeds, and should not be referred to as "sins."

Jesus says, God alone is good. So only God can do good. Do you believe this? Everyone else may try to imitate that goodness, but we can only do good by allowing the Lord to work through us. Every supposedly good deed done by an unbeliever is out of a false motivation. Unbelievers do good deeds not out of their love for Jesus Christ, but they do them out of their own sense of morality.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6).

But I know we're about to go around and around and around, and I have a LOT of other things to do and people to attend to. So you'll have to forgive me if the rest of my responses have to wait, like till the next conversation maybe.

No pressures. Whenever you have time to reply with God's Word (and if you feel led to do so by the Lord), please do so, my friend.

May God bless you;
And may your day in the Lord be great.

 

[bhsmte]

I am only addressing Christian responses in this thread.

Should have this moved to the christians only section then.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Standing behind God's Word in what it says is not what 2 Timothy 2:14-18 is talking about. 2 Timothy 2:14-18 is talking about striving over words with no profit. Do you believe God's Word is of no profit? In verse 18, some where saying that the resurrection was past already (overthrowing the faith of some). Anyways, the basis for my stand for what I told you I believe is founded upon God's Word. Words like "good" can only mean "good" if it is done by the Lord through the believer. No Muslim or any unbeliever can do any actual good on their own. For God alone is good (Mark 10:18). Verse 16 in 2 Timothy 2 says shun profane and vain babblings. This is what it is talking about in verse 14. Words of no profit. God's Word is not of no profit. I was referring to God's Word and I was not referring to words of no profit like saying the resurrection has already past.

Jason, you're misinterpreting the passage then. The overriding command is not to strive with others, especially over foolish and unlearned questions, an exhortation he repeats in 2 Timothy 2:23-26 (in V.24 he uses the same word again). The teaching is not "don't teach the things Hymenaeus and Philetus teach." His teaching here was "don't get into debates with men like that over the foolish things they are teaching, because you will give them opportunity to voice their heresies before all in debating with you, and some might be subverted in the process of overhearing the debate."

Jesus says, God alone is good. So only God can do good. Do you believe this?

Jason, to BE good and to DO good are two different things. And to be clear, to do good does not qualify you for Heaven. It must be through faith in Christ Jesus. But that does not change the fact that others can and do do good apart from Christ. It simply will do them no good in eternity if they still reject Him.

Unbelievers do good deeds not out of their love for Jesus Christ, but they do them out of their own sense of morality.

I thought you just got through saying unbelievers cannot do good deeds.

Should have this moved to the christians only section then.

I agree with him here, Jason (and I could really use the break, LoL). Why does he not deserve a response simply because he isn't Christian? That doesn't come off so well, and I actually thought his response in Post #28 was excellent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, you're misinterpreting the passage then. The overriding command is not to strive with others, especially over foolish and unlearned questions, an exhortation he repeats in 2 Timothy 2:23-26 (in V.24 he uses the same word again). The teaching is not "don't teach the things Hymenaeus and Philetus teach." His teaching here was "don't get into debates with men like that over the foolish things they are teaching, because you will give them opportunity to voice their heresies before all in debating with you, and some might be subverted in the process of overhearing the debate."

Which question or point do you think is foolish for me to defend with the truth of God's Word within this thread? Did you not agree with the same points as me within the thread?

Yes, I agree. I strive not to argue about Eschatology. The resurrection is something that is future and is a part of Eschatology or the study of the End Times. I also strive not to argue with people who believe that the Old Law is still in effect in some way. Such discussions I consider as being foolish. It takes wisdom and experience to know which battles to pick.

The Difference Between Fighting the Good Fight of Faith vs. Being Quarrelsome.

Before you were suggesting that I was quarreling with you or others; You even joked about given giving me a kitten or something.

Meaning of Quarrel: an angry argument or disagreement.
Meaning of Strife: Angry or bitter disagreement.

So one has to show that they are angry in their argument to be quarrelsome or to have strife.

But no anger was within my posts; And I was not angry in any way.

We are told to fight for the faith, contend for the faith, rebuke in love, speak in grace seasoned with salt (fiery passion), use God’s Word that is like a fire and a hammer, to think not that Jesus came to send peace but a sword and division, use Scripture for correction, and rebuke.

1. Contend for the faith (Jude 1:3).
2. Fight the good fight of faith (1 Timothy 6:12).
3. Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. (Proverbs 27:5-6).
4. Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man (Colossians 4:6) (cf. Mark 9:49). Note: salt is fiery passion.
5. Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? (Jeremiah 23:29).
6. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law (Matthew 10:34-35).
7. Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division. (Luke 12:51).
8. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
9. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (1 Timothy 5:20).
10. And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:23).

Revelation 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees. We are told to imitate Christ. Paul rebuked Peter. Peter rebuked Simon. We can speak out against what is wrong and or speak for the truth of God’s Word. We are to contend for the faith. Having a disagreement does not mean one is angry, my friend. Now you are throwing down the 2 Timothy 2 "do not answer foolish questions" card. Yet, you had answered the OP in regards to the question and on the issue of Christianity being "organized religion." So I am not sure why you have a problem with me answering these things (When you had done so yourself). Or was your point about something else mentioned in this thread?

Jason, to BE good and to DO good are two different things. And to be clear, to do good does not qualify you for Heaven. It must be through faith in Christ Jesus. But that does not change the fact that others can and do do good apart from Christ. It simply will do them no good in eternity if they still reject Him.

When I tell someone to be good, they can take that as in reference to their behavior. Be good can be in reference to a person's health or well being, too. As for doing good and salvation: If a person abides in Christ (Who is the source of a person's salvation - 1 John 5:12), the good fruit of Christ will be evident in their life because He lives in them. For a tree is known by it's fruit; A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Any tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. For all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20). All who do not righteousness are not of God (1 John 3:10).

I thought you just got through saying unbelievers cannot do good deeds.

Sorry about that. I meant to say that they can have the appearance of doing good deeds, but to GOD, their righteous acts are as filthy rags.

I agree with him here, Jason (and I could really use the break, LoL). Why does he not deserve a response simply because he isn't Christian?

Most atheists here are not interested in coming to the Lord but they are interested in insulting GOD and His Word. The only good is to tell them about Christ's love and peace and that He died for them and risen on their behalf. To preach the good news to them. To talk about His love and how that changed our lives. If they reject that, then the conversation is over. To argue with them over evidences or other things they can never truly understand is a foolish argument like from 2 Timothy 2.

That doesn't come off so well, and I actually thought his response in Post #28 was excellent.

Well, he said religion in general is not evil or bad. This is suggesting that all religions are the same. That they are all a lie or manufactured. Why? Because he is an atheist. He does not believe in God. So he thinks all religions are the same and are a lie. So you think this idea of all religions (being one and the same) are not bad? I think every other religion besides Christianity are evil and bad because they are contrary to the truth of God and His Word. I am sure he does not agree with that line of thinking. So you may want to rephrase what you said here in your liking his post.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jason, it just goes on and on with you... I mean you no ill-will, but in all honesty you are tiresome. You need a full-time Bible teacher and unfortunately I simply can't be that person. I have too much going on. I'll do my best to respond to your questions here and there, but I can't devote the rest of my entire life to teaching only you. It wouldn't be the responsible thing for either of us.

No hard feelings. This may not be what you want to hear, but at least I'm still being open and honest with you. If you wish to learn, listen more closely next time, and guard against assuming to be a teacher. You will have to answer to God some day for it, having made yourself responsible to Him in doing so.

God bless.