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Featured is my infant baptism enough?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. iwbswiaihl

    iwbswiaihl Newbie

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    Eph 1:13-14 not only speaks of adults hearing the word, believing, and receiving the Holy Spirit and being sealed as the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory but every passage that speaks of one getting saved in the NT shows how they saved. By grace through faith, without faith it is impossible to please God. One must come by faith, there is no other way.

    John the baptist was the one the forerunner to Jesus Christ and was the one Malachi 4:5 spoke about and fulfilled that prophecy. You have to read out of that there every baby an example of John the Baptist. The text speaks nothing of infant baptism.
    If only adults received baptism, what is the situation of those under twenty, who also passed through the cloud and the water and were buried into Moses's ministry? Now you make this statement which I never have said that only adults are to be baptized. Go back and find where I said that if you please. Nevertheless that also said nothing whatsoever about infant baptism. It is estimated that maybe 2 million people could have crossed that day, so are we to assume by what you state here that all 2 million of them were saved that day? Another verse that says nothing about infant baptism. In should be clear by now, there is no verse in the whole bible that speaks of infant baptism. I will be on the sidelines from this topic, but whenever anyone shows one verse that actually states infant baptism accomplishes anything to do with salvation by grace through faith, I will be elated, until then, :wave:
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  2. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Wrong. Baptism initiated feeding and watering from the Rock. This edified believers, because the feedings were prototypes of what God planned to get believers into the Promised Land. Obstacle>God's help required>through loyalty>victory.

    God placed an obstacle in Abraham’s/the Israelites’ path>Abraham/Israel doubted>God still saved>Abraham/Israel saved.

    God tested Abraham/Israel>seed fell on relevant soil>Abraham remembered God's great works/Israel forgot God's great works>Abraham saved/Israel perished.

    Deuteronomy 32:18
    "You neglected the Rock who begot you, And forgot the God who gave you birth.

    Psalm 78:11
    They forgot His deeds And His miracles that He had shown them.

    Psalm 106:7
    Our fathers in Egypt did not understand Your wonders; They did not remember Your abundant kindnesses, But rebelled by the sea, at the Red Sea.

    Psalm 106:13
    They quickly forgot His works; They did not wait for His counsel,


    Salvation must be described in the context of the promise to Abraham, that the world would be blessed through his seed. This has continuity with God's plan for Adam, in that Adam would subdue, perfect the world, in union with God. Sin separated Man from God, so God's plan for a loving relationship with Man through union and work was stalled. Getting into the Promised Land is also a continuation of this plan, because abiding in the Land is abiding in the Lord. Else there is a disconnect with the blessings promised to Abraham and the blessings promised to Moses.

    2 Kings 17:24-28
    24The king of Assyria brought menfrom Babylon and from Cuthah and from Avva and from Hamath and Sepharvaim, and settled them in the cities of Samaria in place of the sons of Israel. So they possessed Samaria and lived in its cities. 25At the beginning of their living there, they did not fear the LORD; therefore the LORD sent lions among them which killed some of them. 26So they spoke to the king of Assyria, saying, “The nations whom you have carried away into exile in the cities of Samaria do not know the custom of the god of the land; so he has sent lions among them, and behold, they kill them because they do not know the custom of the god of the land.”

    27Then the king of Assyria commanded, saying, “Take there one of the priests whom you carried away into exile and let him go and live there; and let him teach them the custom of the god of the land.” 28So one of the priests whom they had carried away into exile from Samaria came and lived at Bethel, and taught them how they should fear the LORD.

    Thus the importance of reaching Rest, abiding. Through baptism, leading to revelation of God's plan, by drinking from the Rock, to edify, to strengthen for the task ahead.

    Hebrews 3
    1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

    7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

    8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKEDME,
    AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

    9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
    AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

    10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
    AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
    AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

    11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
    ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

    12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

    15while it is said,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEYPROVOKED ME.”

    16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  3. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    So you're suggesting that salvation is NOT by grace through faith alone? In that case, we'll simply have to agree to disagree since I am absolutely not willing to compromise one iota on the the hope and the promise that Jesus gave to us on the cross. My full faith and trust is in him and not of any claim that salvation is through any method other than commitment to him.
     
  4. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Two points:

    1. Why should the method change from works required to save to works not required for salvation from the Old to the New Covenants?

    It hasn't:

    James 2:14
    14What good does it do, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but does not prove it with actions? This kind of faith cannot save him, can it?

    2. It's widely accepted that faith meant loyalty in the Ancient Near East, and translating it as belief is a serious error.

    Quote
    So, an example of how the Patron-Client system can be relevant to Biblical interpretation is Hebrews 11:1.
    "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (NRSV)
    That is a rather horrible translation.

    The words "faith" (faithfulness) and "hoped" (expected), are technical terms in the Patron-Client system. As noted before, "faithfulness" denotes the client's loyalty to their patron (and also the patron's loyalty to the client). "Expect" denotes the hope of future favours. A client could validly expect favours from their Patron if they had been faithful to their Patron and served them well. Thus, in the first half of the verse we actually just have a basic statement about how the Patron-Client system works: If you are faithful you can expect favours. That's it. It's a summary of how a part of their every-day life society worked. The second half of the verse is just saying the same thing a different way: Our faithfulness testifies that we will receive favours that we haven't yet gotten (that we do not yet "see").

    Historically this verse has been a minefield for people arguing over the definiton of faithfulness. A huge amount of stuff has been written trying to nail down precisely what each of the words in the sentence meant in an effort to get a precise definition of "faith" out of it. (Unfortunately this didn't work too well as a few of the words in the sentence have a variety of translation possibilities) But as a result of these efforts a lot of people are convinced that the Bible here defines faith as belief in things we can't see. As a result of theologians' sterling efforts over the centuries in mining the bible for sentences such as this one they have had great fun in formulating exactly what it means to have "faith". "Faith" had become an almost-magical word, set apart from everyday life.


    That's one of the reasons, I suspect, that theologians have been relatively slow to pick up on the findings of the social sciences. The discovery of how the word "faithfulness" was actually used in the day-to-day life of the first century AD Mediterranean world has made hundreds of years of theological discussions worthless, and a lot of people don't like to let mere facts or evidence get in the way of their ideas and traditions. [Maybe I'm being too harsh, after all, the first book on the subject of linking Social Sciences with NT exegesis was only in 1981, and it was pretty badly written]

    Anyway, the take home lesson is:
    Next time you're reading the bible and you see the words "faith" or "belief" read "faithfulness" instead and think "Patron-Client system = faithfulness repaid with favours". (Of course the result won't make much sense because it won't fit with how the translators have translated the rest of the sentence)

    A great rule to keep in mind is this: Faithfulness is targeted at people, belief is targeted at ideas. You can be committed to a person, or committed to an idea. But talking about faithfulness to an idea, or belief in a person is nonsense.

    Theo Geek: The Patron-Client system and Hebrews 11:1
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  5. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    The purpose of the old covenant of law was fulfilled with Jesus's crucifixion. Now we are under the new covenant of grace. Even under the old covenant, the purpose of the law was not to save us, but to *show* us that we are all criminals, that we all sin, and that we all fall short. Every single one of us. The old covenant was a mirror for our sinfulness, a proof to us that we needed a savior, that we did not have the power to save ourselves.

    Without Jesus and his free gift of grace, there would be no life for any of us, for "the wages of sin is death" and we are all sinners.

    Acts of circumcision, avoiding unclean foods, baptism, or any good works cannot wipe away this sin and *earn* our own salvation. Only Jesus can sanctify us and and make us righteous through *his* holiness if we put our trust in him and accept his free gift of grace.

    Jesus is *the* way, truth, and life. To deny Christ's sacrifice and gift is to deny Christ.
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    What do you think is the meaning of baptizing?

    I have understood it mean person becomes a disciple of Jesus, by baptizing.

    Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
    Mat. 28:19-20

    If you have been already baptized to disciple of Jesus, I don’t see why you would need a new one.

    And if you really want to be a disciple of Jesus, then this is the important thing:

    Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
    John 8:31-32
     
  7. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The Israelites were faulted for not being loyal, not for being non compliant to Torah. When James taught works were required to confirm loyalty, he wasn't talking about a neo Torah. Abraham wasn't trying to be compliant to any proto Torah when he was matching his lip service with loyal action.

    So when we confess we have repented, turned away from serving mammon, living for self, to serving Jesus, living for others, remembering how Jesus showed He could live by obeying every word that came out of God's mouth rather than by bread alone, we have to match it with action when He calls for us to do the same.

    Torah was added only to Israel's covenant, because of sin. Israel was chosen not because she was righteous but because she was an instrument, a vessel made by the Potter out of a single lump of clay, those who were loyal to God, of which Abraham was a prototype, a father. That is, Torah reminded Israel she wasn't special, she was still under law, like those belonging to the lump of clay who were sensitive to conscience.

    But Israel took something which was meant to humble, give life, and used it for sinning, prideful behaviour, treating Torah as a special honor, a sign that she was Abraham's seed, automatic heir to his blessings.

    Two points:

    1. You see how the same elements can be used to reach different views.

    2. Which view is more coherent, the one taking into consideration all the elements or the simplistic one?
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  8. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    When Paul saw the Ephesian believers were clueless, he realised they needed another baptism.

    That's why I think 99 percent of modern believers need another baptism. And some, after careful consideration, even need hands to be layed on them.
     
  9. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    While good works should indeed *result* from our commitment to Jesus Christ, those good works come from the Holy Spirit working within us and not from our own efforts to earn or prove anything. They are not *our* works. They are God's works. To claim these works as our own is nothing short of prideful.

    Jesus followed all of the law of the old covenant because he was a Jew, and even more importantly, he hadn't died yet. He hadn't yet been sacrificed on the cross and so the old covenant still applied. We do not need to follow in his footsteps by observing all of the ordinances and statutes of the Mosaic law like he did because when Jesus died, the purpose of that old covenant was fulfilled.
     
  10. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    God initiates good works.

    Gd praises good works.

    Does that make sense?


    John 5:44
    44How can you believe, if you accept praise from one another and don't seek the praise that comes from the only God?

    I don't praise my children for obeying my orders. They are only doing their job. I praise them for spontaneous displays of affection, signs that they love and agree with my principles.

    As for Jesus following Torah, tell that to the Pharisees! There is a play on words in "not a jot". Read carefully. He does everything the Father says, not a jot more nor less. He isn't talking about Torah here. He is talking about the Eternal Law, the law of liberty and love.
     
  11. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    Your plan of salvation through human effort is no salvation at all, and offers no hope. If we could save ourselves through our own works, then Christ's death on the cross was in vain. I shall continue trusting in Jesus's promises rather than your plan. :)
     
  12. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    I can understand believers being controlled in the Dark Ages, with questioning punIshable by the stake and torture, but what's holding you back from testing the spirits for yourself today?

    Believers were not allowed to study Scripture, and when Luther tested the spirits, checked with Scripture, Berean like, he found tradition needed reforming. The Reformers had a rallying cry, semper reformanda, always reforming.

    This is even more important when we see twisting of Scripture was reported even in the NT.

    Two points.

    1. Do you know text was added to Scripture, to support what the church fathers taught?

    Quote
    Acts 8:37 Elliot Commentary
    (37) And Philip said. . . .—The verse is a striking illustration of the tendency which showed itself at a very early period to improve the text of Scripture with a view to greater edification. It existed in the time of Irenæus, who quotes it (3:12), but is wanting in all the best MSS., including the Sinaitic, and many versions. The motive for the interpolation lies on the surface. The abruptness of the unanswered question, and the absence of the confession of faith which was required in the Church’s practice on the baptism of every convert, seemed likely to be stumbling-blocks, and the narrative was completed according to the received type of the prevailing order for baptism. Even with the insertion, the shortness of the confession points to a very early stage of liturgical development, as also does the reference to it in Irenæus.

    2. Do you know that historical documents discovered in the Dead Sea caves refute our doctrine?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  13. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    Actually, I have been testing the spirits, so to speak, and find myself wondering about your real motives in your numerous attempts at discouraging Christian faith, and find it extremely odd that you also randomly bring up Martin Luther, who strongly (and rightfully) rejected your concept of salvation through human works rather than through Christ.
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    If you build with gold and precious material, your work will survive. If by testing with fire your work perishes, it proves you built with straw and hay.

    Jeremiah 23:28-32
    28Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. 29“Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

    30“Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.

    Luther is not the Holy Spirit. He was wrong and needs to be corrected if we are not to be told by Christ that he never knew us.
     
  15. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    Ah, so even Luther is condemned now in your judgment. Interesting. :)
     
  16. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Don't let yourself be brainwashed:

    Matthew 23:1-11
    1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5“But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6“They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9“Do not callanyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11“But the greatest among you shall be your servant.12“Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
     
  17. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    If putting my trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, rather than in humanity and through human effort, is brainwashing, then I'll simply just have to remain brainwashed. I'm willing to risk being wrong. Are you?
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    1. How many "decisions for Christ" were you making as an infant? I think we all agree that it is "none".
    2. 1 Peter 3 says that it is not the sacramental powers of water or priest touching the flesh that avails in Baptism - but rather the "appeal to God for a clean conscience" and how many such "appeals" do infants make?
    3. More specifically - -Romans 10:9-11

    Rom 10
    8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

    Does it ever say that someone "else" can "Believe for you" and "confess for you"??
     
  19. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Please explain, what do you think baptism means and what it does or changes?
     
  20. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Paul said those who were baptised had God's method for salvation explained to them. Joshua and Caleb believed, the others didn't.

    The transformation is from clueless to clued in.
     
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