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Featured is my infant baptism enough?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    It happens because God has instituted this way of it being done, and He does not fail on His promises.

    If you are interested in knowing about spiritual gifts from an Orthodox point of view, I'm happy to share with you as I am able. If you are specifically asking about "speaking in tongues" no, we do not expect people to begin babbling upon baptism. HOWEVER ... tongues are a real gift of the Holy Spirit, and are of different types, serving different purposes. As I said, if you are truly interested, I am happy to share.
     
  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I think I explained my understanding in post 222.

    We are in agreement:

    That Water does not save a person, so baptism is not a requirement.

    We do not “earn” anything with baptism.

    What we need to be doing is trusting (believing) in Jesus.

    You say: “Baptism isn't all about us and what *we* can get from it”, so else is getting something from our baptism other than the witness we provide with our baptism? Does the witness also provide something for us emotionally and spiritually?

    You said: Our assurance is guaranteed… is not because of something we feel inside of us or something we do.

    I agree it is not something we do that gives us “assurance”, but

    yet our assurance is based on knowing (feeling) the indwelling Holy Spirit in us.

    The problem with just being “told” you were baptized as a baby, does not support your personal commitment, but your parent’s commitment (or someone who had you baptized as a baby). There are lots of people who were baptized as a baby, who show no spirituality, so what did it do for even a short period of time. The adult immersed in water correctly did witness to those there at least for a short time.

    You seem to be ignoring the benefits I listed to adult baptism in post 222.
     
  3. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    OP: Q: " is "my" (saved believer) (ritual water) "infant baptism" enough (to follow Jesus' commands)?

    A: No. Ritual water infant baptism does not change the human SPIRIT. It does not "save" per John 3.

    Symbolic believer's baptism is an outward voluntary act reflecting an inward spiritual change...SPIRITUAL BAPTISM.

    1 Corinthians 12:13
    For by one Spirit we were all baptized (immersed) into one body (of Christ), whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

    And it was this BELIEVERS spiritual baptism that Jesus commanded in His last words on earth:

    Note the ORDER:

    Matthew 28: 16-20 ...The Risen Jesus' last Words?..."The Great Commission"
    16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
    When they SAW Him, ( in His "spirit body" form) they WORSHIPED Him;(as God!)
    but some were doubtful (of what they were SEEING!).
    18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, (I don't require WORSHIP...I require FOLLOWING!)
    “All (spiritual) AUTHORITY has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    (a) GO therefore and
    (b) MAKE DISCIPLES (convert to believers) of ALL the NATIONS,
    (c) baptizing THEM (believing followers) in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (TRI-UNE GOD)
    (d) TEACHING them to OBSERVE all that I commanded you; (example and precepts)
    and lo, I am with you always (spiritually), even to "the end of the (CHURCH) age".” (age of GRACE)
     
  4. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    What you are missing here is that it's not the physical act of the *baptism* that makes the personal commitment to Christ. That personal commitment and any "feeling" that one might get from the Holy Spirit happens at the time of that personal commitment...not at the physical act of baptism. The "altar call". The "come to Jesus" moment. The prayers of repentance and commitment. Etc.

    Baptism is a sacramental act of obedience, either as a response from the adult who already made a personal commitment to Christ, or in the case of an infant, the parents' obedience in having their child baptized into a Christian household. When that child is older, he or she may choose to make a personal commitment to Christ and declare it during a confirmation process, but they have already been obedient concerning the physical act of baptism.

    So now by this time, the person who made a commitment to Christ before baptism and a person who made a commitment to Christ after baptism are on the same ground and are in the care of the Holy Spirit. There is no need to go through that entire process a second, third, fourth, or ninety-ninth time as if God made some sort of mistake in bestowing his grace when they committed themselves to him.

    No one has "missed out" on anything. Plenty of people get dunked into a pool of water and never feel anything different afterwards and end up feeling there is something wrong with them or that they don't have the Holy Spirit with them because they were told by people that they need to feel to different.

    Not true. If they are committed to Jesus Christ, then they are in the care of the Holy Spirit whether they feel anything or not because God promised it and God doesn't break his promises.

    I'm not saying that people can't *get* things out of adult baptism, but that *getting* things out of baptism isn't the purpose of baptism. Baptism is for *God's* glory, not our own glory.

    We can experience the physical act of baptism every day just by getting in the bathtub or the shower or even washing our hands and remembering the commitment we made. We can feel that closeness to God EVERY day!
     
  5. Wordkeeper

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    Actually, and I'm hoping you won't take this the wrong way, I feel even the baptism administered by the EOC is the wrong baptism.

    Baptism, in the record, was not given to all who ask.

    Question
    What is the criteria for baptism used by the EOC?

    Baptism initiated transformative action, all manifestations of which can be uniformly labelled as feeding.

    Question
    What transformative action is initiated by EOC baptism?

    The writers of Scripture lived in an agrarian society, so they used words like grain, sheep, field like we would use words like resource, asset, stocks. However , the most descriptive word used by them was food, bread...

    Because food gives life.

    1 Samuel 14:27
    27But Jonathan had not heard when his father put the people under oath; therefore, he put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and dipped it in the honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth, and his eyes brightened.

    Luke 24:32
    32They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  6. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I'm not offended if you disagree with me. :) I expect to find that often.

    However, and please don't be offended, it seems a bit of getting ahead of oneself to claim a baptism is wrong without understanding it fully? I never expect everyone to agree. But to me it's wiser to do the research before making up one's mind is all. But it's a minor point I would make.

    I'm not sure why you disagree with EOC baptism and then object on the grounds that it is not given to all who ask. You cannot show up with no connection to Orthodoxy and ask to be baptized and expect it to be done just because you asked. We don't do that. A person must take time learning the faith, demonstrating a sincere belief and intent to belong to the Body. It is not in someone's best interest to give baptism casually if they might not know what they are getting into, or might not be steadfast in the faith. To baptize and then have them fall away puts them in a worse spiritual condition. So we don't do it.

    Of course that may seem antithetical, given the discussion involving infant baptism. But unless the infant (exceptions would be made for older persons as well) were in danger of dying, the parents cannot simply ask and have their child baptized. It is a serious thing, and not only the parents but another person besides must stand and promise to do their best to raise the child in the faith. Of course the child must develop his own faith when he is old enough, but children raised properly seldom fail to believe. (Their temperament may affect whether they rebel or tend to selfish desires later though, but right raising helps with this as well.)

    Basically, in order to be baptized, faith MUST be demonstrated, and a connection to the community, and the intent to remain in the faith. This is true in the case of an adult being baptized, or in the case of parents and those who pledge to help them in the case of infants being baptized.
     
  7. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You say: When that child is older… make a personal commitment …they have already been obedient concerning the physical act of baptism. How is the baby obedient since it is all on the parents actions?

    You say: “Baptism is for *God's* glory, not our own glory.” I fully agree there is no “glory” in allowing someone to baptize you, since you really “did” nothing but allow it. That is the same with allowing God to shower you with unbelievable charitable gifts which you fully do not deserve, but did allow God to do for you. Like we seem to agree there are tons of benefits to the individual who allows someone to baptize him/her, which God has provided for His children. Does it bring “glory” to God if the person is not baptized or does God loss some glory? Is God not always glorious no matter what we do, like the father in the prodigal son story is glorious if the son does or doesn’t come back?

    The Glory and Love of God is seen with providing adult immersion baptism to believers, so they can experience all the benefits, but I do not see those benefits with baptizing babies, since it might give the parents a false since security for their child.
     
  8. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    is my infant baptism enough?

    To bad this wasn't a poll thread. I would vote yes and no.


    I can't remember what age I was baptized, but my parents were RC's.
    I went to a seminary in my junior year of high school '66-67 in Tuscon, Az to be a priest, but didn't make it. In '68 I joined the service after graduation and then just left the church and forgot about Jesus.
    Then in 2003, Christ found me, and while reading the bible about Jesus's baptism by John in the Jordan River, I, along with my former wife, decided to get baptized in the Gulf of Mexicon near Miss by a Pentecostal minister.
    Did I feel I had to? No. But the feeling afterwards was to raise my hands to heaven and praise the Name of Jesus and I became Pentecostal but now I don't belong to a denomination just yet.

    Unfortunately, I didn't see the heavens open up or a dove descending.....

    Mat 3:
    13
    Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

    14

    But John would have hindered Him saying "I have need to be baptized of thee and comest Thou to me?
    16
    And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and behold!
    the heavens were opened/anewcqhsan<455> unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and coming upon Him;

    He then makes a round trip.....

    Reve 19:11
    And I perceived the heaven being opened/anewgmenon <455>
    and behold! A white horse and the One sitting on it being called Faithful and True.
    And in justice He is judging and battling.



     
  9. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    People do not need to be aware of obedience in order to actually be considered obedient. Just like babies who were circumcised when they were eight days old were in obedience to the Mosaic law despite not making that choice for themselves.

    What are all of these tons of benefits that we *solely* receive through baptism?

    Again, you're saying that the purpose of baptism is for us to receive benefits. I disagree. We are baptized because Jesus wanted us to be baptized in his name. No more, no less. Different denominations might have different traditions associated with it that might determine how and when it is done, but those traditions are not universal.

    Since baptism does not determine salvation, I do not know why parents would have a false of security about their children any more or less than unbaptized children. False sense of security about what?
     
  10. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Thanks for the considered response.

    My point is that the text says that when the Israelites were baptised into Moses, they were fed and watered from the Rock. The parallel is when Paul baptised the Ephesian believers, they received teaching from the Holy Spirit.

    Not to say that these believers were saved, because many displeased God and did not enter His rest. As happened to Judas, Ananias, Sapphira and Simon Magus , all who had been baptised. Because the word fell on poor soil and the motives of the world could easily cause them to fall away.

    However, the baptism was right, and the filtering was right. I would say that 99 percent of modern baptism and filtering is wrong, because we have received the tradition but forgotten the teaching behind the tradition.

    So what is the right baptism and the right filtering?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  11. Wordkeeper

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    To answer your question about what benefits accrue to baptised children, they receive the same spiritual teachings that their parents receive, just as the Israelite babies ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink that their parents received from the Rock, and the Rock was Christ.
     
  12. iwbswiaihl

    iwbswiaihl Newbie

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    All the men from 20 and over died in the wilderness except Joshua and Caleb you know. So did their children receive the same benefits as their dads? Most of those in the NT when proclaiming the gospel started with the same word, repent, and believe the gospel and you will be saved. How does a baby do that and who can post in the affirmative that they have heard many, ok just any?
     
  13. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    My question wasn't about what benefits accrue to baptized children, but what are all the *tons* of immediate benefits that adults suddenly receive *solely* from the physical act of being dunked into a pool of water? That was the claim that preceded my question. That there are somehow a vast amount of benefits to be had by the physical act of being put into water as an adult that are literally impossible to obtain at any other time or in any other way.

    As far as your response goes concerning baptized children, I'm in agreement with you. God isn't going to withhold spiritual teachings and gifts simply because of age.
     
  14. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The point is that the call of God’s voice comes only to those over 20.

    Did ALL the Israelites, adults to babes, drink from the Rock (witness God deprive them of water and food and then provide the same, showing His ability and willingness to help them get into the Promised Land)? Yes, ALL did. Was God angry and did He punish the Israelites when they hesitated to fight the Amalekites in order to enter the Promised Land? Yes, He was. Were those under 20 punished? No, because they were not called to show loyalty, to obey God. Like those over 20. Like Abraham.

    So the baptism of the babes was special. They received the teaching of the Holy Spirit, but were not accountable till they were over 20. Also they recived teaching from their youth, so were more faithful to God than the adults. It is good to baptise infants, children of believing adults, because they bear God’s yoke from a young age, get more teaching:

    Lamentations 3:22-27
    22The LORD’S lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,

    For His compassions never fail.

    23They are new every morning;

    Great is Your faithfulness.

    24“The LORD is my portion,” says my soul,

    “Therefore I have hope in Him.”

    25The LORD is good to those who wait for Him,

    To the person who seeks Him.

    26It is good that he waits silently

    For the salvation of the LORD.

    27It is good for a man that he should bear

    The yoke in his youth.
     
  15. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Acts 17:24-28
    24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


    Hebrews 11:13-16
    13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

    17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” 19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come. 21By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaningon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.

    23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

    God demonstates His ability and willingness to provide a Rest, a City, a Promised Land to those who left their own land because they felt it was not the destiny they were created for. Moses left Pharoah's palace, Abraham left his father’s (a rich idol maker!) house, “choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward”.

    So baptism isn’t necessary, rather repentance , meta noia, change of mind, switching loyalty from Mammon/Egypt to God, is the real requirement, in order for God to begin His teaching of: how His followers could get into the Promised Land, what would happen there and why they needed to be there.

    The tons of benefits are just another way of saying heavenly treasures, which you receive not only in heaven , but now as well:

    Luke 12:13-32
    13Someone in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the familyinheritance with me.” 14But He said to him, “Man, who appointed Me a judge or arbitrator over you?” 15Then He said to them, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.” 16And He told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man was very productive. 17“And he began reasoning to himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?’ 18“Then he said, ‘This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.19‘And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry.”’ 20“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’ 21“So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”

    22And He said to His disciples, “For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. 23“For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24“Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap; they have no storeroom nor barn, and yet God feeds them; how much more valuable you are than the birds! 25“And which of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life’s span? 26“If then you cannot do even a very little thing, why do you worry about other matters? 27“Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 28“But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you? You men of little faith! 29“And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. 30“For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things. 31“But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you. 32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

    Mark 10:28-30
    28Peter began to say to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You.”29Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake, will fail to receive a hundredfold in the present age--houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, along with persecutions--and to receive eternal life in the age to come.


    So, the Kingdom of God, as well as daily needs added to it.
     
  16. iwbswiaihl

    iwbswiaihl Newbie

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    Those in Christ are the ones who are talked about in Lamentation v24. when there is no direct scripture to even mention babies being baptized and there are many that say one must repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved and receive the Holy Spirit, if one does not believe them I am sure there is nothing that I can add that will convince them. Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
     
  17. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    Note that I have responding to someone who believes that infant baptism is invalid and only adult baptism counts as baptism.

    I want to know what is magically in the water *itself* that provides benefits to these adults. For example, if they say, "happy feelings", then these same happy feelings can be experienced by people going through a confirmation ceremony. If they respond, "the adult is in the family of Christ". Well then, so is the baby. If they respond, "the assurance that they are saved." Well that has not to do with being put into water, but from repentance and making a personal commitment to Christ. Etc.

    There is nothing that the *water* itself actually does that makes it so that only adult baptism is valid. The scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with something magically in the water that makes an infant's baptism invalid as all of those things are received through an entire process of sanctification that occurs throughout a person's life, baptism being only one small part of it.

    I'm really not sure what you have been trying to convince me of since I haven't been arguing against baptism itself, but that there is some special benefit (or *TONS* of benefits as has been claimed) that only an adult receives at the very moment of having water on them (and NO other time) and *ONLY* by having water put on them that a baptized baby has somehow missed out on and will literally be doomed to *NEVER* experience at any later time in its life.

    My question has nothing whatsoever to do with the benefits of baptism in general. (And the fact that all of this focus is on *our* benefits being the reason to be baptized and not a focus on the Lord is a bit disturbing since we are doing it for Jesus and not for us in the first place.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  18. Wordkeeper

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    Sure, Ephesians 1:13-14 speaks to those who have believed, but it does not preclude the possibility that even those who have not yet believed, like infants, receive nurturing from the Holy Spirit.

    Luke 1:11-16, 39-45

    11And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. 12Zacharias was troubled when he saw the angel, and fear gripped him.13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14“You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.16“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God.
    .......
    39Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed isthe fruit of your womb! 43“And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44“For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45“And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”


    If only adults received baptism, what is the situation of those under twenty, who also passed through the cloud and the water and were buried into Moses's ministry?

    If they were not baptised then, at what stage in their life did they express their commitment to God and what was the sacrament?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  19. Wordkeeper

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    We are mostly in agreement, I realise, but let's not be over idealistic.

    When we accept the Gospel, it's not for Jesus, it's so that we do not perish.

    And any tree that does not bear fruit is cast into the bonfire.

    So, the ultimate benefit is not to perish, by being fruitful, be a blessing to the world.
     
  20. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    We accept the *gospel* so that we do not perish. We are *baptized* because Jesus requested us to be baptized and we (or our parents) are obedient to that request in getting us baptized. The gospel (i.e. John 3:16) and the act of getting baptized are two very different things and have two different purposes.

    Not perishing is a benefit to putting our trust in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Baptism cannot save us and thus has no such benefit.

    We also cannot be saved by by being fruitful or being a blessing to others. We are saved by God's grace alone, and not by any of our own efforts. Any fruitfulness from us is God (Holy Spirit) working in us and not something we can take credit for as our own work. Good fruits are a result of our faith in Christ, not a result or benefit of baptism.
     
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