Is music a 'thing of this world' or can it be proven to be 'Holy'?

[WannaWitness]

Here are a few commentaries for anyone who might be interested. Just some general food for thought regarding how music applies to us as Christians.

Should Christians Listen To Secular Music?

What Does the Bible Say About Music? What Should We Listen To?

What music should Christians listen to? - Fervr.net

When can music be considered ‘Christian music’?

And one of my favorite links (pretty long):

Musings on Church Music

I do not wish to debate, just provide some helpful reading material from what I feel to be truly neutral (albeit Bible-based) perspectives.

 

[SBC]

Is music a 'thing of this world' or can it be proven to be 'Holy'?op

Music, hymns, songs, singing in the spirit, praising the Lord are holy unto Him.

Music, songs, singing in the flesh, standing against the spirit, are not holy.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Imagican]

Not too many wars started over a song. Normally takes words.

Seldom do the 'masses' choose 'war'. Especially now days. War is usually brought on by politics. Regardless of the propaganda fed to 'the people'.

But songs CAN inspire 'patriotism, prejudice, separation' and many other emotions that can LEAD a group to have negative feelings about other groups.

But music isn't about war in particular. It's about mass influence. It goes BEYOND war. It elicits LOVE. And not necessarily for each other or God. But it encourages LOVE of 'the things of this world'. It elicits love for the SOUND itself.

So much so that make IDOLS out of those that please us with it. Like Pied Pipers calling US to join THEM. To worship THEM. And regardless of those that would deny it, we DO. Musicians are some of the most INFLUENTIAL people on the planet. MONEY is power. Fame is POWER.

These people have been able to set TRENDS throughout the ENTIRE world. Have people dressing like them, DOING what they do. Heck, they can even sell us POSTERS of their 'images' to the extent they can become wealthy JUST from the sales of their image. If that is not worship then maybe I'm just confused about what 'worship' really is.

But I don't think so. I think I have a pretty good grasp on the concept. We worship that which we 'adore'. And what worship IS is the devotion of our TIME and LOVE to 'something'. Anything. The sacrifice of a part of our lives for 'someTHING'.

And just LOOK at what some are willing to sacrifice for their 'musical IDOLS'...............Stand in line for HOURS to purchase a ticket to their show. Spend hours and hours of their time 'getting to know them' through the various means of media. And won't hesitate to tell anyone willing to listen how much they LOVE their favorite musicians. People that they don't even REALLY know.

And I honestly cannot SAY with any authority that music has NEVER inspired war. Don't have all the evidence to make such a claim. Nor do I believe do you. For it is impossible to determine ALL the factors involved with every war that has ever taken place. Could music have influenced 'wars'? I won't say either way. But I will say that it's POSSIBLE.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Is music a 'thing of this world' or can it be proven to be 'Holy'?op

Music, hymns, songs, singing in the spirit, praising the Lord are holy unto Him.

Music, songs, singing in the flesh, standing against the spirit, are not holy.

God Bless,
SBC

Ok, let us say that I agree with you.

But can a 'song of praise' designed to be directed at God be re-direct and sang as praise to Satan?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Strong in Him]

But can a 'song of praise' designed to be directed at God be re-direct and sang as praise to Satan?

No.
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I've already said this. Christian hymns speak of the cross, the teachings and works of Jesus, the resurrection and Jesus' return - no way does any of that apply to Satan. You find me one Christian who has ever written a worship song to the devil.

And, like I said, would you as a Christian WANT to sing to, and worship, Satan? No? Neither would we.

 

[SBC]

Ok, let us say that I agree with you.

But can a 'song of praise' designed to be directed at God be re-direct and sang as praise to Satan?

Blessings,

MEC

Can a man choose to do what he wants? Sure.

Will God be confused whether a man is praising HIM or something else? Nah.

Does what men do, affect Who God is? No

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Imagican]

No.
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I've already said this. Christian hymns speak of the cross, the teachings and works of Jesus, the resurrection and Jesus' return - no way does any of that apply to Satan. You find me one Christian who has ever written a worship song to the devil.

And, like I said, would you as a Christian WANT to sing to, and worship, Satan? No? Neither would we.

You cannot assure me that any or ALL worship songs are not written in devotion to Satan. To use the term God or Father doesn't have any meaning in or of themselves. One can certainly refer to Satan as their God or call Satan "Christ".

The Bible warns us that in the later times there would be MANY 'false Christs'.

Do you believe that 'anti Christ' will refer to ITSELF as 'anti Christ'? Or merely 'Christ'?

We have been warned that Satan's GOAL is to be: the God of this world. The only way that this would be possible is to have 'the world' worship HIM as God.

And the Bible also informs us that if God doesn't 'intervene' and 'cut the days short', Satan would accomplish his goal.

So with these things in mind, who is the majority of the world worshiping RIGHT NOW?

Once again, Satan doesn't care WHAT you call him so long as your devotion is 'to him'. He LOVES for men to call him God. He most likely relishes even more when men call him 'Christ' or Jesus or Savior.

Now, just because your 'church' hasn't taught you these things doesn't negate the facts. That is why I offer what I offer. Because rarely will your 'churches' even mention the things that I reveal. Question: what does that really 'tell you' about your 'churches'? Why don't they WANT you to KNOW the things that I reveal? Must be SOME reason.......................?

In Matthew 7 when Christ mentions those that will come to Him 'in that day' and point out all the wonderful things that they have 'done in His name', what is His response? And WHO would these people BE? Obviously if they are USING His name, it would be 'the churches'.

Yet His response to them is: "Go away from me. I never even KNEW you".

A perfect indication that they didn't KNOW Him either. They were simply 'using' His NAME. Who USES His NAME other than 'the churches'?

I know. It's TOUGH to hear such words isn't it? For you spend your lifetime SEEKING and believing you have FOUND. And then someone like me comes along and shatters the illusion. Or their words have the POTENTIAL to shatter the illusion.

Like a man that spends his whole life serving a master only to eventually discover that his master he has devoted his life to is the 'enemy'. Has only been USING him his entire life. Not an easy thing to accept or digest.

See, you have accepted a conclusion that has no validity in FACT. You have automatically assumed that since something SEEMS 'holy' to you, that it is.

Yet I can clearly show that you have no evidence for such a conclusion.

Question: could I devote ANY song I sing to Satan? Can any song I WRITE be written in devotion to Satan? Can I call Satan God? Can I call Satan "Christ"?

You have simply taken it upon yourself to conclude that any song mentioning God or Christ is automatically devoted to God or Christ.

Yet we KNOW that Satan is 'the God of THIS WORLD'. That his ultimate GOAL is to BE the ONLY God of this world.

I get it. It is much easier to follow in 'blind faith' than to seek out faith derived through EVIDENCE. Do you truly believe that God has left it up to us to GUESS the 'truth'? Or to follow Him or His Son BLINDLY?

Yet look at just how MANY people are convinced by the 'churches' to DO this very thing. To follow BLINDLY whatever it is that they TEACH them. And look at just how EASY it is to convince people NOT to question their authority when in truth they possess none other than what YOU place in their hands.

Music. How often do we see those winning awards who are as subversive and ANTI God as a human could be, standing up in front of their 'peers' and the first words out of their mouths are: "First I want to thank GOD...............".

I heard a black woman who's stand up comedy is some of the raunchiest I've ever heard insisting that her success is due to GOD.

At first I thought she was being deceptive until I realized she wasn't. She just wasn't referring to the same entity that I call God. She was thanking the ONLY God that would bless some one for such a 'craft'. More akin to WITCHcraft than anything that could be consider 'service' to THE God.

So don't allow the enemy to deceive you into believing that HE is God.

Another question: Do you believe that an EVIL piece of music can offer any honor to God? If the INTENT of the musician is PERSONAL fame, glory, or money they are capable of creating music that brings GLORY to God? The TRUE God?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Strong in Him]

.

 

[Strong in Him]

You cannot assure me that any or ALL worship songs are not written in devotion to Satan.

If you refuse to believe that Graham Kendrick, Charles Wesley, John Wimber, John Newton, Michael Saward and hundreds of others were Christians; if you refuse to admit that words like, "in Christ alone, my hope is found", or "and can it be, that I should gain an interest in my Saviour's blood", cannot possibly refer to Satan - I can't help you.

Why should I assure you anyway- you're making the accusation; you prove it.
Try emailing Graham Kendrick and asking for proof his songs aren't dedicated to the devil - you'll either be laughed at, or have the pants sued off you.

To use the term God or Father doesn't have any meaning in or of themselves. One can certainly refer to Satan as their God or call Satan "Christ".

In isolation, possibly. Try reading the rest of the hymn; "so loved he the world that he gave us his Son. Who yielded his life in atonement for sin, and opened the life gate that all may go in."

Who gave his Son for us; God, or Satan?
Who is the gate for the sheep and the giver of eternal life; Jesus or Satan?
NB - the unforgivable sin is taken something that is from God, like salvation, and giving Satan glory and praise for it.

The Bible warns us that in the later times there would be MANY 'false Christs'.

Do you believe that 'anti Christ' will refer to ITSELF as 'anti Christ'? Or merely 'Christ'?

"Christ" means "God's anointed or chosen one". The devil cannot be Christ, and anyone who is ANTI Christ, will not use the name Christ at all - since he is anti everything Christ stands for.

We have been warned that Satan's GOAL is to be: the God of this world. The only way that this would be possible is to have 'the world' worship HIM as God.

And this has nothing at all to do with music.

So with these things in mind, who is the majority of the world worshiping RIGHT NOW?

I've said before; Scripture says that people are either OF the world, or OF God.
Someone who is of the world, walking in the darkness, of the flesh and so on, is not OF God or worshipping God.

He most likely relishes even more when men call him 'Christ' or Jesus or Savior.

Satan cannot stand the name of Jesus - when anyone casts out demons they do so in the name of Jesus, and the demons HAVE to go. Jesus defeated Satan at the cross - no way would Satan be called by the name Jesus.

Now, just because your 'church' hasn't taught you these things doesn't negate the facts.

You haven't proved they are facts, nor given any Scripture - only your opinion.

That is why I offer what I offer. Because rarely will your 'churches' even mention the things that I reveal.

Very probably because it's not true, not Scriptural and it would never occur to them.

Question: could I devote ANY song I sing to Satan? Can any song I WRITE be written in devotion to Satan? Can I call Satan God? Can I call Satan "Christ"?

Like I said, I don't know; you tell me.

Do you WANT to call Satan, "Christ", bearing in mind what I said about the unforgivable sin? If you do, that's between you and God. If you don't, then don't.

You have simply taken it upon yourself to conclude that any song mentioning God or Christ is automatically devoted to God or Christ.

No, I read all the words of hymns/songs and realise that those that praise God for his holiness, goodness, mercy, love, creation, salvation, Jesus or the Holy Spirit, CANNOT refer to Satan.
I read Scripture and know that it is God who has done these things or has these characteristics. And I trust the biographies and testimonies, that I have read, of Christian song writers - how about you?

I'm sorry I haven't answered all you points/questions. I am writing this on my Kindle fire and it's hard to write lengthy replies.

I may reply further when I have my laptop, but I may not.
Quite frankly, I can't decide whether:
a) this thread is a huge wind up,
b) you genuinely can't understand what I am saying,
c) you've already decided what you believe, you don't want our opinion, just to argue with those who disagree with you.

This thread asked a question. I've given you my answer - with Scripture. You don't want to accept it, and have even started implying that I may be involved in devil worship.
Not true, but whether or not you accept it is up to you.

 

[Imagican]

The Bible warns us that Satan IS 'the enemy' and that he IS 'the father of lies' and that he IS capable of producing 'miracles and lying wonders'. It also informs us that if God allowed the enemy to continue without intervention, Satan would fulfill his goal. And Satan's goal is to BE 'the god of this world'.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to be able to add these things together and recognize that every day we are ONE DAY CLOSER to the 'end of this world as we know it'. Regardless of just how close we are to the 'end', we are closer today than we've ever been in history.

We have lots of scripture that explain to us that those that will truly be 'saved' will be a small percentage of people. We also have scripture that explains to us that there are MANY walking around right now following 'false Christs' and worshiping 'false gods'.

And I don't need to PROVE any of this to anyone who has actually read the Bible and understands what it offers in 'truth'. Just as Christ refused to perform as some circus side show in order to prove himself to His doubters. Hence: the truth is not for everyone. Some people will believe whatever they choose regardless of the 'truth'.

Now, I have YET to state there is no 'holy music'. I have simply pointed out that the use of the name Christ or the use of the term God does not in and of itself make ANY music 'holy'. For I can assure anyone reading this that Satan has USED these names AT WILL.

Question: Were the followers of Jim Jones true followers of God or Christ? Were the followers of David Koresh true followers of God or Christ? And these are just two EXTREME examples. There are millions out there right now following kooks just like these two. Anyone here want to expound upon the 'holiness' of Beni Hindi?

What I have tried to point out that music itself can be 'a thing of this world'. And I shouldn't have to point out that the Bible warns us NOT to 'become' or even LOVE the 'things of this world'. And how amazing it is that many 'so called Christians' seem to be oblivious to what this means. They shun the lusts that don't pertain to themselves yet will defend their own to the death.

I could not count the times I've heard people say, "I LOVE this song". Whitney Houston had a NUMBER ONE hit called, "Saving all My Love for You". I doubt that there are many people out there that wouldn't agree that it was a very beautiful song.

Yet if you have ever actually listened to the 'lyrics', she is singing about an affair with a married man. Adultery.

Now, if someone were to objectively make a decision whether that's a 'good' thing or a 'bad' thing, I believe MOST would agree that singing a song about an adulterous affair is not a 'good' thing. And if that song has the power to influence those that listen to it, it is ENCOURAGING adultery.

I know, since you've never even THOUGHT about it, what I offer is silly and inconsequential, right? WRONG. You are what you are by what you DO. And singing along to a song encouraging adultery basically is an ENDORSEMENT FOR adultery. And it makes no difference if you singing out loud or inside your head.

This is an OBVIOUS example. Many songs are much more subtle. And you know, Whitney began her singing career singing GOSPEL songs in the choir at her church.

Satan is the 'father of lies'. No matter how GOOD we may believe we are at deceiving ourselves or others, Satan is the 'master'. His abilities are 'light years' beyond ours. And Satan IS 'the god of this world' whether you recognize it or not. This world was given to him by God. Anytime you question that, just open your eyes and LOOK AROUND. This world is SHROUDED in 'darkness'. Most of it's inhabitants incapable of even understanding what the 'light' IS. That doesn't stop them from BELIEVING that they do.

I am in no position to judge individual 'salvation'. But I AM in a position to read the Bible and be convicted by The Holy Spirit. I'm not pointing my finger at PEOPLE. I have simply attempted to expound upon the 'fact' that using God's name or the name of His Son does not mean someone is actually referring to the TRUE God or His Son. Satan can masquerade as either or 'both'.

Often I am accused of offering 'false understanding' simply because I don't add scripture to what I say. Well, here I believe, is a time when it may well be NEEDED.

Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

(Can't music BE a 'false prophet'? Coming to you in 'sheep's clothing' but inwardly being a 'ravenous wolf'? Couldn't a musician themselves be considered to a 'false prophet?)

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

How many actually BELIEVE these words and LIVE by them? How many insist that ALL one NEEDS to DO is 'say' they are believers?

Yet these words clearly STATE that this means NOTHING. It's not what you SAY that means anything compared to what you DO. And MANY actually BELIEVE they are following Christ that DON'T even KNOW Him. For if He doesn't KNOW you, you don't KNOW Him. But that doesn't mean that you can't be using His name even though you don't even KNOW Him. The words quoted above clearly STATE this.

One of the original commandments God gave to His 'people' was to make NO 'graven images'. There was a 'reason' for this commandment. It was offered for OUR benefit. To keep us from becoming our OWN gods. For once one begins to travel down that path, it is almost impossible to ever even SEE any 'other path'. For we become capable of creating our OWN laws and rules while BELIEVING that we can be 'true followers' at the same time.

Read the words quoted. Read them a thousand times if that is what it takes to UNDERSTAND them. If understanding how they pertain to being a TRUE follower matters.

But if you walk away with nothing else offered in these words, recognize and accept that it is not what 'you say', but what you DO that determines whether you are TRULY following or just trying to fool yourself and others.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Strong in Him]

The Bible warns us that Satan IS 'the enemy' and that he IS 'the father of lies' and that he IS capable of producing 'miracles and lying wonders'. It also informs us that if God allowed the enemy to continue without intervention, Satan would fulfill his goal. And Satan's goal is to BE 'the god of this world'.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to be able to add these things together and recognize that every day we are ONE DAY CLOSER to the 'end of this world as we know it'. Regardless of just how close we are to the 'end', we are closer today than we've ever been in history.

We have lots of scripture that explain to us that those that will truly be 'saved' will be a small percentage of people. We also have scripture that explains to us that there are MANY walking around right now following 'false Christs' and worshiping 'false gods'.

And I don't need to PROVE any of this to anyone who has actually read the Bible and understands what it offers in 'truth'. Just as Christ refused to perform as some circus side show in order to prove himself to His doubters. Hence: the truth is not for everyone. Some people will believe whatever they choose regardless of the 'truth'.

Yes, this is true.
But nothing to do with music.

Now, I have YET to state there is no 'holy music'. I have simply pointed out that the use of the name Christ or the use of the term God does not in and of itself make ANY music 'holy'.

You don't seem to want to believe that music can be holy. It is the child of God, who has the Holy Spirit in them and who is using the gift that the Holy Spirit has given them, who composes "holy" music - something which is even more true when they set words of Scripture, or doctrines of the Christian faith, to music.
You don't seem to want to believe that either - unless we can provide proof, to satisfy you, that they are/were Christians.

What I have tried to point out that music itself can be 'a thing of this world'.

And I've tried to point out that it can be, or sometimes is, a thing of God and from God; but you don't want to hear it.

And I shouldn't have to point out that the Bible warns us NOT to 'become' or even LOVE the 'things of this world'. And how amazing it is that many 'so called Christians' seem to be oblivious to what this means.

I'm not sure you know what it means.
Are clothes of this world, or from God? What about food, houses, hobbies, computers, jobs/careers, money etc etc? Does this mean we can't eat, wear clothes, live in a house, go on the internet, have a job, earn money etc etc? What about people who overeat and become obese and sick - should we all refrain from food because they overindulge, (even if they can't help it?) What about people who use the internet for inappropriate content - should we never google anything, look up Christian commentaries etc or use this forum because a few use the internet for their own sick pleasures?
Of course not - we can have these things, but we are not to LOVE and WORSHIP them more than we love God.

I know, since you've never even THOUGHT about it, what I offer is silly and inconsequential, right?

What you offer doesn't make sense.
I tell you that there are Christian songwriters out there and some great songs; you reply by asking for proof that they are Christians and asking if you could write a song to Satan. I don't know, COULD you; you won't tell us.

Incidentally, people don't need to listen to Whitney Houston to be tempted to commit adultery. Most don't - they listen to their feelings/hormones, and the teaching which says "I can do what I like."

You are what you are by what you DO. /QUOTE]

I listen to Christian music and sing along to hymns' what about you?

I am in no position to judge individual 'salvation'. But I AM in a position to read the Bible and be convicted by The Holy Spirit. I'm not pointing my finger at PEOPLE.

You are; you've been saying, "give me proof that they're Christian/born again, and not writing songs to Satan."

I have simply attempted to expound upon the 'fact' that using God's name or the name of His Son does not mean someone is actually referring to the TRUE God or His Son.

Someone who simply says "oh my God", or "Jesus Christ" may be addressing anyone and blaspheming rather than praying.
A Christian who writes "O Lord my God, when I in awesome wonder consider all the works thy hand has made", or another Christian hymn that speaks of Christ, is most likely to be worshipping God and Jesus.
Either you don't understand that, or you don't believe it.

Often I am accused of offering 'false understanding' simply because I don't add scripture to what I say. Well, here I believe, is a time when it may well be NEEDED.

Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

(Can't music BE a 'false prophet'? Coming to you in 'sheep's clothing' but inwardly being a 'ravenous wolf'? Couldn't a musician themselves be considered to a 'false prophet?)

The simple answer is that if someone has been born again, confesses Jesus as Lord, has received eternal life and gifts from the Holy Spirit, then, if they compose/make music, that music will be an act of worship to God, and not an idol to take the place of God. Unless they become so famous and rich that they fall away from God and worship music, money or their own talent instead. If they were to do that, that would be their fault for breaking the 1st commandment and failing to seek FIRST the kingdom of God. It would be the Christian's responsibility - it would not be the fault of the music.
If a musician is not a Christian and doesn't care about God, they will write songs, that reflect, or teach, their own beliefs. They may write loud, discordant music; they might worship their music and put IT, or the riches they get from it, first - since they don't believe in God and have nothing else. They may believe that this life is all there is, and they have the right to do as they please.
Their songs and attitude would be as a result of their beliefs; music would not be to blame for it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I question whether men can 'create' that which is 'Holy' without the direct instruction of God.

Perhaps a good question, and answered clearly in God's Word (makes sense, right, God Knows).

Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and profits nothing.

The natural man cannot comprehend anything spiritual.

No one can see the Kingdom of heaven unless they have a pure heart.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Were the followers of David Koresh true followers of God or Christ? And these are just two EXTREME examples.

Followers of a man,
any man (flesh)
are carnal at best.

Note though the massive cover up/ fake news....

Who had care of children (about a dozen perhaps)
,
healthy (physically) children,

who years before had been given a death sentence ?
(doctors told them / their parents/ there was no chance for them to live long, or to recover ) ...

hint: regardless if he was against God or for God,
his name is mentioned in this post,
and he had in his care physically healthy children...

the only "death sentence" was by those in power
who demanded they be incinerated to destroy the evidence of their lives, their recovery, and how they recovered....

 

[Imagican]

You know, Satan is a 'slickster'. Movies, cartoons, media of all sorts depict Satan as this 'evil looking red entity with a pointed tail carrying a pitchfork'.

Yet the Bible describes Satan as an utterly 'beautiful angel'.

And that is what I believe to be the truth.

Satan uses the 'idea' of his 'evil images' to disarm us. So that when he approaches us in his true form, we are often unable to recognize him.

He most often comes to us in the guise of GOD or CHRIST.

And I see the most potentially damaging MUSIC to come to us i the same guise. While the flesh perceives it as beautiful and harmless, it is THAT music that has the most potential to HARM us by leading us down a path to darkness rather than light.

We often hear music that is demonic in it's very nature and when we hear it we shudder and do what we are able to avoid it. Most of us. Yes, that music is dangerous. But it's influence is LIMITED to the 'extremists'.

It's the music that appeals to the MASSES that is most dangerous simply due to the NUMBERS it has the potential to influence.

Satan, having much more KNOWLEDGE than ourselves, can't be an 'idiot'. Compared to us he would be like the ULTIMATE genius. Knowing exactly what to DO to influence those unable to resist or unable to recognize him. And he would use SUGAR more than salt in order to accomplish his goal. He would use whatever APPEALS to the flesh in order to convince us HE IS GOD.

My point is that it is my opinion that Satan is perfectly capable of doing what APPEARS to be 'good' in order to lure us into worshiping HIM instead of God. Worshiping him AS God.

Who in their right mind would worship Satan as God intentionally? Very few.

But the masses are more than willing to worship 'a god' that blesses them with what pleases the 'flesh'. For without the ability to recognize Satan, all he needs to do is ACT like God to lure the masses into worshiping him.

The problem lies in the 'recognition'. Many people BELIEVE that Satan IS God. And they are sincere in their beliefs. They are simply unable to recognize the TRUTH. For they are unable to recognize that which they choose to worship AS Satan. They BELIEVE he is God.

And he offers what they desire to PROVE himself to be God. Blessings, pleasure, fame, fortune, wealth, power. And Satan often uses people that APPEAR to be 'good' to influence others to follow the same path THEY are on.

Pastors, fellow congregants, charities, heck, the more 'righteous' people SEEM, the more likely they are being USED. For it's not DOING for people that is righteous, it's WHY someone DOES it that makes the difference.

And, if the truth is: we are very close to 'the end', it would appear that Satan's campaign and methods have been VERY effective. For that means he has FOOLED the majority of this world into believing HE IS GOD.

I know. Your 'churches' aren't teaching you this. But if what I'm offering IS the 'truth', the question is: Why AREN'T your 'churches' teaching it to you?????

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Strong in Him]

I know. Your 'churches' aren't teaching you this. But if what I'm offering IS the 'truth', the question is: Why AREN'T your 'churches' teaching it to you?????

Because it's not the truth.

You seem to believe, and seem to want us to say, that music is not only a thing of the world, but from Satan himself. But it isn't.
And the fact that a) you've offered nothing to prove it - except the argument "Music is a thing of the world, because some non Christians sing about non Christian things", and we are told not to love the world. B) you have offered no Scripture to prove it, and c) as you say, none of the churches are teaching it - all this tells me that it isn't.

You haven't answered my statement that God made everything, and therefore that includes music.
If I remember correctly,you answered the statement about there being music in heaven with a demand to know who wrote it and who taught the angels to play their instruments.
You don't want to concede that Charles Wesley, Graham Kendrick and other hymn writers were/are Christians, because it hasn't been proved to you.
You seem to think that because Satanists may call Satan "god", then Christian hymns that are addressed to the God and creator of the universe, are in fact, secretly, addressing Satan. Despite the fact that they have Christian words, refer to Scripture and preach the Gospel.

So there's nothing else to say - carry on believing that music is satanic and devilishly evil, if you want to. But you asked this as a question, and I have given my answer - as have others.

As for the churches not teaching what you say - ask them. E mail a few clergy saying that music is of the devil and that Christian hymn-writers may have been secret Satanists, and see where it gets you. If you're lucky, you may just get a sermon correcting your bad theology. If you're unlucky, you may get a referral to a doctor.

 

[Imagican]

Ok, God did NOT 'make everything' in the manner you have chosen to believe.

God made everything 'good'. He did not 'make heroine' or 'movies' or 'Evil' as some propose. He didn't make 'darkness'.

Hope that answers your question.

Satanists? Any and everyone that worships Satan AS God calls Satan God. That's where most err. For most believe that if they use the name 'God' they are referring to the Father of Christ. That is simply not so.

Satan LOVES for one to call him God. That IS his goal: to BE 'The God of this world'. The bible makes this perfectly clear. One day he will 'literally' set himself up 'in the temple' proclaiming himself to BE God. And the 'churches' will support him. The 'false prophet will 'make way' for the Anti-Christ proclaiming Himself to 'be God in the flesh'. And the world will follow his revelation.

But what many don't realize is that Satan is ALREADY 'the God of this world'. Has been. Since the 'beginning'. From the moment Satan was 'cast down' to this earth, he has had dominion over it. It belongs to Satan.

Question: Why do you suppose that this world, as we KNOW it, will one day be utterly destroyed? Why do you suppose that God will create a NEW world for His children? Because it has been utterly corrupted by Satan. It has been stained beyond repair.

Yes, the Bible also instructs us that one day 'the earth' will be MELTED by such extreme HEAT that it will be converted BACK to it's original elements. Vaporized.

And then God will create a NEW world completely different than this one. One with NO oceans or rivers or lakes. Where Christ is the LIVING water. Read it for yourself.

If you don't know where to find it in the Bible, just ask and I will direct you.

But you can start here:

2 Peter 3:

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Not my words, straight out of the Bible. The 'reason'? This world has been overcome with DARKNESS. The very ground has been tainted with unrighteousness. It has been polluted by EVIL to the extent it may take longer for it to cleanse itself than it has already been in existence.

So God will 'start over' with a NEW earth. A completely NEW creation. For this world will no longer exist. Literally, PERIOD. It will be utterly destroyed as if it had never existed to begin with. The heavens will no longer possess 'this planet'. Completely returned to it's basic elements. Vaporized.

I know. You don't believe this either, right?

See, where you err is in not really listening to me. I didn't accuse anyone of being 'secret' anything. I have simply pointed out that many, perhaps MOST, that profess to being followers of God and His Son have been duped into believing Satan IS God. They don't 'secretly' worship the Devil. They BELIEVE that the Devil IS GOD. When they use the name God or Christ, they honestly BELIEVE they are referring to the TRUE God. But instead have been duped into a 'false belief'. Nothing SECRET about that except that most are unaware.

And so far as 'asking' the churches to verify what I have offered? You're joking right? That would be like asking the government if they perform 'secret' experiments or to verify their work on biological weapons. Or better yet, asking the Devil to verify my words. What response would you expect them to offer?

I have not ONCE stated that all hymns are Satanic in nature. You are tying to mislabel my words.

All I have responded to is to ask YOU to PROVE that they aren't. It is perfectly clear that anyone could write a song that APPEARS to be offering God and His Son 'the glory' but in TRUTH was dedicated to Satan AS God. Any song ever written could have been dedicated to Satan. And unless you can PROVE otherwise, my statement is utterly valid. I did NOT say every song ever written WAS directed towards Satan, I simply stated that so far as PROOF is concerned, they could have been. It depends on the entity that they are TRULY directed towards. If you have been duped into believing that Satan IS God, then any song you sing devoted to 'your god' is directed TO Satan. Pretty clear. Don't know how I could state it any clearer so that you can understand what I'm saying. But it seems that you don't WANT to understand, just interpret according to what you want to hear rather than what is actually being offered.

Look. It's simple. If you do not recognize 'the enemy', then you are completely unable to defend yourself against an enemy UNRECOGNIZED. You cannot defend yourself against something you don't realize exists. Impossible. Unless you want to believe in LUCK or RANDOM chance.

Just do a 'self evaluation'. Are you truly LIVING for God through Christ? Honestly? Have you avoided 'loving the things of this world'? Do you place God FIRST? Above EVERYTHING else in your life? Do you sacrifice your wealth for the sake of others: strangers, your enemies? Do you LOVE everyone AS yourself?

If you can answer YES to any one of these, there is a really good chance you are simply fooling yourself. For if you can, you are the only person I have ever met that can do so HONESTLY.

And if we CAN'T answer these questions positively, what has GOTTEN IN THE WAY? Why can't we? The moment we become capable of answering the questions honestly is the moment we can begin to answer THE question: What has gotten in the way?

The answer is a really really simple one. Satan has replaced God in 'this world'.

But I guess it's much easier to ignore the truth. Who wants to believe that they are hopeless SINNERS? Easier to pretend that things are DIFFERENT.

Read the Bible, first page to the last, read ALL that it offers concerning the unrepentant SINNERS and see who much of it applies to YOURSELF.

It's not what you SAY that you believe that matters, it's what YOU DO that determines where your heart TRULY lies. It's not what you SAY you believe but what you DO that determines the TRUTH.

And before you go running to the mods complaining about Mike being the 'mean guy' making all sorts of false accusations, let me assure you, what I am offering is SELF evaluation more so than false accusations against others. I speak from PERSONAL observation and understanding and am simply comparing it to others. I include MYSELF in all that I offer. You know, as in WE. And the biggest single difference between myself and most others? I am willing to admit that I am CHIEF among sinners. I KNOW where my life 'fits in' to the equation. Don't even TRY to fool myself. And I can assure you and everyone else: brainwashing yourself into false beliefs isn't going to accomplish anything other than self delusion.

And I am not here to dispel the Bible, but to DEFEND it. I am not here to shatter anyone's TRUE faith, but to expose 'false faith'. I encourage ALL to 'get right' with the TRUTH. Otherwise, at least be honest with yourselves and face the TRUTH.

Only ONE question truly needs an answer to determine if what I offer is THE TRUTH: a determination: who are God's VERY ELECT? Once that single question is answered in TRUTH then and only then can what I offer truly be determined to be either TRUTH of 'something else'.

So if you can answer that question, you will KNOW whether what I offer is truth or not.

But if you cannot answer that ONE question in TRUTH, then you may as well be 'guessing your way' through your entire life so far as 'faith' is concerned.

I can answer that question and that is how I KNOW what I offer is truth. Regardless of how I live my life, at least I am AWARE of the TRUTH.

Music? Why do you think it is SO important throughout the ENTIRE world? Very very very little is even indicated to be 'righteous' or 'religious'. Yet it is ALL 'spiritual' in it's very nature. Most is offered as 'entertainment'. Yet ALL of it has the power to alter one's very SPIRIT.

And you are going to propose that ALL of it was 'made by God'? Maybe, it all depends upon WHAT or WHO you consider God to BE. The God that I accept as Our Heavenly Father did not create that which is contrary to His very WILL. As it is impossible for God to LIE, so too is it impossible for Him to TEMPT men to EVIL. So He is NOT the 'creator' of lies or lying. Nor is He the creator of temptation. The Bible clearly instructs us as to WHO created 'these things'.

Once again, God DID NOT 'make everything'. We are shown clearly 'the things' that God made. God DID NOT MAKE Satan rebel against Him. God did NOT make inappropriate contentography. He did not make men become slaves to Satan. And since He IS 'light', He didn't not MAKE 'darkness'. He is a BEACON in the darkness that is as eternal as Himself. And there will ALWAYS be darkness even when His children are no longer exposed to it. Outside of that exposure it will ALWAYS exist. Being separated FROM it does not mean it no longer exists outside of that separation.

I have made my point over and over in this thread. Is music a 'thing of God' or a 'thing of this world'? Simple question with a simple answer.

The Bible speaks of music existing in heaven. The problem is that we are given no instruction of WHAT that music IS. So how are we going to determine the difference between THAT music and all the rest?

You say it is merely a matter of BELIEF. I say that men are capable of believing ANYTHING regardless of the TRUTH. God KNOWS what's in our hearts. And by KNOWING this, He knows exactly who we SING to. It doesn't matter what we fool ourselves into BELIEVING. Well, only so far as how MUCH we desire to fool ourselves. There is a vast difference between ignorance and innocence.

Your insistence that you KNOW something that impossible to KNOW says much about the validity of what you offer. But I get it. Honestly I do. You don't want what you have come to believe to be shaken. Understandable. No one does. But to refuse to consider the possibility simply puts you in a position to BE fooled. And how foolish would it be to find out in the end you were completely misled simply for wanting to 'hold on' to 'false beliefs'?

I have offered what I am able. What you do with it is up to you. And I have offered what I have offered FREELY. Didn't ask for a single PENNY. And as is so often the case, those of 'this world' don't value anything that doesn't COST something. For from their perspective, if it doesn't cost anything, it has NO value. Understanding of this principle is crucial in our ability to determine THE truth. What did Christ or the apostles CHARGE for what they offered? What has God 'charged us' for what He has given us? What have your 'churches' CHARGED for what they have offered you? And WHAT have they actually offered? Think about it......................

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Strong in Him]

Ok, God did NOT 'make everything' in the manner you have chosen to believe.

John 1:1-2 says that there is NOTHING in the whole universe that was not created through Jesus.
Colossians 1:16 says that ALL things were created in him.

I choose to believe Scripture.

God made everything 'good'. He did not 'make heroine' or 'movies' or 'Evil' as some propose. He didn't make 'darkness'.

God created people, in his image. We have the ability to create because he gave it to us.
People use their ability to create for good, or for evil.

Darkness existed long before there was light, Genesis 1:1.

Satan LOVES for one to call him God. That IS his goal: to BE 'The God of this world'. The bible makes this perfectly clear. One day he will 'literally' set himself up 'in the temple' proclaiming himself to BE God. And the 'churches' will support him. The 'false prophet will 'make way' for the Anti-Christ proclaiming Himself to 'be God in the flesh'. And the world will follow his revelation.

Yes, I'm sure that is so. Jesus called Satan the prince of this world - but Christians believe that God is KING.
Satan is a prince who will NEVER come to the throne. He is not greater than God. John 14:30 says,
"I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, "

Satan LOVES for one to call him God. That IS his goal: to BE 'The God of this world'. The bible makes this perfectly clear. One day he will 'literally' set himself up 'in the temple' proclaiming himself to BE God. And the 'churches' will support him. The 'false prophet will 'make way' for the Anti-Christ proclaiming Himself to 'be God in the flesh'. And the world will follow his revelation.

But what many don't realize is that Satan is ALREADY 'the God of this world'. Has been. Since the 'beginning'. From the moment Satan was 'cast down' to this earth, he has had dominion over it. It belongs to Satan.

Question: Why do you suppose that this world, as we KNOW it, will one day be utterly destroyed? Why do you suppose that God will create a NEW world for His children? Because it has been utterly corrupted by Satan. It has been stained beyond repair.

Yes, the Bible also instructs us that one day 'the earth' will be MELTED by such extreme HEAT that it will be converted BACK to it's original elements. Vaporized.

And then God will create a NEW world completely different than this one. One with NO oceans or rivers or lakes. Where Christ is the LIVING water. Read it for yourself.

None of which has anything to do with music.

I know. You don't believe this either, right?

Don't make judgements about my beliefs.

I posted in this thread to give an answer to your question about music. You seem to be using that as an excuse to post about Satan and end times. If I'd wanted to talk about my beliefs on that subject, I'd have gone on to the Eschatology forum.

See, where you err is in not really listening to me.

You can't talk; you haven't answered my questions and don't always reply to my statements.

And so far as 'asking' the churches to verify what I have offered? You're joking right?

No.
You said, "If what I offer is the truth, why aren't churches teaching it?" I simply replied "ask them."
I believe they would say what I am saying, which is they don't teach it because it is not the truth.

I have not ONCE stated that all hymns are Satanic in nature. You are tying to mislabel my words.

All I have responded to is to ask YOU to PROVE that they aren't.

It's not up to me to prove anything.
I have said, for example, that Charles Wesley was a Christian, and that his hymns - for example "And Can it Be?", which I quoted, is addressed to God and his Son Jesus.
If you can't see, by reading it, that Satan never had a son who died on the cross, and if you still believe that Mr Wesley was somehow referring to Satan when he wrote it - I can't help you. You can't prove your belief,and have no grounds for it, but so be it.

I did NOT say every song ever written WAS directed towards Satan, I simply stated that so far as PROOF is concerned, they could have been.

No they couldn't.
The proof is in the words. Like I said, "did Satan send a son to die for our sins?" No. Therefore the hymn is not addressed to him.

Read the Bible, first page to the last, read ALL that it offers concerning the unrepentant SINNERS and see who much of it applies to YOURSELF.

Thank you for the spiritual advice. I am doing this anyway, thanks.

And I am not here to dispel the Bible, but to DEFEND it. I am not here to shatter anyone's TRUE faith, but to expose 'false faith'.

Good; well my true faith is that God created everything in the universe, through Jesus - just as the Bible says that he did.

I have made my point over and over in this thread. Is music a 'thing of God' or a 'thing of this world'? Simple question with a simple answer.

And I have answered it over and over.
It is not a thing of this world; I believe it was created by God.
BUT it can be used, by some, to create non Christian songs and/or to promote themselves and their own beliefs.
My answer - my opinion.

You don't agree with that - that's your right; but you seem to be just arguing until I come round to accepting your view.
Well I don't.
If you believe that music is a thing of this world, and of the devil; that is your opinion.

End of discussion.