Is music a 'thing of this world' or can it be proven to be 'Holy'?

[Imagican]

No. I've told you that, twice.
Music is music - a series of sounds, or notes. Certain chords, or clashing notes, played repeatedly, loudly etc may irritate, disturb or affect people, but they have no moral values and cannot be evil - any more than birds singing can be evil.

Songs, written by non Christians, with non Christian, blasphemous or harmful words, are a different matter. But your question was not about songs, but music.

You offer something that is utterly contradictory to everything offered in the Bible. There is NOTHING with NO purpose according to either God's will or Satan's.

I doubt there are many that would even consider what you have offered. For MOST recognize the POWER of music. Music has often been the catalyst for WORLD 'changes'.

in ancient Greece, the leaders made it ILLEGAL to alter the 'style or form' of music that they favored, KNOWING the power of music to alter the perception of the masses.

Music, in America, has influenced the direction of the country itself.

So you trying to offer that it is JUST 'noise' or 'vibrations' and nothing more? Ludicrous. It is one of the most POWERFUL forces known to mankind. It can elicit just about every emotion we possess.

People kill themselves from the influence of it. They fight each other over it. They are often more moved by MUSIC in the 'churches' than anything the pastor could offer concerning God or His Word.

People LOVE it. So how is something you propose to be so benign able to stir mankind in such a manner?

We IDOLIZE those that move us the MOST. Throw money at them. Heck, I have witnessed some tearing their clothes off and throwing them at their IDOLS. Witnessed women that loved Elvis more than their own families.

And it was ALL about the MUSIC. What the music did for them,,,,,,,or TO them.

Kingdoms have 'knighted' those that were once considered to be utterly controversial simply because of their FAME.

No, music is not just a physical phenomenon of 'sound' or 'vibrations'. It is about as SPIRITUAL as anyTHING can be.

Oh, and birds can't make 'evil' sounds. They were not created with the capacity. They don't MAKE UP what they sing. They have their own 'built in songs' or simply mimic the songs or sounds of other birds.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Lets not get off topic please:

I covered that:

They were holding harps from God, 3
and they sang the song of
God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb:

The actual song is as follows:
“Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the nations! 4Who will not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous acts have been revealed.”

Now, how does the 'music' go to that one?????

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Well done. Turn about is fair play.
Referencing your signature, the highly organised complexities of music are distinguished from chaos by qualities like harmony, composition, resolution, etc. - which suggest a subtext of intention.

I won't argue that and appreciate the actual understanding of that which we speak. But surely YOU recognize that often what we BELIEVE to be righteous for lack of TRUE understanding is often revealed later to be just the opposite. How often did the 'church' do things that they later recognized as totally contrary to the message of Christ? What they BELIEVED to be 'righteous' due to ignorance they later recognized through 'wisdom' to be utterly contrary to the very nature of their purpose.

"Chaos" and "higher order of complexity" may simply be two ways of looking at the same thing, no?
I'm just spitballin' here, not consciously trying to lead this somewhere.
Besides, if proving God is the objective, it's ok if doing so proves the existence of the devil anyway, right?

I understand where you are coming from. But let's dig a bit DEEPER. What IF 'the god' one believes to be THE God isn't REALLY that God at all. Just pretending to be that God. What if HE inspired what APPEARED to be 'Holy Music'.

Who among us has the capacity to make such a determination.

God has revealed Himself TO ME personally. But I do not possess the capacity to KNOW 'all things' pertaining to God.

But I DO KNOW this: we are warned about enjoining the world in it's deception. Not to LOVE 'the things of this world'.

I have WATCHED music cause fights, destroy relationships, encourage sins of just about every sort: drug use, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, greed, coveting, lying, cheating, stealing. If we accept the testimony of many murderers and rapists, these crimes or sins as well. in fact, I can't think of a single sin that hasn't been encouraged by music to one extent or another.

So, is OUR music TODAY just 'another thing of this world'? Or is there some way we can rest assured in the 'belief' that it is Holy?

I say that subtle music is more spiritually dangerous than that which is outright devoted to Satan.

Whitney Huston has a NUMBER one hit with a song entitled, "Saving All My Love for You". What many didn't even pay attention to were the lyrics. She was singing about saving all her love for a MARRIED man she was committing adultery with.

I would offer that such music is not only able but often DOES affect the subconscious even when our conscious self has no idea of the influence. The fact that it was a NUMBER ONE HIT clearly presents the evidence of what I offer. Without watching the video, most people didn't even pay attention to ALL the lyrics. But they LOVED the 'song'.

No difference with Hotel California by the Eagles or Stairway to Heaven by Led Zepplin. My mother who HATED 'rock n roll' LOVED both. The lyrics didn't matter. It was the MUSIC that attracted her CONSCIOUSLY.

And while most of us had NO clue what the lyrics to these songs TRULY meant, they found them mysterious and SENSUAL enough to learn them and sing along with the artists.

The Piper's calling you to join him????? A Bustle in your hedge row? It's just a 'spring clean' for the May Queen??????????

Stab it with their steely knives but they just can't kill the beast????

Ever listen to Don Healy's "In the Garden of Allah"? Do you believe that song to be UNINSPIRED?

This isn't a subject I created on a 'whim'. It's something I have been contemplating, studying for YEARS. It is SO profound that I'm surprised, God KNOWING 'everything' as some insist, that there is no specific WARNING offered in the Bible.

But, like some of you have pointed out, if we HAD the capacity and exercised such ability to recognize that which is EVIL versus that which is GOOD, He wouldn't have NEEDED to mention it.

Look at just how many people DEVOTE their entire LIVES to music. And how the rest of us are lured to LOVE it. How we IDOLIZE those that create the kind of music that moves us the MOST and use that very term to describe the relationship like they are OBLIVIOUS to it's actual MEANING.

I had a guy tell me once, "I wouldn't care if God Himself told me not to play my guitar in 'church', I would anyway".

What does that MEAN exactly. I 'get it'. I KNOW what it means. It's perfectly clear.

in order to be a successful musician often requires the sacrifice of EVERYTHING else in one's life. What could compel ANY man or woman to DEVOTE themselves to someTHING in such a manner? Would God inspire such devotion yet Christ tell us that if we LOVE our families MORE than Him we are not worthy of Him? We can love a guitar or any other musical instrument MORE than God Himself and that's "OK" with God? Surely NOT.

Can YOU imagine a world WITHOUT 'music'? What effect would it have upon your life is there were NO MORE MUSIC? Think about it.

Bye, bye Miss American Pie. The Three men I admire the most, Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, they caught the last train for the coast, the day, the music died. What a song eh?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Strong in Him]

You offer something that is utterly contradictory to everything offered in the Bible. There is NOTHING with NO purpose according to either God's will or Satan's.

?? This doesn't make sense.
Where did I say that music had no purpose?

I doubt there are many that would even consider what you have offered. For MOST recognize the POWER of music.

I didn't say that music had no power.
What I said was that it has no morals. Music is a series of notes, rearranged to make tunes and cannot, in itself, be either good nor evil.

Some people have written songs and set them to music. The words of their songs may be blasphemous, rude, harmful or promote a certain philosophy/ideology. If that is the case, then the song can be "bad" and have a dangerous effect on people. I can think of occasions where pop songs have been criticised for glamorising suicide, or rebellion, for example.
I would not call these songs good, neither would I dismiss them and say they have no effect on people. I would say, though, that in the majority of cases, it is the WORDS that affect, influence and disturb people; not the actual music. Unless, as I said, it is very discordant, loud and unpleasant.

Music is music - how do you judge whether it is "secular" or "holy"?
For example, Mozart wrote a lot of music. At least one of his pieces is the tune to a hymn - "behold the servant of the Lord." What makes that hymn powerful and good? That hymn was inspired by, and taken from, Scripture and written by a clergy man who was given the gift of writing hymns by the Holy Spirit. The tune was written by someone who was a Freemason. Does this make the hymn good and holy, or evil?
The same can be said for Beethoven, Mendleson, Handle and others; some of the tunes they wrote have been used as hymns. Does that make them good, or bad? I suggest neither. I believe it is the words which influence and inspire people, and not so much the tunes.

 

[Strong in Him]

Continued - I pressed "send" by mistake.

So you trying to offer that it is JUST 'noise' or 'vibrations' and nothing more? Ludicrous. It is one of the most POWERFUL forces known to mankind. It can elicit just about every emotion we possess.

There's no doubt that music can be powerful. Written in a certain way, with certain instruments playing - and especially if it has certain associations - it can indeed be stirring and provoke emotions - even without any words at all.

What I am saying is that it is not the music - these notes or sounds - themselves which are good, holy, noble, patriotic or whatever.
The way that they have been written may cause an emotion in someone who is listening - and, for all we know, that person could then go out and commit a crime; maybe the music has made them angry, or whatever.
In that case, however, it would be the person committing the crime, pulling the trigger or whatever, who was evil, NOT the music they had just listened to. Because that same piece of music could have inspired someone else to do good.

Music can be very powerful, I didn't say otherwise.
But the bottom line is that it IS just a series of sounds. The composer cannot be blamed for the response they produce in someone; he/she would not be put on trial for inciting evil or hatred.

People kill themselves from the influence of it. They fight each other over it. They are often more moved by MUSIC in the 'churches' than anything the pastor could offer concerning God or His Word.

People LOVE it. So how is something you propose to be so benign able to stir mankind in such a manner?

Sorry but I think you misunderstand what I have been saying.

Yes, of course some people love music. Yes, of course it can be inspiring - sometimes in the wrong way.
What I am saying is that if someone hears the 1812 overture, for example, and goes out and starts a fight, that does not mean, or show, that the 1812 overture is EVIL.

It is the people who respond to, and are moved by, music and who may go out and commit crimes, that are evil.
Or people who hear music and are inspired to do great things, who are good.

We IDOLIZE those that move us the MOST. Throw money at them. Heck, I have witnessed some tearing their clothes off and throwing them at their IDOLS. Witnessed women that loved Elvis more than their own families.

Yes, some people do, and have done. I loved some of Donny Osmond's songs - many fans went even further, wrote love letters, turned up at concerts etc.
I would hazard a guess that it was Elvis/Donny Osmond/Tom Jones themselves - their appearance, voice, and the songs they sang that moved fans so much - NOT the tunes.

No, music is not just a physical phenomenon of 'sound' or 'vibrations'. It is about as SPIRITUAL as anyTHING can be.

God can speak through music certainly. It might inspire us, calm us, move us, cheer us up etc. I'm not doubting that it can produce an affect, stir our emotions etc. Which may lead us to do something very good, or something very bad.

But the music itself has no morality. It is the person/people who are responsible for their own actions - even if they were greatly moved/inspired by the music .

Oh, and birds can't make 'evil' sounds.

Exactly. The sounds they make, their songs, are neither good nor evil. That is my whole point.
Some people, and other animals, may interpret a bird's call as being harsh/unpleasant - and in some cases that might be a good thing, to warn of danger etc.
But it is the human/animal who hears the birds' song/call, interprets it as good or evil and who may go off and act accordingly, who really is good or evil - not the bird themselves for making the sound.
You have just said so yourself; they were not created to do evil/make evil sounds.
They were created with a "call" or built in song, which they sing to the glory of their Creator.

If someone hears a bird screeching and interpret it as evil, that is down to THEM, how that sound has affected them and how, or if, they choose to act on it.
The sound itself is neither wicked nor good.

 

[RDKirk]

?? This doesn't make sense.
Where did I say that music had no purpose?



I didn't say that music had no power.
What I said was that it has no morals. Music is a series of notes, rearranged to make tunes and cannot, in itself, be either good nor evil.

Maybe you should use the term "melody," because Imagican seems to be conflating all aspects into "music."

 

[Strong in Him]

Maybe you should use the term "melody," because Imagican seems to be conflating all aspects into "music."

Good idea; thanks.

 

[Imagican]

Ok, so I guess no one wants to answer the MOST important question concerning 'music': Is it Holy or merely another 'thing of this world'?

And to offer a little insight making it easier to answer this question: If it is HOLY, how is it that it appeals to the ENTIRE world?

How would Satan react to Holy music? Do you suppose that he would LIKE it? Or would music that is truly 'Holy', offend him?

So if Satan has dominion over 'this world', Christians or 'true followers' have been commanded to 'separate themselves from this world', how is it that music appeals to the WHOLE world if it is HOLY?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Strong in Him]

Ok, so I guess no one wants to answer the MOST important question concerning 'music': Is it Holy or merely another 'thing of this world'?

It can be both.
God gave us the gift of music, and musicians, and he himself rejoices over us with singing. But there are some songs/tunes I would not regard as soothing, peaceful or edifying.

As I've said before, music is just sound; it's the various notes. Musical notes, melody, tunes have no values or morals; they are neither good nor evil.
Put words to the tunes, and that may be a different matter, but not the tunes themselves.

For example, some might say that certain tune by Mozart is "bad", because Mozart was a freemason, or at least, a non Christian. but Charles Wesley put words to that tune, some of us know it as the hymn "Behold, the servant of the Lord" and love singing it.
The melody - tune - is the same for both. So is it "bad" or "good"; "of the world" or "holy"?
Charles Wesley actually liked to put words to existing tunes. People do it today. There are several hymns that can use the tune "Ode to joy", by Beethoven. Others might use "Danny boy", or Scottish or Welsh folk tunes. I'm told there are hymns to the tunes for "Chariots of fire" and "Eastenders". And would you say it was wrong, or evil, to sing "Dam busters" in church? What about Psalm 46, set to that tune?

 

[Imagican]

That there are those that cannot comprehend the spiritual significance of music comes as no surprise to me. Denial isn't anything 'new'.

And the Bible clearly states that darkness cannot even comprehend 'light'. That means that darkness doesn't even know what 'light is'.

It is perfectly clear when we actually examine the effects of music that it is INDEED 'spiritual'.

It can make us happy, sad, angry, envious, greedy, all those things that are a part of our very 'spirit or soul'.

Those that create movies or television shows or even many 'churches' have learned that music has the POWER to 'move' people by it's very SOUND.

Horror movies incorporate EVIL sounds. Religious movies, RELIGIOUS sounds. There are EPIC sounds, there are happy sounds, sad sounds, etc..............

That there may be people that are incapable of RECOGNITION doesn't alter the FACT that music DOES have such power over those that HEAR it. Heck, there are those that smell the difference between oranges and lemons. Their inability to discern the difference doesn't negate the FACT that there IS a difference. it is the INDIVIDUAL who lacks the ability to recognize the difference that if in error.

So trying to say that music is nothing other than 'sounds'. is mistaken. A sound doesn't have the ability to MOVE someone's spirit or soul. But MUSIC does. And some is so powerful that it can alter one's very perceptions of the world around them.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Neostarwcc]

Depends what kind of music. I'd say Christian and gospel music is holy and the Lord loves hearing it. And everything else like rap,country,rock,blues ...etc would be of this world.

 

[Imagican]

It can be both.
God gave us the gift of music, and musicians, and he himself rejoices over us with singing. But there are some songs/tunes I would not regard as soothing, peaceful or edifying.

As I've said before, music is just sound; it's the various notes. Musical notes, melody, tunes have no values or morals; they are neither good nor evil.
Put words to the tunes, and that may be a different matter, but not the tunes themselves.

For example, some might say that certain tune by Mozart is "bad", because Mozart was a freemason, or at least, a non Christian. but Charles Wesley put words to that tune, some of us know it as the hymn "Behold, the servant of the Lord" and love singing it.
The melody - tune - is the same for both. So is it "bad" or "good"; "of the world" or "holy"?
Charles Wesley actually liked to put words to existing tunes. People do it today. There are several hymns that can use the tune "Ode to joy", by Beethoven. Others might use "Danny boy", or Scottish or Welsh folk tunes. I'm told there are hymns to the tunes for "Chariots of fire" and "Eastenders". And would you say it was wrong, or evil, to sing "Dam busters" in church? What about Psalm 46, set to that tune?

See, you are failing to show that you even KNOW what music is. It is perfectly CLEAR that there is 'good music' and 'bad music'. Good music CANNOT be bad and bad music cannot be good.

I'm not talking about lyrics, I'm talking about 'music' itself.

You cannot set righteous lyrics to 'bad music' and have it come out 'good'.

That you are incapable of recognition doesn't alter the truth.

Answer the question: Is music a 'thing of this world'?

And show us where music is a 'gift of God'.

The first mention of musical instruments were created by the descendants of CAIN.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Strong in Him]

See, you are failing to show that you even KNOW what music is. It is perfectly CLEAR that there is 'good music' and 'bad music'.

Well define good and bad music then.

Good music CANNOT be bad and bad music cannot be good.

I don't agree with you that music can be good or bad, so I disagree.

Some music might be unpleasant; jarring, loud, discordant or whatever. That does not make it bad, just not to your taste.

You cannot set righteous lyrics to 'bad music' and have it come out 'good'.

Do you have an example of righteous lyrics being set to "bad" music? Or are you saying that all my examples are just that; a hymn that is written to the tune "Danny boy" is wrong, because "Danny boy" is "secular" and therefore evil?

Answer the question: Is music a 'thing of this world'?

No.

And show us where music is a 'gift of God'.

Everything we have, ALL our gifts are from God.

God created sound - he gave birds the ability to sing, and lions, elephants, monkeys, cats, dogs etc etc the ability to call to, and communicate with, one another.
He gave us the ability to speak and sing. God sings over us and we are made in his image; so clearly the ability to sing is God given.
David wrote Psalms, sung them and played a harp. The Jews use, and used, Psalms in worshipping God.
Have you looked at Psalm 80 recently? It has the instruction, "to the tune of 'the lilies of the covenant'." Do you know what "Lilies of the Covenant" sounded like? Was it a "good tune" used just for this Psalm, or was it the tune of a popular song?

When Solomon dedicated the temple, there were temple musicians to play and worship. We worship God using the gifts that he has given us; if your gift is music, then worship him with music.

The first mention of musical instruments were created by the descendants of CAIN.

Maybe they were - what has that got to do with God giving us the ability to sing, write and make music?

 

[Strong in Him]

That there are those that cannot comprehend the spiritual significance of music comes as no surprise to me. Denial isn't anything 'new'.

Possibly it's not the inability to understand, but your inability to explain clearly?

And the Bible clearly states that darkness cannot even comprehend 'light'. That means that darkness doesn't even know what 'light is'.

If you are saying that some of us are in darkness because we enjoy "secular" music, or because we disagree with you in this matter; I think you're wrong.

It is perfectly clear when we actually examine the effects of music that it is INDEED 'spiritual'.

So why ask the question if you know the answer?
And why ask us for our opinion and then argue if that opinion doesn't agree with your own?

It can make us happy, sad, angry, envious, greedy, all those things that are a part of our very 'spirit or soul'.

And you would define music that makes you envious as "good"?
You've just included that emotion in "spiritual music", so I guess you would.

Horror movies incorporate EVIL sounds. Religious movies, RELIGIOUS sounds.

There is no such thing as a "religious sound"!
The scale of C major is the scale of C major. It has possibly been played in many films; even "bad" films. It is also the first few bars of the hymn "joy to the world", (descending scale).
Does this make it evil of religious? Neither; it's a scale.

A sound doesn't have the ability to MOVE someone's spirit or soul.

Really?
Crying babies don't affect you?
If you heard people screaming in pain, or crying because their loved ones had died, you wouldn't feel moved?
The sounds of gun fire, thunder or war don't scare you?
Thousands of people screaming encouragement to marathon runners doesn't inspire you?
You don't thank God when you heard bird song, or the sound of rivers or the sea?

What are these, if not sounds?

 

[Imagican]

I have witnessed music in it's myriad forms.

I have watched it inspire DEATH, sexual deviation, murder, rape, theft, self pity, just about every negative emotion known to mankind.

And I have witnessed it inspire LOVE. Love of 'itself'.

Yet we are told NOT to 'love the things of this world'.

And that is 'why' no one will answer the ONE question that is most important in understanding 'music': IS music a 'thing of this world'?

And if so, look at it's POWER. It's power to influence each and every one of us that can HEAR it. Each and every one of us that LISTENS to it.

Some say it brings them 'closer' to God. That it places glory upon God. That it honors Him.

But I question the ability of 'a thing of this world' to actually DO such things.

And I question the understanding of anyone that doesn't understand the POWER of music. How can something SO important to the 'world' have no POWER over the world?

Think about John Lennon remarking, "We are bigger than Christ". The sad part is that his statement was TRUE. According to 'the world', they WERE 'bigger than Christ'. Not because of WHO they were, but because of WHAT THEY DID. Because of the 'music'.

For every perversion that exists, someone has made music to promote it. And most listen to it without the first HINT as to it's potential to harm the listener.

And trust me, I am not the first to recognize the POWER of music. ALL that make it KNOW it's power. Why do you suppose that so many will devote themselves TO making it? Many KNOW they will never receive fame or fortune yet devote themselves to it regardless. WHY?

And isn't the LOVE of 'anything' one places above God detrimental to any potential relationship with God? Yet many will sacrifice everything in their lives for the sake of music. Family, friends, God.............any and everything for the sake of 'the music'.

And look at the manner many revere the musician. Like they are 'clergy'. Hanging on their every word and deed. We call them 'IDOLS'. And isn't this exactly what they 'are'? For such devotion lavished upon them could only be considered 'worship' by anyone that understands the meaning of the word.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Strong in Him]

I have witnessed music in it's myriad forms.

I have watched it inspire DEATH, sexual deviation, murder, rape, theft, self pity, just about every negative emotion known to mankind.

And I have seen, and read of, its power to soothe, inspire, energise, and cause people to praise.
In Scripture, King Saul was tormented by an evil spirit; only David playing his harp, could soothe him. If I play my favourite CD, it can inspire, cheer me up or bring me closer to God as I sing my favourite hymns/songs.
Some people are professional music therapists - music is used to reach people with learning disabilities or dementia. I have witnessed people with severe dementia who don't talk, or socialise, start to tap their feet to music, or begin to sing a hymn, despite not having the words in front of them. A number of people with Down's Syndrome love, and respond well, to music, and someone with autism may find that the only way they can communicate with the world, is through music. I think when I was nursing that I met a couple of children like that.

Yet we are told NOT to 'love the things of this world'.

It depends how you define "of this world".
Clearly you are including music in that - are you also including poetry, theatre, creative writing, sport, hobbies, work, food, wearing clothes?
Anything can be of this world - and that's not wrong; we live in the world, Christ died for the world and we are told to preach the Gospel in the world. What we are told NOT to do is to treat the temporary things of the world as if they were permanent - loving and storing money for example - and conforming to the world; adopting its godless standards and morals.

And that is 'why' no one will answer the ONE question that is most important in understanding 'music': IS music a 'thing of this world'?

I have; you haven't acknowledged my answer.

And if so, look at it's POWER. It's power to influence each and every one of us that can HEAR it. Each and every one of us that LISTENS to it.

It has power for good too - you don't seem to want to acknowledge that.

Some say it brings them 'closer' to God. That it places glory upon God. That it honors Him.

It can do.
People have the ability to play musical instruments, and this can be used in worship. The temple musicians played to honour God. Psalm 150 lists the instruments we should, or can, use to praise the Lord.

But I question the ability of 'a thing of this world' to actually DO such things.

Well then, either that proves that music is not a thing of this world - as I said - or it means that you simply don't believe all those who testify that music honours, and brings them closer to, God.

And I question the understanding of anyone that doesn't understand the POWER of music. How can something SO important to the 'world' have no POWER over the world?

It's not that important to everyone.
Some people hate music. Some people are deaf and can't hear it - and that includes a famous percussionist, Evelyn Glennie, who is brilliant and has inspired many. Beethoven also went deaf and couldn't hear what he was composing.

Think about John Lennon remarking, "We are bigger than Christ". The sad part is that his statement was TRUE. According to 'the world', they WERE 'bigger than Christ'.

No.
The Beatles may have been more popular than Christ. In their own minds, they may have felt that they had more influence than Christ - that doesn't mean that they did.
How many people do you know who have been saved, healed, forgiven, born again, filled with the Spirit etc as a direct result of the Beatles' music?

The world, in general, does not accept Christ or the things of Christ. He told us that; "if they hated me, they will hate you." Christians challenge the things of the world and show a better way - or should do. The world says "we are entitled to get revenge when we have been hurt/betrayed"; Jesus said, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
The world says, "people are entitled to sleep around before marriage if they wish"; the Bible teaches that a sexual relationship is to be enjoyed only inside marriage.
The world says that you need this car/house/job/wine/dress/watch to BE someone, to be accepted and show that you have made it; the Bible says that God accepts us as we are, and we are special because we belong to him.
Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would convict the world in regards to sin; some people don't believe they sin, and if they do, don't want to be convicted of it.

Some people say they don't believe in Christ and don't worship anything. EVERYONE worships something - for some, this may be music; but not all.

And trust me, I am not the first to recognize the POWER of music. ALL that make it KNOW it's power.

Some of those who make it are Christians and use it, and its power, for good and to worship God. But it seems that you don't want to acknowledge that.

And isn't the LOVE of 'anything' one places above God detrimental to any potential relationship with God?

Yes. But that can apply to anything, not just music.
Even going on to a website and writing threads about God, music, and worship, can get in the way of actually worshipping and listening to God.

And look at the manner many revere the musician. Like they are 'clergy'. Hanging on their every word and deed. We call them 'IDOLS'.

Like I said, everyone worships something. For some, they would rather revere, idolise and honour pop stars and sporting heroes rather than God. It's always been like that.
If someone hasn't heard the Gospel, or they don't want to believe it, they may make other things/people the object of worship. The answer is to preach the Gospel, not condemn those who enjoy listening to music, or other things, in moderation.

 

[Imagican]

And I have seen, and read of, its power to soothe, inspire, energise, and cause people to praise.
In Scripture, King Saul was tormented by an evil spirit; only David playing his harp, could soothe him. If I play my favourite CD, it can inspire, cheer me up or bring me closer to God as I sing my favourite hymns/songs.

OK.

So is it possible that the musics effect was on the 'evil spirit' rather than Saul himself? That is wasn't Saul being soothed so much as the 'evil spirit' being appeased? Is that possible?

Some people are professional music therapists - music is used to reach people with learning disabilities or dementia. I have witnessed people with severe dementia who don't talk, or socialise, start to tap their feet to music, or begin to sing a hymn, despite not having the words in front of them. A number of people with Down's Syndrome love, and respond well, to music, and someone with autism may find that the only way they can communicate with the world, is through music. I think when I was nursing that I met a couple of children like that.

I have already expounded upon the POWER of music. What I question is: is it a 'thing of this world' or somehow 'separate' from this world?

And let me ask this: Do you believe that adults or children are more able to be influenced by 'spirits' either good or evil?

It depends how you define "of this world".
Clearly you are including music in that - are you also including poetry, theatre, creative writing, sport, hobbies, work, food, wearing clothes?

Let me clarify then: "ARTS", all of them. But for the sake of this conversation, music in particular.

Anything can be of this world - and that's not wrong; we live in the world, Christ died for the world and we are told to preach the Gospel in the world. What we are told NOT to do is to treat the temporary things of the world as if they were permanent - loving and storing money for example - and conforming to the world; adopting its godless standards and morals.

So, when the Bible warns us to separate ourselves from this world. Not to LOVE this world or the things in it, how do we determine what this means? Do you believe that it was left up to us to GUESS what it means?

One of the first commandments given to God's children was that they NOT 'create ANY graven images of things on land, in the air or in the water. That pretty much covers EVERYTHING 'physical' pertaining to 'this world'.

I wonder if that included 'musical instruments'? It's pretty clear that most are 'works of art' as well as functional noise makers. And isn't THAT amazing. Man doesn't 'just' make instruments to make sounds. They are works of 'art' as well.

Ok, now let us consider this: Just because 'this world' has learned to accept the 'way thing ARE' doesn't mean that things are the way they are SUPPOSE to be.

You know, like banks, paper money, institutions of every sort. Television, movies, internet, guns, rockets, atomic weapons, contaminated food, rampant drug addiction, etc, etc.

But these things are OBVIOUSLY 'wrong'.

What about the subtle discrepancies? The things that are NOT so 'obvious'? Like calling a building a 'house of God'. Or selling merchandise in a building called a 'house of God'.

Or.................music? Are you willing to admit that music IS capable of 'influence'? Like I've pointed out before, we call those who 'lure' us through their music: IDOLS. And it would be awful negligent for one to FAIL to recognize the 'worship' many perform for those who they 'adore'. The 'world' makes them RICH and FAMOUS and treats them basically like little 'demi-gods'.



I have; you haven't acknowledged my answer.


It has power for good too - you don't seem to want to acknowledge that.

Not true. I can't acknowledge that without KNOWING the intent of the design. And if you cannot assure me that the intent is 'good', then I cannot make such a determination.

There are MORE than 'one god' that we deal with. There is the One True God. And there is 'the god of this world'.

I cannot find the means to rest assured that even that music that some consider to be 'holy' isn't directed AT 'the god of this world'. You know, 'the god' that blesses men with riches, fame, glory, etc...............

To many of them, they BELIEVE that 'the god of this world' is THE One True God. And since they don't recognize the enemy, they have NO defense to see things otherwise.

Let me ask you this: Could I sing a song that YOU consider to be 'holy' to 'the god of this world'? Could I use YOUR songs you consider to be holy and direct them to a 'different god'? Could I sing praise and worship to Satan?


It can do.
People have the ability to play musical instruments, and this can be used in worship. The temple musicians played to honour God. Psalm 150 lists the instruments we should, or can, use to praise the Lord.

You say this, but you can't offer any actual instructions concerning HOW they are to played.

Once again, could those instruments listed be used to create music designed to offer honor and glory to Satan?


Well then, either that proves that music is not a thing of this world - as I said - or it means that you simply don't believe all those who testify that music honours, and brings them closer to, God.

Yet I have already pointed out that there is more than one God that we deal with. Can you prove that the music you insist brings glory and honor to God isn't REALLY being directed towards 'the god of this world'?

It's not that important to everyone.
Some people hate music. Some people are deaf and can't hear it - and that includes a famous percussionist, Evelyn Glennie, who is brilliant and has inspired many. Beethoven also went deaf and couldn't hear what he was composing.

That's kind of like saying that money doesn't corrupt "everyone". Yet it appears to me that 'this world' has created a 'need for greed' among ALL men. Everyone I KNOW is 'caught up in it'.

But you are right, there are certainly some who don't even know what money is. For every rule there are exceptions.

No.
The Beatles may have been more popular than Christ. In their own minds, they may have felt that they had more influence than Christ - that doesn't mean that they did.
How many people do you know who have been saved, healed, forgiven, born again, filled with the Spirit etc as a direct result of the Beatles' music?

The world, in general, does not accept Christ or the things of Christ. He told us that; "if they hated me, they will hate you." Christians challenge the things of the world and show a better way - or should do. The world says "we are entitled to get revenge when we have been hurt/betrayed"; Jesus said, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
The world says, "people are entitled to sleep around before marriage if they wish"; the Bible teaches that a sexual relationship is to be enjoyed only inside marriage.
The world says that you need this car/house/job/wine/dress/watch to BE someone, to be accepted and show that you have made it; the Bible says that God accepts us as we are, and we are special because we belong to him.

So you DO understand the difference between a true follower and those LIVING in this world.........

Now, how many of the things you listed can and have been directly influenced by MUSIC?

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would convict the world in regards to sin; some people don't believe they sin, and if they do, don't want to be convicted of it.

Some people say they don't believe in Christ and don't worship anything. EVERYONE worships something - for some, this may be music; but not all.

You are correct. But you do not of a necessity have to 'worship' the things that influence you. Sometimes, all you have to DO is expose yourself to them.



Some of those who make it are Christians and use it, and its power, for good and to worship God. But it seems that you don't want to acknowledge that.

I can't acknowledge that without some PROOF that you are correct.

Is it possible that there is 'righteous music'? Anything is possible.

My question is: Is it possible that it's been so long since men were actually making 'righteous music' that Satan has since stepped in and led ALL music to be directed TO HIMSELF?

If you cannot tell me how to discern the difference then it is YOU who are 'guessing' and me warning you that guessing can get you in a lot of trouble with God.

Eve tried that and look what it got her. And look how easily Satan deceived her with the TRUTH. Do you suppose Satan 'gave up' and is no longer looking for those whom he can devour?



Yes. But that can apply to anything, not just music.
Even going on to a website and writing threads about God, music, and worship, can get in the way of actually worshipping and listening to God.

It could and probably does. But I don't know that I have often encountered that 'problem'. For you see, that is WHY I am here.

I know what I offer is not for 'everyone'. I traveled beyond those messages about twenty five or thirty years ago. I USUALLY spend the overwhelming majority of my time here on 'my threads' for that reason. I can't control who participates or who doesn't but I can offer that much of what I speak of is beyond what the 'average Christian' has ever even contemplated. I'm sure you probably agree. It's pretty clear in most of your answers or questions.

Like this discussion we presently attend to.

I don't think you have ever really done ANY research into the subject. You are kind of 'flying by the seat of your pants' as the saying goes.

On the other hand, this is a subject I've been STUDYING for years. And we haven't even really gotten started. For I can't even convince you of the possibilities yet. So how can we discuss anything deeper?

Not trying to make fun of you in any way. Just pointing out my observation concerning your comments.

It's like addiction: if you don't admit you have a problem, you really can't deal with it.

And if you don't really understand the nature and power of music, it's terribly hard for you to discuss the nature and power of music.


Like I said, everyone worships something. For some, they would rather revere, idolise and honour pop stars and sporting heroes rather than God. It's always been like that.
If someone hasn't heard the Gospel, or they don't want to believe it, they may make other things/people the object of worship. The answer is to preach the Gospel, not condemn those who enjoy listening to music, or other things, in moderation.

Ok, but what I have opted to discuss is 'music'. And there is NOTHING else that exists 'in this world' that has the POWER of music. No other art form with equal power over the masses.

Everything else with any significant power INCLUDES music IN IT. Television, movies, the internet, heck, your doctors office, elevators, grocery stores, football games, Nascar even uses music IDOLS to promote their 'sport'.

What other 'art form' except for COLOR itself is used like 'music'? And if it is NOT as powerful as I have proposed, WHY? Why is it EVERYWHERE and involved with almost EVERYTHING pertaining to 'this world'? Heck, even the 'churches' have learned to use it to manipulate the congregation no differently than any 'other business'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[FireDragon76]

All psalms were sung, or rather, chanted, so it's almost certain that Jesus did sing at the synagogue. The apostles had hymns that are recorded in the Scriptures.

 

[RDKirk]

Ok, but what I have opted to discuss is 'music'. And there is NOTHING else that exists 'in this world' that has the POWER of music. No other art form with equal power over the masses.

Not too many wars started over a song. Normally takes words.

 

[Strong in Him]

So is it possible that the musics effect was on the 'evil spirit' rather than Saul himself? That is wasn't Saul being soothed so much as the 'evil spirit' being appeased? Is that possible?

I suppose anything is possible, but it doesn't seem that likely.
There is no evidence that from the OT that people tried to appease evil spirits, nor that they were able to be appeased. In the NT, Jesus didn't even try, or stand for any nonsense; he rebuked them and drove them out. He finally defeated Satan and his minions on the cross. I would suggest that if it took the death of the Son of God to defeat the powers of hell, and if we have power over the evil one, and victory in Spiritual warfare through the name of Jesus, playing a nice tune, or a bit of Beethoven, isn't really going to have any affect.

I have already expounded upon the POWER of music. What I question is: is it a 'thing of this world' or somehow 'separate' from this world?

And my answer - which I'm not sure you are willing to accept is, no; it's not of this world.
Christians believe that the world, indeed the universe, and everything in it was created by God. John 1:3 says that through him (Jesus) ALL things were made; there is NOTHING that was not made through him.
NOTHING. Arts, music, Science, sport, the ability to work and invent, as well as all the physical things like trees, flowers, animals, sea life etc, was made by God through Jesus.

And let me ask this: Do you believe that adults or children are more able to be influenced by 'spirits' either good or evil?

I think that everyone is affected, and influenced, by the things, people, forces, ideas etc all around them. If a toddler is bought up in a Christian household, regularly prayed for, taken to church, learns about the Bible etc, they will grow up to know God, his ways and will and the things of God, and will learn how to recognise evil and things that are not from God. If someone is brought up in a non Christian household, they will be influenced by other things - maybe the occult, other religions, cults or just the view - maybe learned from parents or at school - that God doesn't exist and we can do/believe what we like.
At any point in our lives, we may meet things/people/experiences that challenge our beliefs. This may happen as a result of prayers by Christians - we are involved in spiritual warfare. But Scripture says that we are ALL made in the image of God; we are ALL his creation, and he wants us to know him.

So, when the Bible warns us to separate ourselves from this world. Not to LOVE this world or the things in it, how do we determine what this means? Do you believe that it was left up to us to GUESS what it means?

It's clear from the Bible what it means.
If we put God first, believe in him, his love and his plan of salvation, accept Jesus and are filled with his Spirit, the Bible says that we are walking in the light; that we are of the Spirit and not of the flesh. It says that we are children of God, have been saved, born again and belong to him. Those of us to whom this applies are serving, and living for, God; trying to follow his commands and teachings and not look somewhere else.
People who don't believe in or accept God are, whether they realise it or not, looking for something else to worship, follow and believe in. That might be themselves and their own abilities, (which they don't realise are from God), or it might be film/pop/sport stars or some other belief, like the occult.

One of the first commandments given to God's children was that they NOT 'create ANY graven images of things on land, in the air or in the water. That pretty much covers EVERYTHING 'physical' pertaining to 'this world'.

Anything that we put first in our lives is an idol. Anything that we spend money, time and attention on and worship - worship = WORTH ship - it rather than God, is an idol. That MAY include music, for some people, or it may not. Some people idolise sports/pop stars; others don't.
These are not GRAVEN. A graven image would be if you made/built/created something and made that your idol.

I wonder if that included 'musical instruments'? It's pretty clear that most are 'works of art' as well as functional noise makers. And isn't THAT amazing. Man doesn't 'just' make instruments to make sounds. They are works of 'art' as well.

Maybe.
Maybe some people who make violins, or whatever, sit back and think "aren't I clever? I've created all these beautiful things". If they do, then they are simply putting their work/craft before God and not honouring the One who gave them the ability to create these things in the first place.

I've never heard of a musician buying an instrument to put it in a corner and marvel at its great beauty. They buy the instruments they can afford that will make the best sound - they buy instruments to PLAY and make music.

Ok, now let us consider this: Just because 'this world' has learned to accept the 'way thing ARE' doesn't mean that things are the way they are SUPPOSE to be.

Things haven't been as they are supposed to be since the Garden of Eden.
God created plants, animals, light etc and after each he said, "it is good". After he created mankind, he said "it is VERY good." The world, created by a perfect God, was perfect.
Then Adam and Eve disobeyed, sin, sickness and death came into the world and it was spoilt. by the time of Noah, sin was rampant; absolutely everywhere.
People were created to know God and be in a relationship with him. When we are, things are good and as they are supposed to be. When people don't know the One who made them and are not in a relationship with him, that is not how it is supposed to be.

As I said before, if someone is not putting God, God's word, God's teachings, values and kingdom first, they will find something else to put in his place.
It has been said that Jesus did not come to turn the world upside down; the world was already upside down - without God - and he came to turn it the right way up again.

You know, like banks, paper money, institutions of every sort. Television, movies, internet, guns, rockets, atomic weapons, contaminated food, rampant drug addiction, etc, etc.

But these things are OBVIOUSLY 'wrong'.

Really? You're putting money in the same category as guns and drug addiction? And I would dispute that tv and the internet are wrong. If the internet was wrong, then you and I would be sinning right now.

As with everything else, it's the place you give it in your life that's wrong; whether you use it for good or ill. There are some great/informative/useful and even Christian programmes on tv. And the internet can certainly be used for good - look at all those Christian websites that exist, and we can read the works, teachings and sermons of any past Christian preacher/teacher just by Googling their name.

Or.................music? Are you willing to admit that music IS capable of 'influence'?

I don't think I've ever said that it can't.
Some are influenced to do good by music; some aren't. Some are inspired; some aren't. A piece of music which inspires and influences me, someone else may find boring.

Not true. I can't acknowledge that without KNOWING the intent of the design. And if you cannot assure me that the intent is 'good', then I cannot make such a determination.

?? So you're saying that you can't know that music is used for good unless you yourself have verified the intention of the musician? In that case, this discussion will never get anywhere.

As I said, Scripture says that EVERYTHING in the world and universe was created by God through Jesus. That includes music.
God created ALL things and put mankind in the world to use, enjoy and benefit from them. People don't, and may misuse his gifts or use them fr their own personal gain/benefit. If they do, it is because they don't believe in God, put him first and acknowledge that he has given us all things. That is what the Bible shows us, what Jesus taught us and what Christians believe. If you don't, then that is a different conversation.

I cannot find the means to rest assured that even that music that some consider to be 'holy' isn't directed AT 'the god of this world'. You know, 'the god' that blesses men with riches, fame, glory, etc...............

So even if a Christian composes a hymn or song, writes a musical based on Scripture or composes music that is used in meditation, you are not certain that they are doing it for the glory of God, and believe that they may be influenced by the "god of this world"?

Let me ask you this: Could I sing a song that YOU consider to be 'holy' to 'the god of this world'?

I don't know; could you?
Are you able, or wanting, to worship the god of this world? Do you believe he is someone you want to worship and sing to?

And what song are we talking about anyway? If you mean something like "And Can It Be?", (hymn by Charles Wesley) then obviously not. The god of this world didn't send his Son to die for me, the god of this world doesn't show amazing love, the god of this world doesn't teach that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ - therefore, that hymn doesn't apply, and cannot be addressed to, the god of this world.

Could I sing praise and worship to Satan?

As above.
A) Do you WISH to sing songs to Satan?
B) Can you find any Christian hymns which apply to Satan?

In Scripture, Jesus drove out, rebuked and taught against Satan. He told us to pray "deliver us from the evil one". Satan is evil, darkness, the opposite of God and wants to lead people away from God. NO Christian hymn honours, exalts and worships Satan; Satan did not die for us, does not love us, keep us safe, protect us and we are not his children. If you found a song which did these things, it would not be a Christian hymn.

You say this, but you can't offer any actual instructions concerning HOW they are to played.

?? Why do I need to?
Everyone learns to play instruments in the same way. Some choose to worship and honour God with their instruments; some don't.
The Psalmist tells us to worship God with the trumpet, lyre harp etc - you either believe that and do it, or you don't.

Yet I have already pointed out that there is more than one God that we deal with. Can you prove that the music you insist brings glory and honor to God isn't REALLY being directed towards 'the god of this world'?

Can you prove that the Christians who say they are writing their music for the glory of God, and using the gift he has given them to his glory, are, in fact, closet satanists and worshipping the devil? If you can't, then you are doing them s great disservice - and maybe slandering them - to suggest otherwise.

I can't acknowledge that without some PROOF that you are correct.

That's up to you then.
You clearly can't accept Christian testimony and don't seem to want to accept anything without proof.

If you cannot tell me how to discern the difference then it is YOU who are 'guessing' and me warning you that guessing can get you in a lot of trouble with God.

I've told you.
The Bible tells us. The Bible tells us how to belong to God, and that anyone who does not belong to the God of Creation belongs to another god - the god of this world. The Bible tells us that Jesus is our Shepherd, the Good Shepherd, and that his sheep know HIS voice.

Like this discussion we presently attend to.

I don't think you have ever really done ANY research into the subject. You are kind of 'flying by the seat of your pants' as the saying goes.

I don't think there's a lot of point continuing this discussion.
I have told you, several times, what I believe, why I believe it and what Scripture says, on this subject and the subject or worship/listening to God's voice etc; but you not only ask for proof, you are now getting insulting and implying I am making my answers up as I go along.

I have spent over an hour writing this reply alone, and I suspect you will still argue, tel me I don't know what I am talking about and contradict my opinion.

My answers; music is not of this world, it was created, and given, by God; like everything else.
If you misuse it, direct it to the devil, try to influence and corrupt people through it, then that is not good - but it would be YOU, the sinful person, doing that and not the music itself.
If you choose to use music to honour and worship God, glorify him and draw close to him, great - but it would be YOU, the Christian, holy person who was doing that and not the music itself.

Believe this or not, I really don't mind.
I know that I love music, am inspired by, and can worship God through, music. I know that I like to play, or try to play, certain instruments to worship God and help others to do so.
That is a fact. Believe it or not - I really don't mind.

Edited to correct Bible reference.