Is mormonism Christianity?

[Owen Clapp]

I am mormon and I want to debate with people about it being a christian religion or not.

 

[Tree of Life]

I would argue that it is not Christianity as defined by the Nicene Creed. But that's pretty obvious and may not be a debate you're interested in...

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would argue that it is not Christianity as defined by the Nicene Creed. But that's pretty obvious and may not be a debate you're interested in...

Exactly. The Nicene Creed is the agreed upon basic beliefs of Christianity. Non belief in the Trinity is just one tenant that knocks Mornonism out of the running, but there are many, many more in that belief system.

Now Mormonism would like to disagree with the Nicene Creed and say that because they believe in Jesus or call Him Jesus that that should include them, but it is a different Jesus, not the Christian Jesus because they change the diety of Christ for one thing.

Although if the person would like to debate this, I'm fine with it because their own books contradict these basic Christian beliefs as well as JS and BY own words.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

..

 

[Alla27]

I am mormon and I want to debate with people about it being a christian religion or not.

Hi, I am glad to have you here.

 

[dzheremi]

It's pretty clear that Mormons believe it to be so, but as others have pointed out, we (all Christianity) have a different standard in the Nicene Creed, set long before Joseph Smith or any of us were ever around.

So I'm going to have to say no.

 

[South Bound]

Careful saying Mormonism isn't Christian I agree, of course, but there's a moderator here who will give you an infraction for it

 

[rockytopva]

I believe the churches of Revelation are seven...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy -Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages.
Thyatira - Catholicism - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism -A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid.
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to cash in on ministry.

And all these churches fit in the definition of what is called the Nicene Creed. I believe in one church with seven congregations. We may disagree with each other on doctrinal lines, including this interpretation of Revelation, but the whole church fits within these boundaries...

Messianic, Martyr, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Wesleyan, and Charismatic. All Christian churches within the one. We consider Mormonism, along with all the wild fantasies of Joseph Smith, outside the description of the Christian Church.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:9

If the Mormons would toss the book of Mormon, and simply call themselves the latter day saints, and cleave the to Bible, we would let them in.

 

[smithed64]

Okay,
First let's get the definitions out of the way.

ADAM LDS--Father of physical mankind. Adam is also known as Michael the archangel, the ancient of days, (D&C 116).

Bible--the first created man by whom all of humanity descends. He was not Michael the archangel.

Genesis 1:27-28
27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.

ATONEMENT


LDS--The sacrifice of Christ that made resurrection possible along with the possibility of our earning forgiveness of sins.

Bible--The substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. He died for our sins (1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 2:2).

AARONIC PRIESTHOOD

LDS--A lesser priesthood in the LDS church. It is still used in LDS church practices and is held by the very young, (D&C 107:1, 6, 10).

Bible--A priesthood that is no longer necessary now that we have the full revelation of Christ.

BAPTISM

LDS--A necessary ordinance for salvation in the Mormon church. By it sins are washed away.

Bible--An ordinance of the Christian church that is not necessary for salvation (Rom. 5:1).
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

These are just a few. As you can see with these definitions. That it is a work righteous religion. And also takes away from Christ with it's baptismal regeneration. I can add more. Is Mormon Christian? You decide.

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

Mormon scholars and laity alike hold to social trinitarian beliefs , thus they are brothers and sisters in the Messiah Jesus

 

[Alla27]

It's pretty clear that Mormons believe it to be so, but as others have pointed out, we (all Christianity) have a different standard in the Nicene Creed, set long before Joseph Smith or any of us were ever around.

So I'm going to have to say no.

I have to make a note:
FACT: Christ and His followers(CHRISTIANS) in the 1st century had NOTHING to do with Nicene Creed and its doctrine(standard).
FACT: Mormons are in GOOD group.

 

[Alla27]

Okay,
First let's get the definitions out of the way.
ADAM LDS--Father of physical mankind. Adam is also known as Michael the archangel, the ancient of days, (D&C 116).

He is our common ancestor. So, yes, he is our father. He is the father of physical bodies of his children. Duh.

Bible--the first created man by whom all of humanity descends.

That is what I just said: Adam is our common father.

He was not Michael the archangel.

The Bible does not say this. So, you just made this up.

ATONEMENT
LDS--The sacrifice of Christ that made resurrection possible along with the possibility of our earning forgiveness of sins.

Yes, the Bible says that those who do NOT repent and do not have faith in Christ and do not keep His commandments can NOT have eternal life.
Even though Christ died for their sins they will NOT have eternal life without, faith, repentance and following Christ.

Bible--The substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. He died for our sins (1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 2:2).

LDS believe this.

AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
LDS--A lesser priesthood in the LDS church. It is still used in LDS church practices and is held by the very young, (D&C 107:1, 6, 10).
Bible--A priesthood that is no longer necessary now that we have the full revelation of Christ.

You just made this up. The Bible has no such claim.

BAPTISM
LDS--A necessary ordinance for salvation in the Mormon church. By it sins are washed away.

Actually it is also BIBLICAL claim. So, we agree with the Bible.

Bible--An ordinance of the Christian church that is not necessary for salvation (Rom. 5:1).
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Why do you make up your own doctrine? The Bible does NOT claim that baptism is not necessary.
Your quotes have NO claim that baptism is not necessary. You just make stuff up.

 

[Alla27]

Q: does the Bible claim that only those who follow Nicene creed are Christians?
A: I don't think so.

The Bible says: "Nicene creed" who? what?"

Any first century Christian would say: "I am like LDS I do NOT follow Nicene creed standard".

 

[smithed64]

He is our common ancestor. So, yes, he is our father. He is the father of physical bodies of his children. Duh.

Being rude, isn't helping your case.

That is what I just said: Adam is our common father.

You obviously answered the first without reading the whole post thru.

The Bible does not say this. So, you just made this up.

Your right, the bible never says Adam is Michael, so who made it up?

Yes, the Bible says that those who do NOT repent and do not have faith in Christ and do not keep His commandments can NOT have eternal life.
Even though Christ died for their sins they will NOT have eternal life without, faith, repentance and following Christ.

LDS believe this.

They do, show me?

You just made this up. The Bible has no such claim.

Your absolutely correct. But the LDS do.

Actually it is also BIBLICAL claim. So, we agree with the Bible.

We agree in as much that baptism should be done. But it doesn't save. It is a matter of the conscience and showing how we die to sin and live in Christ.

Why do you make up your own doctrine? The Bible does NOT claim that baptism is not necessary.

We are saved by faith alone and Christ alone. Not baptism. Again, It's a symbol of our conscience. And outward showing of our faith in Christ.

Your quotes have NO claim that baptism is not necessary. You just make stuff up.

Nope. There are tons of scripture in the Bible that speaks about salvation and how we can be saved. And not one, says to be baptized for salvation. Well there are few that many religions have made it sound like it's necessary. But a proper study of that scripture shows otherwise.
Here's a couple and the explanation of them.

1. Matthew 28:19-20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
2. This verse does not to say that baptism is necessary for salvation. It says that baptism is part of making disciples.
3. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then it must also be true that teaching disciples to observe all that Jesus commanded is necessary as well. But this would be salvation by works. Instead, Jesus is explicitly declaring how to make disciples - by baptizing them and teaching them to observe what Christ and commanded.
4. Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
5. I could easily say that he who believes and goes to church will be saved. That is true. But it is belief that saves - not belief and going to church. Likewise, if you believe and read your Bible, you'll be saved; but it isn't reading your Bible that saves you.
6. Likewise, those who believe and are baptized will be saved. But the emphasis is on faith - not on baptism. Notice that Mark 16:16 says that he who does not believe will be condemned. It does not say that he who is not baptized will not be condemned. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then we should find somewhere in Scripture where it says something to the effect of if you're not baptized, you're not saved; but we find no such statement.

The Bible has plenty more, would be glad to share them with you.
But I didn't say any of this. Christ did.

 

[football5680]

If Mormonism is incompatible with the Nicene Creed, then it is not Christianity. If this is ignored, then even Islam can be considered Christianity because they claim to be followers of Jesus as well. They simply accepted another prophet just as the Mormons did and their version of Jesus is vastly different from the traditional view of Jesus which has been held by Christians for 2000 years, just as the Mormon Jesus is vastly different.

 

[Alla27]

Being rude, isn't helping your case.

I was not rude.

You obviously answered the first without reading the whole post thru.
Your right, the bible never says Adam is Michael,
so who made it up?

The ones who say that Adam is not Michael. They make this up. Why is the double standard for LDS?

They do, show me?

John 10:15, 1Ne 11:33 Jesus died for our sins. As LDS I was taught this and I believe that this LDS Doctrine is true.

We agree in as much that baptism should be done. But it doesn't save. It is a matter of the conscience and showing how we die to sin and live in Christ.

You just made this up. There is no such claim in the Bible that: 1) baptism does NOT save, 2)it is just matter of conscience

We are saved by faith alone and Christ alone.

You just made this up. There is no such claim in the Bible that by faith alone we are saved. Looks like not only LDS make up stuff.

Not baptism. Again, It's a symbol of our conscience. And outward showing of our faith in Christ.

But the Bible does not claim that baptism is not necessary. Those who claim that it is not necessary make up their own doctrine. MEN made doctrine.

Nope. There are tons of scripture in the Bible that speaks about salvation and how we can be saved. And not one, says to be baptized for salvation. Well there are few that many religions have made it sound like it's necessary. But a proper study of that scripture shows otherwise.
Here's a couple and the explanation of them.
Matthew 28:19-20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
This verse does not to say that baptism is necessary for salvation. It says that baptism is part of making disciples.

It doesn't say that it is NOT necessary. Why can you make up stuff and LDS can't?
So, if baptism is part of making disciples then it is necessary for salvation. Can you show me the biblical claim where it says that those who are not disciples of Christ can be saved?

If baptism is necessary for salvation, then it must also be true that teaching disciples to observe all that Jesus commanded is necessary as well.

Yep. You are 100% correct. Can you list commandments of Christ that we shouldn't keep? Please, quote the Bible.

But this would be salvation by works.

Did Jesus ever said that we don't have to keep ALL His commandments? Did He say that it is up to us what to keep and what not to keep? I don't think so.
But Christ knows that we have weaknesses. He knows that we have temptations. He knows that we will break His commandments. That is why we need to repent.
If I commit adultery it could because I am addicted to sex, I am weak and can NOT resist temptation. But I can resist it and I can overcome it and I can repent. Christ will forgive me.
But if I choose not to be baptized it has NOTHING to do with my weakness, addictions or temptations. It is OPEN REBELION. Can I be saved while I am in open rebellion against God's will? Hmm, I don't think so.

Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
AMEN. Those who believe AND are baptized will be saved. To choose not to be baptized = rebel openly against God's will.

I could easily say that he who believes and goes to church will be saved. That is true. But it is belief that saves - not belief and going to church. Likewise, if you believe and read your Bible, you'll be saved; but it isn't reading your Bible that saves you.

You just made this up. There are no such claims in the Bible. It is your own philosophy, opinion, conclusion. It is opinion of mortal, imperfect man.
But if you believe and do NOT go to Church and do NOT read scriptures you rebel against God's will. Can my faith save me when I rebel? May be faith alone is not enough? BTW, there is NO such claim in the Bible as "by faith ALONE we are saved". It is YOUR claim. It is claim of mortal, imperfect man.
I could easily say that he who believes and goes to church will be saved. That is true. But it is belief that saves - not belief and going to church. Likewise, if you believe and read your Bible, you'll be saved; but it isn't reading your Bible that saves you.

Likewise, those who believe and are baptized will be saved. But the emphasis is on faith - not on baptism. Notice that Mark 16:16 says that he who does not believe will be condemned. It does not say that he who is not baptized will not be condemned. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then we should find somewhere in Scripture where it says something to the effect of if you're not baptized, you're not saved; but we find no such statement.

I will tell you why it says" that he who does not believe will be condemned" without mentioning baptism.
Emphasis on BOTH faith and baptism when the Bible says about salvation.
Why isn't baptism mentioned when it talks about condemnation? Because those who do not have faith in the first place will not keep Christ's commandments and being baptized is one of them.
Baptism is meaningless without faith. Who cares if I am baptized and have no faith in Christ? I will be condemned
What is the point to mention baptism if there is no faith in the first place?

Conclusion: those who have no faith will never choose to be baptized. They will not be saved.
Those who have faith but choose not to be baptized are rebels. They are NOT Christ's disciples. They will not be saved.

To be Christ's disciple = have faith +to be baptized(keep the commandments/works) in Christ's Church and not in men made churches.
But those who have faith AND then of course baptized will be saved.

But I didn't say any of this. Christ did.

Yes, you quote Christ + you make some stuff up.

 

[Alla27]

If Mormonism is incompatible with the Nicene Creed, then it is not Christianity. If this is ignored, then even Islam can be considered Christianity because they claim to be followers of Jesus as well. They simply accepted another prophet just as the Mormons did and their version of Jesus is vastly different from the traditional view of Jesus which has been held by Christians for 2000 years, just as the Mormon Jesus is vastly different.

Christians of the first century:
"Nicene creed what?! Never heard of it"


Muslims deny that Christ is Savior and that He died for our sins.
LDS and first century Christians believe that Christ is Savior and that He died for our sins.

Muslims do not believe that Jesus Christ is God.
LDS and first century Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God.

LDS are in good company.
Like first century Christians like LDS. We are one.

 

[Owen Clapp]

Just want to say, Nicene Creed was made by humans, it's not biblical.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Mormon scholars and laity alike hold to social trinitarian beliefs , thus they are brothers and sisters in the Messiah Jesus

What is a social trinitarian belief? I think you just made that up.

 

[Tree of Life]

Just want to say, Nicene Creed was made by humans, it's not biblical.

You are correct in saying that the Nicene Creed is not found as such in Scripture.

It is the earliest summary of Christian doctrine that we have, though, and it is considered by most all churches to be a baseline standard of Christian faith. So "Christianity" takes the Nicene Creed to be the standard.

If you want to argue that Mormonism is part of Christianity and you don't want to use the Nicene Creed then you've got to suggest another standard. But when you do this you'll simply be begging the question (assuming what you're trying to prove) because you're setting your own goal posts and then victoriously meeting them. The only people who will agree with you are Mormons.

If you want to convince Christians that Mormonism belongs within Christianity then you will have to convince us using our standards - the Nicene Creed. Since you won't do that then I don't think there's any grounds for a meaningful debate.