Is Moralism A Problem?

ViaCrucis

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"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth [not practices] righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7).

Doeth or Does righteousness is different than practices righteousness.
Rick who does lots of walking all day is not the same as...
Rick who practices lot of walking all day.

We would assume in the last sentence that Rick has a problem in walking sometimes so he needs to practice in walking in order to be like the other Rick who simply "does lots of walking all day."

Wrong sense of practice. A better comparison would be "Rick, who makes a practice of walking all day", practice as in routine action.

Τεκνία μηδεὶς πλανάτω ὑμᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν δικαιοσύνην δίκαιός ἐστιν καθὼς ἐκεῖνος δίκαιός ἐστιν

The relevant piece of the text is in bold, poion ten dikaiosunen.

Poion is the present participle active tense of poieo, the chief meaning is "to make", with a secondary meaning of "to do"; both with a range of other nuanced meanings.

"Does righteousness" and "makes a practice of righteousness" (and similar) have equal meaning here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Wrong sense of practice. A better comparison would be "Rick, who makes a practice of walking all day", practice as in routine action.

Τεκνία μηδεὶς πλανάτω ὑμᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν δικαιοσύνην δίκαιός ἐστιν καθὼς ἐκεῖνος δίκαιός ἐστιν

The relevant piece of the text is in bold, poion ten dikaiosunen.

Poion is the present participle active tense of poieo, the chief meaning is "to make", with a secondary meaning of "to do"; both with a range of other nuanced meanings.

"Does righteousness" and "makes a practice of righteousness" (and similar) have equal meaning here.

-CryptoLutheran

One more time. How many times do you have to hate your brother in order to qualify in hating your brother?
 
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Once.

-CryptoLutheran

1 John 3:15 says,
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

So if it only takes one time to hate one's brother, and we are to believe 1 John 3:15 plainly in what it says, this means that the one who hates his brother has no eternal life abiding in them. So yes. It is one sin, and it is not "practicing lots of sin" whereby it is a loss of salvation.

One has to meet the condition of "not hating their brother" in order to have eternal life abiding in them. This ties in with 1 John 3:10, etc.
 
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ViaCrucis

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1 John 3:15 says,
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

So if it only takes one time to hate one's brother, and we are to believe 1 John 3:15 plainly in what it says, this means that the one who hates his brother has no eternal life abiding in them. So yes. It is one sin, and it is not "practicing lots of sin" whereby it is a loss of salvation.

One has to meet the condition of "not hating their brother" in order to have eternal life abiding in them. This ties in with 1 John 3:10, etc.

So nobody's saved then?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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So nobody's saved then?

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and FEW be there that find it.
Most believe in a sin and still be saved type belief.

I mean, stop and think for a moment. Wouldn't God have to agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin and still be saved? How exactly can God agree with sin? He can't. God is holy, good, just, and fair in everything He does. Sure, there is mercy, but the mercy of God or His grace is for us to walk holy and upright. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How exactly do you do that with your kind of belief? You cannot. Again, how does 1 John 3:15 work in your belief? It cannot work with your belief. So you are forced to alter Scripture to fit your belief, my friend (Unless you have a logical explanation in Scripture for it).
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and FEW be there that find it.

Few is considerably more than none.

Most believe in a sin and still be saved type belief.

It's called simul iustus et peccator, and its believed because its biblical.

I mean, stop and think for a moment. Wouldn't God have to agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin and still be saved? How exactly can God agree with sin? He can't. God is holy, good, just, and fair in everything He does. Sure, there is mercy, but the mercy of God or His grace is for us to walk holy and upright. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

A proper understanding of the distinction and dichotomy between Law and Gospel would help clear your confusion on this matter.

2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How exactly do you do that with your kind of belief? You cannot. Again, how does 1 John 3:15 work in your belief? It cannot work with your belief. So you are forced to alter Scripture to fit your belief, my friend (Unless you have a logical explanation in Scripture for it).

See above.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Few is considerably more than none.

So you believe that all believers throughout existence have hated their brother?
If so, then why does John appear to be in support of teaching such a thing in 1 John 3:15?
Was John lying or exaggerating? Did John mean something else entirely beyond what he actually plainly stated in 1 John 3:15?

You said:
It's called simul iustus et peccator, and its believed because its biblical.

No, a willful sin and still be saved type belief is not biblical. Jesus rejected the believer who did good works and yet they also did iniquity or sin (See Matthew 7:23).

You said:
A proper understanding of the distinction and dichotomy between Law and Gospel would help clear your confusion on this matter.

Again, that does not resolve the problem of God having to agree with your plan of salvation that says you can willfully sin and still be saved on some level. How can a holy God agree with sin? He cannot.

Also, you are not explaining how Titus 2:11-12 works. In your view, grace does not teach us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously in godly in this present world but it teaches that we can sin and still be saved (Which is the opposite of what Titus 2:11-12 says). Grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living) (See Romans 5:21). Christ died for us for the purpose that He might sanctify and wash us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (See Ephesians 5:25-27).

You said:
See above.

-CryptoLutheran

Sorry. That is not a good enough explanation on 2 Corinthians 7:1. You need to explain how this verse works with your belief that says we can sin and still be saved. Why even perfect holiness in the fear of God? There is no fear of God in a sin and still be saved type belief. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? Think.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So you think no believer today cannot hep themselves in regards to hating their brother?

Christ our God has said to even be angry with our brother is murder. And the Apostle has said that all which is not of faith is sin. Do I think that Christians are going around actively hating others? No. Do I think that we all struggle, falter, and fail to live up to the high calling of Christ to be lovers of our neighbor? Absolutely.

Maybe you do a pretty good job and can avoid getting angry, losing patience, or holding ill-will feelings toward others for a while. But eventually, no matter how patient and calm you are, you aren't perfect in your flesh, and so you will fail and falter. We all do. That isn't excuse to sin, that's acknowledging the reality of the Christian life while here in this mortal body of death as a people who have been told that this life is a cross to bear.

If so, then why does John appear to be in support of teaching such a thing in 1 John 3:15?
Was John lying or exaggerating? Did John mean something else entirely beyond what he actually plainly stated in 1 John 3:15?

Oh, he meant exactly what he said. And as such it's a great example of what in Lutheran parlance we'd refer to as the "Second Use of the Law", a perfect illustration of how this works is found in the 7th chapter of St. Paul's letter to the Romans,

"What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
" - Romans 7:7-20

No, a willful sin and still be saved type belief is not biblical. Jesus rejected the believer who did good works and yet they also did iniquity or sin (See Matthew 7:23).

Wilful or unwillful, sin remains sin. Also, could you point out where Matthew 7:23 mentions that Christ casts away the one who says "Lord, Lord" because "they also did iniquity or sin"? That doesn't seem to be something I'm seeing in the text.

Again, that does not resolve the problem of God having to agree with your plan of salvation that says you can willfully sin and still be saved on some level. How can a holy God agree with sin? He cannot.

You're right, He can't. Which is why if we are trying to be righteous and holy according to His commandments, we aren't getting anywhere. We're all condemned, and damnation is our reward.

So it's a good thing that it's not about the Holy God agreeing with our sin, but the kind and gracious God saving us through His only-begotten Son, for the ungodly, the wicked, and the wretched.

Also, you are not explaining how Titus 2:11-12 works. In your view, grace does not teach us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously in godly in this present world but it teaches that we can sin and still be saved (Which is the opposite of what Titus 2:11-12 says). Grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living) (See Romans 5:21). Christ died for us for the purpose that He might sanctify and wash us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (See Ephesians 5:25-27).

In light of God's grace we ought to live good and godly lives. Which we also see elsewhere, such as in Romans 6, that in light of our Holy Baptism we ought to regard ourselves dead to sin and alive to God. Seeing as the Apostle has said, "Since grace abounds shall we go on sinning? Heaven forbid!" and yet, "Where sin abounds, grace abounded all the more". This is important: Grace covers all our sin, not as excuse for sin, but as forgiveness of it; and in light of this grace we should live out our faith in humility and love and obedience.

You would also do well to keep reading St. Paul's letter to Titus, "But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:4-7)

Sorry. That is not a good enough explanation on 2 Corinthians 7:1 to explain how it works with your belief that says we can sin and still be saved. Why even perfect holiness in the fear of God? There is no fear of God in a sin and still be saved type belief. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? Think.

The Law should cause us to tremble, because the Law brings death on account of our sin. Why would we not tremble when we "fall in the hands of the living God"? But it is not in fear and trembling where our justification is found, but rather that is found by God's grace alone, who through faith has given us all things in Christ, and made us heirs and children. So, maybe we should trust in Jesus to save us, and when we fall and falter, we should show godly sorrow and repent; and then keep trusting Jesus.

At the end of the day I just think maybe I should put my hope in Christ and His Gospel, not in the wretched works of my flesh.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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