is metal music a sin? cuz if it is i'm screwed.

[woobadooba]

wooba dooba dsnt know anything about music. death metal brings out the best in me thank you very much, listen to whatever music you want, just dont burn churches or curse god

 

[nephilimiyr]

I disagree. I think that the 70's and 80's were actually a much better period for Christian rock.

I don't believe that bands as original as Daniel Amos or the 77s or folks like that could ever make it today.

Just look at all of the people making good, original music who have now been dumped by the Christian music industry.

Jerome Olds put out the finest piano driven rock this side of Bruce Hornsby, but Nashville simply could not handle a pudgy, thirty something guy who could not be easily pigeonholed.

Same with Randy Stonehill, one of the fouders and one of the most consistently creative artists of the Christian rock movement. He's been dropped by his last two labels and has been forced to go the indie route.

Look at things from where I'm sitting. As a mid-thirties, college educated, white male with a wide variety of musical influences, there is no place for me to go to hear Christian music, much less Christian rock.

Everything now is made for teenyboppers, secretaries, old ladies, or urban audiences. Meanwhile, people like me are left out in the cold.

Back in the eighties, there were many artists for somebody like me to identify with and enjoy. Not so, now.

The seventies were, in spite of their unfair reputation, a tremendous era for music, especially Christian music. The production standards may not have been as high as their mainstream counterparts and the songwriting may have been a little simplistic, but there was something very engaging about the innocence of it all. Nashville had not yet gotten their dirty hooks into Christian music and it was building, in a roundabout way, on the back of the Texas Outlaw music, which emphasized independence and artist autonomy.

To listen to "Shotgun Angel" today, Daniel Amos was keeping steady pace with their mainstream contemporaries.

I just don't see those things happening today.

But that's just me.

I can't argue anything here that you wrote. I just don't remember any christian rock groups from that era. Now a days you have christian radio stations that play this music where as when I grew up there was none. It really wasn't until the late 80s when I started to hear more and more Christian rock groups. And I believe it wasn't until 1990 when my town here got it's first all Christian rock radio station playing nothing but Christian Rock and from that time on Christian Rock has grown considerably.

I do appreciate your opinion in what was better. I can't argue your opinion because I never heard that music before. I will say this though. The 70's music was a tremendous era for all types of music. To me that decade holds some of me favorite music. The 80's on the other hand I view as the worst decade for music. Other than a few groups nothing original or great came out of that decade. The 80's just stunk!

 

[philN]

I answered your question. But to state it more clearly: If the music elevates the thoughts to God, then it is good. But if it induces ill-willed feelings, and thus distracts the mind from God, then it is evil.

Okay. And I said that this is subjective: if you listen to anything with the right mindset, it can elevate the thoughts to God. If you are discerning and listen objectively, music does not have to induce feelings of ill-will.

 

[woobadooba]

Okay. And I said that this is subjective: if you listen to anything with the right mindset, it can elevate the thoughts to God. If you are discerning and listen objectively, music does not have to induce feelings of ill-will.

I disagree with this on the grounds that it isn't possible to have the right mindset while deliberately doing things that impact the mind in an ungodly way, such as listening to music that promotes violence, drugs, and sexual immorality. And even without the lyrics, the same mind from which the lyrics dawned is the same mind from which the music was composed. So that really isn't saying much for the quality of the music. It is not godly, but Satanic.

In fact, it is because the mind isn't right that someone would listen to this trash to begin with!

Moreover, this music impairs the mind to such a degree that it encumbers ones ability to discern the voice of the Spirit.

Again, I encourage you to read Phil. 4:8!

 

[philN]

Satan doesn't have to be omnipresent when he has millions of other fallen angels at his disposal and who work with him in concert to distroy as many souls as they can.

And how do you know that all of these demons have the capability to destroy souls? Throughout the Bible there are about 70 references to demons, all of which refer to demons as either a false god or something that people are possessed by. I'm not positive, but I don't think either of those things have the power to destroy a soul. At least, I don't see scriptural evidence for it.

As for Satan being omniscient or omnipotent I never suggested anything of the sort. Do you even know what those words mean? If you do why are you accusing me of making such a claim?

Calm down. I never accused you of making that claim. I was stating facts. Satan is a created being. He is not some cosmic mind-altering overlord. He is a created being.

Nobody here, including myself, have made such a claim so why are you argueing it? We do say that Satan, demons, or evil spirits do have the power to influence people. St Paul writes about this quite often and warns all of us to watch out for them. If these powers and evil spirits have no sway over us why does Paul tell us to put on our spiritual armor?

Ephesians 6:11-13, Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

I also never said that we cannot be influenced by music. You are putting words in my mouth. What I said was that we have to be discerning in what we listen to. If the Holy Spirit tells me that I should not be listening to a certain band or album or genre, then I should listen. But if I do not have a conviction about it, then there is nothing wrong with it. That's the Holy Spirit's job.

Sorry PhilN, the way you talk is that there is nothing out there that is going to hurt you. You contradict Paul by saying that you don't need any kind of armour at all because you believe that all things are good. Well if we shouldn't be on our guard and being careful with what we get ourselves into why does Paul say that we do wrestle with spiritual wickedness and we do need to protect ourselves?

I don't believe all things are good. I believe that all THINGS (meaning objects) are amoral -- neither good, nor evil. Musical notes are not good or evil. Chairs are not good or evil. Words are not good or evil. In reality, evil does not enter the picture until the music or chair or words cause you to sin.

So you don't think that if someone offers up praise and worship to Satan that that doesn't mean anything? It's just nothin but a thing. And as for "every sound is ruled by God", no it isn't. God has given these evil spirits the freedom to worship themselves and God has given you the freedom to partake of that worship. There is a big difference between the world and the home God has prepared for you and once we are born again with a new spirit we are told to come out of the world. It sounds to me you don't want to leave the world behind you.

Matthew 12:25, And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand

It looks to me that you have a decision to make, which house is it going to be PhilN? Which kingdom are you going to follow and worship?

Wow. I had no idea that the Holy Spirit came to you and told you about what convictions I had regarding music. I had no idea that that was part of His job description. Enlightening.

Seriously. This whole topic is exactly like meat sacrificed to idols. Paul writes that there is meat that has been sacrficed to idols, false gods. He says that some people can still eat the food and not be affected by it or falter in their walk with God. He also says that some people are not able to do that, because some people have different convictions. Paul says that the stronger brother should not cause the weaker brother to sin by eating it in his presence; but other than that he is free to eat it so long as the Holy Spirit does not convict him.

The same thing can be said with this topic. Let's say there is a song that has been dedicated to Satan. Some people can listen to it and not be affected by it or falter in their walk with God. However, some people will associate the music with Satan. For them it is wrong to listen to the music, but it is not their place to force their personal convictions on the other people who have not been convicted.

My God, the God I know is a holy God and He does require that you worship him in a certain way. You do not have the freedom to worship him in anyway you want to. We then glorify God by following his commandments so yes there is a limit to how God can be glorified.

John 4:21-24, Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what: salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

When you are listening to music that is glorifying murder, death, rape, and all other kinds of vile and disgusting blasphemies against God you are not worshipping him but the ones who love such things. And the spirit in which that music came out of is the spirit you worship, glorify, and serve.


What I see is that you are not discerning anything

Well for starters, I never said that I listened to music that glorifies murder, death, rape, or other vile and disgusting blasphemies against God. You just assumed I did. This whole debate was actually initially about music that does not have lyrics -- woobadooba claims that music itself has the ability to be evil. However, since you brought it up: is it wrong to listen to things that talk about murder and death and rape and vile and disgusting things? I don't think so. In fact, you get a lot worse than that when you read the Bible. There is incest, murder, rape, homosexual gang rape, and the list goes on. Is it wrong to read those passages of the Bible? No. Is it wrong to listen to things that discuss those topics? No. Is it wrong to actually go out and do those things? Yes. That is where sin enters the picture.

Paul says that we are to test everything and cling to the good. If I can listen to music and discern what is good and bad, and hold onto the good, who are you to tell me that I am not wrong? You do not know me. You do not know my heart. The same God that said "Thou shalt not murder" said, "Thou shalt not judge". And to be honest, I think it is completely inappropriate for you to assume that because my personal convictions are different than yours, that I am automatically at fault.

I know my boundaries when it comes to music. I cannot listen to music with violent lyrics or that talks in detail about sex. The former because God has not given me the stomach for it; the latter because it leads me to temptation. That said, I do not judge others who God has given the ability to listen to those types of lyrics. In fact, I rejoice that He has given me the freedom to listen to as much as I am able. I have not forced my convictions on you (only stated my case), I would appreciate it if you would give me the same respect.

 

[philN]

I disagree with this on the grounds that it isn't possible to have the right mindset while deliberately doing things that impact the mind in an ungodly way, such as listening to music the promotes violence, drugs, and sexual immorality. And even without the lyrics, the same mind from which the lyrics dawned is the same mind from which the music was composed. So that really isn't saying much for the quality of the music. It is not godly, but Satanic.

First off, you just said a few posts ago that evil enters the picture when music causes you to think on or do bad things. That is exactly what I have been saying all along. Music itself is not evil; evil only enters the picture when you do something evil as a result of listening to it.

Secondly: Food sacrificed to idols. That is an exact parallel to this whole arguement. You are saying that because the music was given to Satan from its conception that it is inherently evil (just as certain christians said that the food sacrificed to false gods were convicted that they should not eat of it). However, I do not have a conviction about listening to certain kinds of music even if the songs were not created with God in mind (just as certain Christians did not have a conviction about eating meat sacrificed to idols).

Neither of us are wrong. We have different convictions and must not force those conviction on one another as they were meant for us, not for everyone.

[QUOTE]
Again, I encourage you to read Phil. 4:8![/QUOTE] I have. Many times before. And a few times since you brought it up. And it seems as though you are trying to squeeze some additional meaning into the verse that is not there. If I am testing everything (as Paul says we must do) and clinging to the good, then I am not livng contrary to Phil. 4:8.

 

[woobadooba]

And now you are contradicting yourself:

Here is what you said first,

Okay. And I said that this is subjective: if you listen to anything with the right mindset, it can elevate the thoughts to God. If you are discerning and listen objectively, music does not have to induce feelings of ill-will.

Listen to anything?

And then you said,

I know my boundaries when it comes to music. I cannot listen to music with violent lyrics or that talks in detail about sex. The former because God has not given me the stomach for it; the latter because it leads me to temptation.

So even you admit that music can influence the mind to such a degree that it can and does induce certain actions.

Truth is, it's not just the lyrics that cause this to happen, but the music itself plays a key role in the mind manipulative process.

So then, even if the lyrics are Christian, if the music itself is of a Satanic origin, the same negative results can occur. Thus the thoughts will not be elevated to God.

I know you don't believe this, but it is my hope that you will one day come to understand it.

 

[philN]

Please don't talk down to me.

Are you even listening to what I am saying? There is not a contradiction there. I said that if you can listen to anything with the right mindset, it can elevate thoughts to God. And then I said that I have boundaries; there are certain songs that I do not listen to (not because the music is bad, or even that the message is negative, but) becuase when I listen to the lyrics, I tend to dwell on them. That has nothing to do with music. That has everything to do with personal temptations. I have to be careful when I read John Donne's poetry, because he wrote a great deal of erotic poetry as well as Christian poetry. Some of his Christian poetry uses erotic imagery. So the message is a positive one, but I still will only read it on occasion and with a great deal of prayer that I do not fall into temptation.

 

[woobadooba]

Please don't talk down to me.

Are you even listening to what I am saying? There is not a contradiction there. I said that if you can listen to anything with the right mindset, it can elevate thoughts to God.

I am only pinting out what you said. The sad thing is that you can't see that you dd in fact contradict yourself.

And I am not talking down to you.

But again, I disagree with you. You can't just listen to anything with the right mindset, and thus glorify God in the process. There is good music, which elevates the thoughts to God. And then there is music that is of a Satanic origin, which impairs the mind to such a degree that it encumbers a person from hearing the voice of the Spirit.

To deny this is to reject the truth!

 

[cathromang]

I answered your question. But to state it more clearly: If the music elevates the thoughts to God, then it is good. But if it induces ill-willed feelings, and thus distracts the mind from God, then it is evil.

That doesn't make the music evil silly, that makes the mind that thinks it that way.
Things are not inherently good or evil - that's an age old heresy.
If certain persons see a cucumber and think of it as a phallic symbol does that make the cucumber evil?
Is the confederate flag evil in itself because some persons use it as a symbol of hatred? No, it's cloth and colors.

And I'm sure the type of music we're referring to is either hard rock/metal or rap. That "devil music" that has made YOU want to swing your hips in a provocative manner like Elvis may not have the same effects on someone else. It's in the mind, not the music. You could take a piece by Bach or Mozart and make something nasty out of it.

Come on, make your God bigger than a drumbeat....

You know why fundamentalists won't make love standing up?
Someone may think they're dancing.

yeah, I may get a warning for that - but I don't care who you are that's funny.

 

[philN]

Therefore as to the[listening] of [music] offerered to [a false god, or Satan]...there is no God but one. For although there may be so-called gods in heaven and on earth -- as indeed there are "gods" and many "lords" -- yet for us there is one God, the FAther, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with [Satan],[listen to music] as really offered to [Satan] and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. [Music] will not condemn us to God. We are no worse off it we do not[listen to] it, and no better off if we do. But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have a knowledge of[listening to music offered to Satan], will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to[listen to music] offered to [Satan]?

I think this is entirely applicable. I have the freedom to listen to all music that my conscience does not tell me not to listen to, so long as I do not cause my brothers and sisters in Christ to stumble.

I think I'm done with this thread.

 

[woobadooba]

That doesn't make the music evil silly, that makes the mind that thinks it that way.
Things are not inherently good or evil - that's an age old heresy.
If certain persons see a cucumber and think of it as a phallic symbol does that make the cucumber evil?
Is the confederate flag evil in itself because some persons use it as a symbol of hatred? No, it's cloth and colors.

And I'm sure the type of music we're referring to is either hard rock/metal or rap. That "devil music" that has made YOU want to swing your hips in a provocative manner like Elvis may not have the same effects on someone else. It's in the mind, not the music. You could take a piece by Bach or Mozart and make something nasty out of it.

Come on, make your God bigger than a drumbeat....

You know why fundamentalists won't make love standing up?
Someone may think they're dancing.

yeah, I may get a warning for that - but I don't care who you are that's funny.

1. I am not silly

2. I realize that evil is not a thing, but a concept, which denotes the idea of an absence of that which is purely good--meaning God.

3. With that said, if the music is not elevating the thoughts to God, but impairing the mind to such a degree that it encumbers the listener from hearing the voice of the Spirit, then yes, it is evil, because it is not of God.

 

[woobadooba]

Therefore as to the[listening] of [music] offerered to [a false god, or Satan]...there is no God but one. For although there may be so-called gods in heaven and on earth -- as indeed there are "gods" and many "lords" -- yet for us there is one God, the FAther, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with [Satan],[listen to music] as really offered to [Satan] and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. [Music] will not condemn us to God. We are no worse off it we do not[listen to] it, and no better off if we do. But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have a knowledge of[listening to music offered to Satan], will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to[listen to music] offered to [Satan]?

Not only will you not listen to the voice of experience, but now you are twisting the scriptures to support a personal preference! 2Pt. 3:16

I think this is entirely applicable. I have the freedom to listen to all music that my conscience does not tell me not to listen to, so long as I do not cause my brothers and sisters in Christ to stumble.

Yes, you do have the freedom to do as you will, but that doesn't mean your choice will edify you.

The bottom line here is that you are wrong. You've denied the voice of experience, the voice of expert Psychologists, and the voice of reason, and now you are twisting the scriptures to support your beliefs.

So yes, there is no point in going forward with this because you aren't willing to listen.

 

[philN]

I'm not twisting the scriptures. I am saying that this passage applicable to the topic of music.

Don't be a moron.

I have already expained that your arguement from experience is bunk because you haven't offered any evidence apart from "you don't know what you are talking about" and that your psychological evidence is a load of horseshit, because I know many people that listen to hard music that do not embody the traits that that article purported. Your arguement of reason is nonexistent. I asked you specifically what made music evil; you said that it was whether or not it focused on positive things. I said that that was subjective (which it is: I can listen to Mozart and think about how beautiful it sounds or I can think about all the terrible things that Mozart did. In one sense it evokes a positive message, in one sense a negative one, even though the music is the same. Subjectivism!); and you said that it is not subjective.

Now when I say that the food sacrificed to idols passage can be applied to music, you say I am twisting the scriptures. If anyone is not listening to reason it is you. I provide evidence for the things I am saying, but after carrying on in this arguement for multiple pages, I am beginning to think that either you are too ignorant to listen or possibly that you just don't want to listen.

May God grant you a spirit of understanding so that you can see just how free he really made you. God is so much bigger than you are making him out to be and you are so much more free than your mind is telling you.

Peace,

Phil

 

[woobadooba]

I'm not twisting the scriptures. I am saying that this passage applicable to the topic of music.

Don't be a moron.

First you told me that I am ridiculous, and now you are calling me a moron.

You know, statements like this only weaken your case!

It is evident at this point what spirit is inspiring your posts.

 

[CrownedInTerror]

1. Wooba dooba is silly.
2. 80's was great for music and metal... slayer, vital remains, mercyful fate, bathory, mayhem, burzum.
3. Music is music, if you are saying because it sounds evil because there are harmonic/melodic minors being played you are ignorant.

Just because you listen to music that may have lyrics that aren't praising god doesn't make it bad. You just say it is satanic because you are blind, ignorant, and dont know anything about the genre. Im sure that everyone reads about satan and demons in the bible is sure to do evil stuff because they read about them right wooba. Tool.

 

[CrownedInTerror]

Also according to your ignorant theory, washing my hands, taking a shower, using the toilet etc are evil because they are not elevating me with god. Stop spreading nonsense.

 

[philN]

First you told me that I am ridiculous, and now you are calling me a moron.

You know, statements like this only weaken your case!

It is evident at this point what spirit is inspiring your posts.

Actually, I never said you were ridiculous or a moron. I said that your argument was ridiculous and I said not to be a moron.

I apologize if you misunderstood what I was saying or took it in the wrong way.

 

[woobadooba]

1. Wooba dooba is silly.
2. 80's was great for music and metal... slayer, vital remains, mercyful fate, bathory, mayhem, burzum.
3. Music is music, if you are saying because it sounds evil because there are harmonic/melodic minors being played you are ignorant.

Just because you listen to music that may have lyrics that aren't praising god doesn't make it bad. You just say it is satanic because you are blind, ignorant, and dont know anything about the genre. Im sure that everyone reads about satan and demons in the bible is sure to do evil stuff because they read about them right wooba. Tool.

Honestly, you do not know what you are talking about. It's not solely an issue of lyrics, but of what the music itself does to the psyche.

 

[woobadooba]

Also according to your ignorant theory, washing my hands, taking a shower, using the toilet etc are evil because they are not elevating me with god. Stop spreading nonsense.

Truth is, God wants us to be healthy. Proper hygiene promotes good health. Hence, by taking care of ourselves in this way we are honoring God.

Moreover, your choice of music is a personal preference. These things that you mentioned above are necessities. There is a difference.

It would be wise for you to stick to the context of a topic before calling something nonsense!