Is Messianic Judaism the real unabridged form of Christianity?

[vanshan]

The Temple worship of the Sadducees and historic Judaism is really a fortaste of the Mystical Supper in Orthodoxy, where Christ becomes the Sacrifice for all. The Pharisees who turned to synagogue worship did away with sacrifice teaching that prayers and good deeds could replace sacrifice. One wonders if the success of the Pharisees in taking over Judaism was in reaction against the Nazarenes.

Basil

 

[SaintGeorge]

If the Church has failed and needs to be corrected by the Messianic Jews, then the Holy Spirit failed. We know that's not possible; it would mean that God's prophecies were false.

The Church has not failed, it has triumphed. If you look in the letters of the Church Fathers, you will see that they make many references to Messianic Jews (a.k.a. Nazarenes). Men are the one's who've faultered.

Are your beliefs incorrect? I don't know. Only God knows that. From what I've seen, you're all very faithful people. You've demonstrated how much you love Christ. For this, he'll surely reward you.

I agree with a lot of your doctrines too, but one thing that bothers me is saints. Are we to venerate them for their good deeds? maybe. This practice however does resemble the pagan practice of having a patron god for your household that would intercede on your behalf by talking to the lead god. Look in Greek mythology, you'll see what I mean.

I'm now attending a Messianic Synagogue, but that may change with time. I will still remain an inquirer though, so you'll see alot of me.

Please don't think of me as lost. Think of me as eternally searching for ways to better serve my God.

May God bless all of you for blessing the sacred name of YHVH!
Ah-main.

 

[Matrona]

I agree with a lot of your doctrines too, but one thing that bothers me is saints. Are we to venerate them for their good deeds? maybe. This practice however does resemble the pagan practice of having a patron god for your household that would intercede on your behalf by talking to the lead god. Look in Greek mythology, you'll see what I mean.

Esran, let's say you have a bad food allergy and one day something triggers it and makes you go into anaphylactic shock--you have to get to the hospital or you'll die. The Virgin Mary just happens to be standing nearby, and you ask her for help.

Now, Mary isn't a doctor, so she can't cure you herself, so she picks you up, puts you in her car, and races to the nearest hospital with you in the backseat. She gets there very fast because she knows exactly where it is, since her Son just happens to be the Head Physician there.

So, Mary takes you straight to her Son, the Head Physician, knowing that He'll know what to do. He works on you for awhile and soon you're on the mend. Grateful, and knowing how close you came to dying, you thank the Head Physician for saving your life, but once you're released, you also track down and thank the nice lady who took you to the hospital.

Sure, you might have been able to drive yourself to the hospital, but you might not have been able to find your way there as fast as Mary could, or you might have passed out and died on the way. Does a hospital reject patients just because someone else brought them there? No! They even have people whose profession it is to bring the sick and injured to the hospital (and bring the dead to the morgue!).

So why wouldn't God's own Hospital work the same way?

Love ya!

In XC,
Matrona

 

[Hunter3000]

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I agree with a lot of your doctrines too, but one thing that bothers me is saints. Are we to venerate them for their good deeds? maybe.

I wrote this article roughly a month ago or so, I hope it applies here


The Holy Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is the Living Icon of the Invisible God (Colossians 1:15), and we are all called to be icons of Christ (Genesis 1:27). For it is so that if we love others (who are images of Christ) we love the Christ God or if we hate others we hate the Christ God (1 John 4:20); what we do to others we do to Christ (Matthew 25:40). In truth the verses Matthew 22:36 & 39 mean exactly this: We are called to By God Most High to love Him through His Image and those who are IN His Image. Now that this is all clear in our mind’s eye, rhetorically speaking, what is worship, what is prayer and is there a difference between the two actions?

True Worship of the Christ God, as I understand it, is the placing of one’s Love in the Father and Faith/Trust in the Son and our Fear in the Holy Spirit. And through these THREE things (note the THREE things), we are to do God’s most Holy Will out of our own free will. Many people believe that since the Orthodox Christians pray to Saints and thus worship saints and but nothing could be further from the truth.

Just because I, an Orthodox Christian, pray to Saints it doesn’t mean that I worship Saints. Although prayer can be used as part of worship it doesn’t mean that prayer equals worship after all one can sing praises of God instead of praying and that can be also be called an act of worship. So what is prayer? Let us begin with a small tale: Many years ago, in England in the time of Robin Hood there was a foolish young hunter was strolling through the forest and as walked along a ravine he tripped on a small root and fell over. As he fell he managed to grab onto some vines that were hanging over and through this his life was spared. His benevolent friend, hearing the noise came to the ravine and looked down. The young hunter seeing his friend above him spoke “Friend! I pray to thee! I entreat thee, hand me the end of my rope, that is with my possessions, and pull me to safety!” The young hunter’s friend complied and his life was saved.

What does this mean? Simple, the definition of the word ‘prayer’ is to request, to implore or more precisely it is an appeal in done in supplication to someone else (be it God or man). In ancient times, grammatically speaking the word ‘prayer’ was used just for that. We, in modern times, have figuratively speaking ‘corrupted’ the usage of the word ‘prayer’. Prayer has come to mean, for many, just talking to God, worshiping God and also singing praises to God. Aside from prayer being a form of talking to God (as in begging God for help) it isn’t really praise (even though God may accept it as a form of praise in a manner of speaking). Now that we fully understand the meaning of the word prayer, we can and must conclude that although prayer can be used as a part of, or aspect of Christian worship it is not Christian worship itself as defined before. We must also conclude that prayer and praise alike are merely ‘talking to God’. Now I ask you is speaking to someone else worshiping him or her?

If speaking equaled worship then we should never speak another word save to our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus our Lord and God. This is not the case and since prayer equals pleading as a manner of talking, there is no harm praying to Saints who are alive because they have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus! There is no harm loving Saints or praying to Saints because they are living Images of Christ Jesus as if we love the images then we love whom the images depicts! He who insults the Church or Her children the Saints insults the Christ God Her husband, the Father of Her Children. There is no harm in praying to Saints and in fact it is good thing (provided we don’t only pray to Saints alone and forget praying to Christ) because they are members of the Church and the Church is the Body of Christ and the Soul of the Church (Christ) hears everything His body hears. Simple Logic wins in the end as always.

 

[ufonium2]

This practice however does resemble the pagan practice of having a patron god for your household that would intercede on your behalf by talking to the lead god. Look in Greek mythology, you'll see what I mean.

So because a practice of Christianity is similar to a practice of pagans, it must be wrong? That's like saying "It's wrong to use aspirin because Hitler used aspirin." Hitler was an evil man, and much of what he did was horribly wrong, but that doesn't mean that everything he did (taking aspirin, eating breakfast, etc) was horribly wrong, or that we are evil or wrong for doing some of the same things.

Same with other religions. They are wrong, but that doesn't mean every single detail of their belief or praxis is wrong, or that our faith is invalid because we share some beliefs or praxis.

Also, just because the pagans did it first doesn't mean we got the practice from them. It's perfectly normal for two people (or groups) to come up with the same idea. That's why when you write your dissertation you have to check to make sure nobody else has already written the same paper. It happens all the time in academics, in society, and in religion.

 

[Matrona]

Adolf Hitler attended art school and sold his work on penny postcards. Does this mean we should close down all the art conservatories and imprison anyone selling postcards because they might turn into an evil genocidal dictator?

 

[Orthosdoxa]

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This practice however does resemble the pagan practice of having a patron god for your household that would intercede on your behalf by talking to the lead god. Look in Greek mythology, you'll see what I mean.

These kinds of arguments are often used by Protestants (which is actually what Messianics are) as arguments against the Church. The problem is, by this logic, pretty much all of Christianity fades away. The ancient Egyptians worshipped a god-man who was born of a virgin, who had come to be the Saviour of the world. Sound familiar? If you talk to any pagans or wiccans, they scoff at Christianity, because THEIR religions were invented much earlier, with all the elements that Christians focus on - the virgin birth, the Triune God, a savior god-man, the 3-day ressurrection, EVERYTHING. They say that Christians "stole" all their ideas. So if you reject asking saints in glory to pray for us because of your above reason, then by necessity you must also reject the virgin birth, the perfect savior God-man, and, you must also reject the ressurrection, all of which were pagan ideas that existed before Christianity. So... having rejected all that, I guess you're not a Christian anymore, right? Whoops!

My point being, dear Esran (and do know that everything I am saying is out of love, and I admire the heck out of your zeal to be closer to God), is that this argument leads you to a place I know you don't want to be.

God created this world and everything in it, and created man to be in a perfect communion of Love with Him. When man decided to go his own way, that communion was broken and suddenly man was separated from God. He has spent the millenia since trying to get back to God, trying to understand that which he now lacks. Some of his ideas were right, because that image of God within him was never COMPLETELY decimated. And some of his ideas were wrong. Man intuitively knew there was a higher power of Love. The ancient Chinese sage Lao Tzu spoke of a "Tao" - "something" that was what man was looking for, that was the link that he was missing. The ancient Greek philosopher Socrates called it "Logos" - the Word. Even the ancient native Americans had a word for it, though it escapes me at this moment what it was. And when the second person of the Trinity took on flesh and became incarnate - God revealed to the world that which it had been missing. Christ was that "tao", that "Logos". (In the Chinese New Testament, John 1:1 is translated as, "In the beginning was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God").

Many would be quick to dismiss Socrates as a "pagan" - if that be so, then I guess, if we are to discard all "pagan" things, then we throw out the gospel of St. John - for in the Greek, he used Socrates' word and concept, "Logos", to describe Christ. But... what if rather than just being a "pagan", Socrates was on to something... maybe not everything he believed was correct, but he had SOME truth. What if, rather than Christianity being an adaptation of pagan practices, it is actually the fulness of the Truth, whereas those ancient pagan religions had "pieces" of the Truth - for indeed, that is exactly how it is. Those ancient pagans did the best they could - Christ had not been revealed to the world - they obviously could not have the full Truth!

That which the pagans had that was correct does not mean it should be discarded from Christianity now. Rather, it means that SOME people had SOME truth, but that the entire Truth was not revealed until the coming of the True God-man, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. So seeing pagan so-called "similarities" means nothing more than that those folks were on to something RIGHT.

I hope this makes sense to you. Keep seeking the Lord.

With love and prayers,

Katherine

 

[Rick of Wessex]

Hi, Katherine!

If you talk to any pagans or wiccans, they scoff at Christianity, because THEIR religions were invented much earlier

Sorry for being nitpicky , but Wicca was invented in the 1950's by a British Psychologist, Gerald Gardner, who picked up elements from Celtic Mythology, Alchemy and sorcery.

Before foundig Wicca, he was a member of the Golden Down, an order of British black magicians founded by the satanist Aleyster Crowley in the 19th century.

Now, back to the OP.

Your nitpicky brother in XC,
Rick

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Hi, Katherine!



Sorry for being nitpicky , but Wicca was invented in the 1950's by a British Psychologist, Gerald Gardner, who picked up elements from Celtic Mythology, Alchemy and sorcery.

Before foundig Wicca, he was a member of the Golden Down, an order of British black magicians founded by the satanist Aleyster Crowley in the 19th century.

Now, back to the OP.

Your nitpicky brother in XC,
Rick

So much I don't know....

Ok, ok..... Though I do know at least one Wiccan who claims that, I think the general point is the pagan ELEMENTS of it.

Anyhoo. Esran, did the above make any sense to you? Please keep us updated on your journey.

LK

 

[Rick of Wessex]

And regarding the supposed pagan influence in Christianity, I'd like to recommend this article, Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions?, by Ronald Nash.

Mr. Nash is also the author of this wonderful book, The Gospel and the Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought?

Another wonderful site on this subject is
Confronting the copycat thesis by the Protestant biblical scholar and apologist J. Patrick Holding.

In XC,
Rick

 

[Matrona]

Esran,

You might be interested in reading about Fr. A. James Bernstein. He was born into orthodox Judaism, joined the Jews For Jesus Movement, and finally found the True Faith and became an Antiochian Orthodox priest. Here is a link to his parish: http://www.stpaul-orthodox.org/

 

[SaintGeorge]

The Jews For Jesus movement is NOT Messianic Judaism. It is a deceptive group formed by the Episcopelian Church to get Jewish converts. They are not very Torah observant.

Once again, true Messianic Judaism (a.k.a. apostolic Judaism) is not a movement. It has always been there. In fact, part of it is in communion with the Orthodox Church.

 

[Matrona]

The Jews For Jesus movement is NOT Messianic Judaism. It is a deceptive group formed by the Episcopelian Church to get Jewish converts. They are not very Torah observant.

I know that Jews for Jesus isn't Messianic Jewish, but the point stands.

Once again, true Messianic Judaism (a.k.a. apostolic Judaism) is not a movement. It has always been there. In fact, part of it is in communion with the Orthodox Church.

What are you talking about, in communion with the Orthodox Church?

MJ has only been around for a couple hundred years. They have no historical continuity, no concrete single organization, and not many common teachings with each other. Some are trinitarian, some are not. Some agree with the Nicene Creed, some don't. Those are major doctrinal discrepancies, not minor differences in praxis.

 

[gzt]

Indeed, one really does need to specify what one means by Messianic. I mean, there are Messianic Calvinists, too. As for the ones in communion with the Orthodox Church, more power to them! The truth of the Messianic's claims will in no way contradict the Orthodox teaching, but rather find their fulfillment within the Church.

 

[Matrona]

Maybe Psalm 135 is pagan since it mentions other "gods"?

Psalms 135:5For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.

 

[ufonium2]

Is anyone besides us in communion with us? I'm 99% sure the answer is no, but I could be wrong.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Is anyone besides us in communion with us? I'm 99% sure the answer is no, but I could be wrong.

*LOL*

 

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Esran is speaking more of the Rasta oriented, Apostilic 12 tribes of judah movement. Am I right Esran? They mix coptic,jewish, and African Tradition into a pseudo- traditionalism. They are not the true Church and do not speak the truth. However they are somewhat similar to Orthodoxy in some doctrine.

 

[Matrona]

Esran is speaking more of the Rasta oriented, Apostilic 12 tribes of judah movement. Am I right Esran? They mix coptic,jewish, and African Tradition into a pseudo- traditionalism. They are not the true Church and do not speak the truth. However they are somewhat similar to Orthodoxy in some doctrine.

The Rasta movement is centered around worshipping Hailie Selassie who was Ethiopian Orthodox so this is why Rasta has some similar beliefs with Ethiopian Orthodox. Esran, if this is who you are talking about, neither Rastas nor Ethiopian Orthodox are Eastern Orthodox and we are not in communion with any of them.

 

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Yes, some what, 12 tribes say he was a prophet and Christ is God.