Is Messianic Judaism the real unabridged form of Christianity?

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Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

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Oh, no...............Esran, you've been hanging out in the Messianic Judaism forum, haven't you? :eek:

I don't think I have the strength to answer all your questions. I'll let someone else deal with that. This is just a word of caution: Be very careful about hanging out over there. I respect them, but they can be rather agressive with their beliefs, and their theology does not line up with Orthodoxy.......not even close.

The Church is the new Israel. Jesus did not abolish the law, he completed it. Therefore, Christianity did not replace Judaism as THE Church, it was the completion of Judaism. Despite what you may have heard, the Messianic Judaism movement did not exist until the 19th century (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that). Many MJ's don't even want to be called Christians, and some think the Apostles messed up the message of Christ. I can't really go any deeper than that, perhaps someone else can.
 
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Esran asked:
Is Messianic Judaism the real unabridged form of Christianity?
I highly doubt it, I never heard of the Hebrew Roots Movement until I came across them on an evangelical forum on the internet a couple of years ago. The movement itself seems to be made up of fundamentalists that lack tradition, and instead of coming to the Holy Orthodox Church where authenic Christian and Apostolic Tradition is living, they try to recreate what they think were Christians of the the very first era of the Church. If it were true we would see the so called Messianic Judaism through history, we do not however. It is a modern day innovation just like all of the other sects out there.
Jeff the Finn
 
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countrymousenc

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Welcome back to TAW, Esran.

Theologically, Messianic Judaism is rooted in 19th-century dispensationalism, a comparatively new systematic theology and one of the myriad forms of 19th-century adventism. They are quite sincere, but you should take their claims with a grain of salt. It's a lot like the Baptist "Trail of Blood" claims, which cannot be substantiated. (No offense intended toward Baptists, whose heritage I share, having been brought up that way.) 19th-century dispensationalism came from the Scottish Irvingites, was picked up by one John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren (a separatist group) in England, who brought it to the U.S. where it was popularized by C.I. Scofield, Lewis Sperry Chafer, D.L. Moody, and W.A. Criswell, among others. One of the things that sytem does is to create two peoples of God (under two different covenants) between Christ's advent and his final coming in victory. This is not what the apostles or the church fathers taught. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church, which has not failed to faithfully preserve and rightly interpret the teachings of Christ and the apostles. If the Church has failed and needs to be corrected by the Messianic Jews, then the Holy Spirit failed. We know that's not possible; it would mean that God's prophecies were false.
 
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countrymousenc

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I would like to add, also:

Read Jesus' warnings to the scribes and the pharisees in Matthew 23, the "woe to you" passages, and read on through to the end of the chapter. Also recall the parables in which Jesus warned the Jewish leaders that the kingdom was about to be taken from them and given to others (as indeed, it happened.) Read what you can about the Jewish rebellion against Rome leading up to AD 70, and the destruction of Jerusalem. Then compare what happened to Moses' warnings in Exodus and Deuteronomy, in which he delineated what God would do if the people did not keep His covenant.

I know that this will be offensive to our Messianic Jewish posters, but your questions indicate that you have been fed, in my opinion, some serious falsehoods, and I believe you should take the time for serious consideration of the other side of the story, one that is usually glossed over or swept under the rug in the name of political correctness.
 
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gzt

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If you really want to see where the Jewish influence went in Christianity, look at the mystical theology of the Syriac monks, which is a part of Orthodox Christianity. http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/

And we're separated from the Jews because they refuse to have us.

As far as I've been able to tell from history, jeffthefinn is right. There doesn't seem to be any historical continuity, especially considering the way second century Jewish converts acted.

edit: I just found an interesting link but haven't read through it yet to see which thread it is most pertinent to. http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Resources/Bauer/bauer_a1.htm
 
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Stone_Lock_Comanche

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Messianic Jews believe in a Messiah that will bring peace and equality on this earth. Which we men know that no such thing will happen in this present life. Life is a struggle we will have no heavenly reward if we live this life in comfort and ignorance. We also know who the World leader is going to be that is to bring supposed Peace on this here earth: Anti-Christ. Our Lord fufilled the law. The old testament is the shadow of The New.
 
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Oblio

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readerpaul

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There is much discussion about all this in Acts. Starting with the conversion of Saul in Acts 9, the problems and potentialities of the Jewish and Gentile Church are discussed. Everything culminates, however, in Acts 15. Pharisees who were also Christians (15: 5) asserted that Gentile converts were required to keep the Law of Moses. This prompted the first Council of the Church (Orthodox Study Bible refers to it as the Apostlic Council of A.D. 49 [p. 305, see note 15:6]) to issue the "earliest known Apostolic letter," stating that "...it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well." (Acts 15: 28-29)

It seems at least to me that we have Apostolic witness to answer the question decisively.
 
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Michael G

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Orthodox Christianity is the real unabridged form of Christianity. A quick read of early church history will prove this to be quite true.

As for Judaism, in the Orthodox view Matthew 23:38 is where the Holy Spirit leaves the Jews.

29: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30: saying, `If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31: Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32: Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
33: You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
34: Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town,
35: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.
36: Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation.
37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
38: Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.
39: For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
 
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All4Christ

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What do you all think about letting the Jews keep some of their traditions? All theology aside, there are some traditions such as Passover, the Shabbat, etc. which have very beautiful symbolism. My cousins live in Israel, so they showed us one of the ways that a Shabbat meal would be served. The added symbolism made the meal very special...and if I'm correct, the theology within the context of the meal itself does not conflict with Orthodox theology.
 
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Michael G

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Why keep the Old Law? It no longer stands, that is the reason we are Christians and not Jews. Christ fulfilled the Old Law and replaced it with the New Law. The Church already went through this debate in it's earliest stages. St. Peter wanted everyone who became Christian to first become a Jew and St. Paul insisted that those who were not Jews did not first need to become a Jew to be a Christian. Further, to celebrate the Passover Jewish style would be to say "We are still waiting for the Messiah." I am not waiting for the Messiah, he has already come and has established his Kingdom on Earth.
 
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countrymousenc

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All4Christ said:
What do you all think about letting the Jews keep some of their traditions? All theology aside, there are some traditions such as Passover, the Shabbat, etc. which have very beautiful symbolism. My cousins live in Israel, so they showed us one of the ways that a Shabbat meal would be served. The added symbolism made the meal very special...and if I'm correct, the theology within the context of the meal itself does not conflict with Orthodox theology.

The symbolism of which you speak can all be found (completed) within the liturgy and theology of the Orthodox Church. Pascha (called Easter in the west) is the fulfillment of Passover. Shabbat is truly realized in its full meaning in Christ, and there is no need to cling to incomplete traditions (types and shadows).

It is not that the theology represented in the old covenant practices contradicts Orthodoxy, but, again, that it is incomplete, and that the Church now celebrates all those things in their completed expression. Being Orthodox, btw, means not having time to do both! We stay very busy. :)
 
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Stone_Lock_Comanche

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YAWEH Coquered The Jewish law. He gave life to the jewish traditions, here is an example: When John the baptist was martyred jesus and his disciples went by boat to another shore of the sea. Once reaching the shore the people ran after them on the coast. And when landing a great multitude had gathered. Our Lord when seeing the crowd of people, had compassion on them they were all like sheep without a shepherd. He beagn his teachings and healings, every one was so zealous that no one noticed that the day was coming to an end. The Disciples came to jesus and said " this is an Isolated place, and the hour is now late send the people away to the villages so they may buy something to eat. However the Lord answered " They need not go away; you give them something to eat. The disciple said (in short) we have no food and we can only buy a small amount with 2 hundred denarii, there is a boy with five barley loaves and 2 fishes but that is not sufficient to fed the multitude.
The Lord said, " bring them here to me," and directed the disciples to seat the people in groups of hundreds and fifties. Then Jesus took the five loaves and 2 fishes blessed them, broke them, and gave to the disciples to spread among the people.
They all ate and were satisfied. When they were filled, Jesus said to his disciples, " Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost." They took what was left over and filled twelve baskets full. Those who ate were Five Thousand men, Not counting the women and children.
Now what does this teach us about the Coming of our Lord and his fulfilling of the law? What do the fishes and Loaves represent? Jesus came here to bring life and meaning to the law. The Five loaves represent the 5 books of moses and it showes that they were inadequate in filling the people. Our Lord came here to bring life and meaning to the oldtestement so by the power and teachings of Christ the loaves became sufficient in feeding the multitude of people.
Our Lord fed the 5 thousand men with five loaves and their were left overs as it says to fill 12 baskets full. These baskets represent the 12 apostles and they fed the people with the same Loaves and fishes: That is the gospel of Christ Our King and Our God. SO this shows the impotence of the Old Law and that a Redemer was needed to make the Oldtestement teachings full of grace and life, to be able to feed the multitudes which have gathered up to our present time.
 
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Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

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Stone_Lock_Comanche said:
YAWEH Coquered The Jewish law. He gave life to the jewish traditions, here is an example: When John the baptist was martyred jesus and his disciples went by boat to another shore of the sea. Once reaching the shore the people ran after them on the coast. And when landing a great multitude had gathered. Our Lord when seeing the crowd of people, had compassion on them they were all like sheep without a shepherd. He beagn his teachings and healings, every one was so zealous that no one noticed that the day was coming to an end. The Disciples came to jesus and said " this is an Isolated place, and the hour is now late send the people away to the villages so they may buy something to eat. However the Lord answered " They need not go away; you give them something to eat. The disciple said (in short) we have no food and we can only buy a small amount with 2 hundred denarii, there is a boy with five barley loaves and 2 fishes but that is not sufficient to fed the multitude.
The Lord said, " bring them here to me," and directed the disciples to seat the people in groups of hundreds and fifties. Then Jesus took the five loaves and 2 fishes blessed them, broke them, and gave to the disciples to spread among the people.
They all ate and were satisfied. When they were filled, Jesus said to his disciples, " Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost." They took what was left over and filled twelve baskets full. Those who ate were Five Thousand men, Not counting the women and children.
Now what does this teach us about the Coming of our Lord and his fulfilling of the law? What do the fishes and Loaves represent? Jesus came here to bring life and meaning to the law. The Five loaves represent the 5 books of moses and it showes that they were inadequate in filling the people. Our Lord came here to bring life and meaning to the oldtestement so by the power and teachings of Christ the loaves became sufficient in feeding the multitude of people.
Our Lord fed the 5 thousand men with five loaves and their were left overs as it says to fill 12 baskets full. These baskets represent the 12 apostles and they fed the people with the same Loaves and fishes: That is the gospel of Christ Our King and Our God. SO this shows the impotence of the Old Law and that a Redemer was needed to make the Oldtestement teachings full of grace and life, to be able to feed the multitudes which have gathered up to our present time.
That's awesome, Stone!!!:clap: I've never heard that interpretation of that scripture before!
 
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Michael G

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countrymousenc said:
The symbolism of which you speak can all be found (completed) within the liturgy and theology of the Orthodox Church. Pascha (called Easter in the west) is the fulfillment of Passover. Shabbat is truly realized in its full meaning in Christ, and there is no need to cling to incomplete traditions (types and shadows).

It is not that the theology represented in the old covenant practices contradicts Orthodoxy, but, again, that it is incomplete, and that the Church now celebrates all those things in their completed expression. Being Orthodox, btw, means not having time to do both! We stay very busy. :)

Very well said!
 
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SaintGeorge

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Now what does this teach us about the Coming of our Lord and his fulfilling of the law? What do the fishes and Loaves represent? Jesus came here to bring life and meaning to the law. The Five loaves represent the 5 books of moses and it showes that they were inadequate in filling the people. Our Lord came here to bring life and meaning to the oldtestement so by the power and teachings of Christ the loaves became sufficient in feeding the multitude of people.
Our Lord fed the 5 thousand men with five loaves and their were left overs as it says to fill 12 baskets full. These baskets represent the 12 apostles and they fed the people with the same Loaves and fishes: That is the gospel of Christ Our King and Our God. SO this shows the impotence of the Old Law and that a Redemer was needed to make the Oldtestement teachings full of grace and life, to be able to feed the multitudes which have gathered up to our present time.


Wow. Did you take analytical English in college? Great interpretation. But still, why would you want to be free of such a beautiful law that was perfected and fulfilled, not abolished, by our Messiah?
 
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