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Is Men Not Reading, Badly Affecting Society???

Stephen3141

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I'm not into articles that use words like "viral", etc.

But, there are serious failures among men, in American society.
And, the strong trend that men do not choose to read, and especially,
do not read novels, is doubtless contributing to the seriously declining
achievements of men in some areas of American society, in contrast to
women.

Note (not in the article), men comprise about 40% of new college admissions,
while women are 60%. In this time of high tech jobs, that do not require a man
to be all bulked up and do physical construction work, the result is that women
are getting about 70% of the "soft" tech jobs (such as lab jobs, and healthcare
jobs), compared to men.

But, this article speculates that it is men's habits of NOT reading (especially novels),
that is leading to a destructive "manosphere" culture where men feel comfortable,
but are not prepared to live in a healthy way with women.

This concern has been active among Christian congregations, for multiple
generations. But, the APATHY of the electronic screen generations, has not
seriously come up with alternatives for boys. That is alternatives to violent
1st shooter games, and the availability of porn. Sorry, but I agree with many
Christian men, that church activities have more of the feeling of the Girl Scouts,
than serious adult places where Christian men may find community.

The problem deteriorates into a vulnerability of Christian men, to "manly"
alternate cultures where men load up with assault rifles, live in caves, and
start to treat women as, well just property. This would be the "Christian"
equivalent of jihadist Islamic groups, that appeal to men with the same
dangles.

Although American Evangelicals (and Catholics) may deny that they have a
problem with creating a manly culture, look at all the pastors/teachers who show up
in Golf Club sweaters, and Gronkowski shoes. Where are the solid teaching skills,
in these country club boys? How many of Christ's original Apostles would have
hired any of these guys, for day work?

America, and Christian America, have serious problems providing men with a
workable, and healthy spirituality. And, that includes the failure of men to
read.
 

Maria Billingsley

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I'm not into articles that use words like "viral", etc.

But, there are serious failures among men, in American society.
And, the strong trend that men do not choose to read, and especially,
do not read novels, is doubtless contributing to the seriously declining
achievements of men in some areas of American society, in contrast to
women.

Note (not in the article), men comprise about 40% of new college admissions,
while women are 60%. In this time of high tech jobs, that do not require a man
to be all bulked up and do physical construction work, the result is that women
are getting about 70% of the "soft" tech jobs (such as lab jobs, and healthcare
jobs), compared to men.

But, this article speculates that it is men's habits of NOT reading (especially novels),
that is leading to a destructive "manosphere" culture where men feel comfortable,
but are not prepared to live in a healthy way with women.

This concern has been active among Christian congregations, for multiple
generations. But, the APATHY of the electronic screen generations, has not
seriously come up with alternatives for boys. That is alternatives to violent
1st shooter games, and the availability of porn. Sorry, but I agree with many
Christian men, that church activities have more of the feeling of the Girl Scouts,
than serious adult places where Christian men may find community.

The problem deteriorates into a vulnerability of Christian men, to "manly"
alternate cultures where men load up with assault rifles, live in caves, and
start to treat women as, well just property. This would be the "Christian"
equivalent of jihadist Islamic groups, that appeal to men with the same
dangles.

Although American Evangelicals (and Catholics) may deny that they have a
problem with creating a manly culture, look at all the pastors/teachers who show up
in Golf Club sweaters, and Gronkowski shoes. Where are the solid teaching skills,
in these country club boys? How many of Christ's original Apostles would have
hired any of these guys, for day work?

America, and Christian America, have serious problems providing men with a
workable, and healthy spirituality. And, that includes the failure of men to
read.
What research was tapped into to write such a ridiculous article? The fall of the manosphere (a controversial term associated with harmful ideologies like misogyny, sexism, and even violence against women) is due to not reading novels??? Just plain nuts. But thanks for sharing.
Blessings
 
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PloverWing

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The article was mostly about how the statistics are dubious, and I don't have any better statistics to offer at the moment, so I don't have much to say about the numbers. (I also noted that one way readership was being measured was through book-buying -- but this ignores the existence of libraries. The last few fiction books my husband and I read were checked out of the local library.)

I agree, though, that many people are finding it difficult to form in-person communities. I think this is true across many demographics, but let's focus on men and boys for the moment, since that's the topic of this thread.

Since I have some influence in my congregation's planning (I'm on the vestry), I'm interested in your ideas about what makes church more welcoming to men and boys. You said:

Sorry, but I agree with many Christian men, that church activities have more of the feeling of the Girl Scouts, than serious adult places where Christian men may find community.

Can you elaborate on this observation? What kinds of church activities would you find inviting, as an adult man? What would make a church a serious adult place where you could find community?
 
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Stephen3141

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What research was tapped into to write such a ridiculous article? The fall of the manosphere (a controversial term associated with harmful ideologies like misogyny, sexism, and even violence against women) is due to not reading novels??? Just plain nuts. But thanks for sharing.
Blessings

It may seem weird to the younger generations, but for multiple generations in America, now,
there has been a degrading of language skills (connected to not reading, in general), and
there has been a constant criticism that NOT reading about the lives of other people (in
historical books, or in novels) has led to a common collapse of the younger generations to
appreciate the depth and complexity of human character (possible).

Young people in America may think that this is a ridiculous claim. But educators,
especially, and professionals in the mental health fields, have noticed this dropping
ability of the younger generations to sympathize with people with whom they disagree.
One reason for this, is that by NOT reading about the characters of people, many young
people have a collapsed idea of the possible motivations that other people may have,
for what they do.

Another associated topic, is the common shortening of attention span, in the younger
generations. Gamers, tend to have a very short attention span, that matches the response
time in their favorite games. But real life, requires hte discipline to develop a very long
attention span, that can pay attention and plan years in the future.
---------- ----------

This is a multi-generational trend, now. And so many young people, if they talk to
their parents about these topics, will find that their own parents are not conscious of the
decades-long trends. Parents who don't read aggressively, often produce kids who don't
know the value of reading books.

Your response, is a common one, on this topic.

That doesn't mean that your incredulity, is justified.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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It may seem weird to the younger generations, but for multiple generations in America, now,
there has been a degrading of language skills (connected to not reading, in general), and
there has been a constant criticism that NOT reading about the lives of other people (in
historical books, or in novels) has led to a common collapse of the younger generations to
appreciate the depth and complexity of human character (possible).

Young people in America may think that this is a ridiculous claim. But educators,
especially, and professionals in the mental health fields, have noticed this dropping
ability of the younger generations to sympathize with people with whom they disagree.
One reason for this, is that by NOT reading about the characters of people, many young
people have a collapsed idea of the possible motivations that other people may have,
for what they do.

Another associated topic, is the common shortening of attention span, in the younger
generations. Gamers, tend to have a very short attention span, that matches the response
time in their favorite games. But real life, requires hte discipline to develop a very long
attention span, that can pay attention and plan years in the future.
---------- ----------

This is a multi-generational trend, now. And so many young people, if they talk to
their parents about these topics, will find that their own parents are not conscious of the
decades-long trends. Parents who don't read aggressively, often produce kids who don't
know the value of reading books.

Your response, is a common one, on this topic.

That doesn't mean that your incredulity, is justified.
I am 65 .
 
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Stephen3141

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The article was mostly about how the statistics are dubious, and I don't have any better statistics to offer at the moment, so I don't have much to say about the numbers. (I also noted that one way readership was being measured was through book-buying -- but this ignores the existence of libraries. The last few fiction books my husband and I read were checked out of the local library.)

I agree, though, that many people are finding it difficult to form in-person communities. I think this is true across many demographics, but let's focus on men and boys for the moment, since that's the topic of this thread.

Since I have some influence in my congregation's planning (I'm on the vestry), I'm interested in your ideas about what makes church more welcoming to men and boys. You said:



Can you elaborate on this observation? What kinds of church activities would you find inviting, as an adult man? What would make a church a serious adult place where you could find community?

Your question is a serious question. But (your question) it is a marketting approach
(that is more for evangelism). My comments are more from the viewpoint of what
Christians ought to be, rather than how they could market a Christian lifestyle to the
average American.

And this is where things get difficult. I have not found ANY challenging activities
at local congregations (I'm talking about activities outside worship). There are
sometime entertainment activities. I have attended a lot of amateur "Bible
studies", but most have no one there with critical Bible study skills. What
I commonly find, is a lack of serious commitment among Christian men,
to create a very different (alternative) culture in America, and spend time in
that culture. "Lifestyle" may be a better word, than "culture".

This may seem amorphous, to younger American Christians.
"Why would I need an alternative lifestyle?"
My answer is that (in opposition to some American Christians), I simply cannot
see American culture as Christian.

I ask over and over again, "Where is the People of God?"

Frankly, sharing a worship liturgy with a bunch of people, does not mean that
I know where the People of God are. And, this certainly is not producing an
alternative culture and lifestyle, to the current pagan American culture.
(That, is a controversial statement, among some Christian groups.)
We DO NOT LIVE THE CHRISTIAN LIFE, WITHIN A CHURCH BUILDING.
We must live a Christian life, substantially, in the presence of other Christians.
If we cannot understand this, then I would say that we no longer have any idea
what the phrase "People of God" means.
---------- ----------

As for being "welcoming to men and boys", this is a difficult question, over many
different Christian groups. ...

1. The common shared liturgy of Christianity, over the first 1,000 years, is pretty
standard. This would be a "high church" order of service, and would contain
many of the elements that you saw in the funeral service of Jimmy Carter, at
the National Cathedral. High church Christians would recognize the elements of a
common liturgy used by high church Protestants, and Roman Catholics, and the
Eastern Orthodox, and high church Protestant groups.

This form of high church liturgy, is neutral to your question, although the high
church theologies regularly only allow men to serve as priests, and officiate in
liturgies.

2 What I would focus on, is activities that I would call "regular Christian life", and
whether or not that engages men and boys. These would be activities outside
of the worship service, and not particularly happening in church buildings or
on a church property (unless the congregation has a lot of resources).

North American Christians need to take aspects of non-Christian lifestyle, and
change them into Christian activities heavily taking place among Christians. Such
as...

Take the 2-3 hours a day that kids live on social media, and offer completely
different activities. Activities should be skill centered, or health centered,
and should be in a group setting (not individual pursuits).

Serious skills that fall into the arena of a Christian education, are prime
targets...

Reading skills
Writing skills
Critical thinking skills
Tutoring in school subjects

But there are many other life skills, that need to be developed...

Physical exercise
Everyone should learn basic cooking skills
How to make and keep a schedule
How to plan for a future career job
Managing money

I think that Christian congregations ought to offer professional quality
teaching of critical Bible study skills. This includes

Biblical Greek (I don't think that Hebrew is so important)
Formal logic, and how biblical authors reason
An introduction to Moral-Ethical models, and which ones have components
that are compatible with Christianity
Professional reference guides to biblical Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic.
(I would leave the topic of commentaries, alone.)
---------- ----------

Critical Bible study skills (even an introduction to what the biblical languages
are like, and what the world-class reference tools for biblical languages are),
produce a basic foundation for developping biblical literacy. Without these
objective skills, individuals tend to parrot the commentaries that are popular,
without having the ability to evaluate the quality of the commentaries.
---------- ----------

The problem of not having competent teachers, is recursive.

"We don't have teachers, who can teach these subjects."
You don't have competent teachers, because you had no pipeline to
develop competent teachers.

"We don't have men and boys who are interested in learning
serious life skills."
This is a problem involving how evangelism is done. Is your evangelism
calling men and boys OUT OF the pagan American lifestyle? Why do you accept
men and boys in your congregation, is they are not willing to leave the pagan
American lifestyle?

And that, is the problem of the intellectual decay of North American
Christianity, over a number of generations.
---------- ----------

The importance of reading, and reading skills, is that they open up
possibilities that we, personally, have never seen, and never personally
experienced. That is, reading Christian classics, can introduce the younger
American generations to a Christian lifestyle, that they have never seen, in
their current Christian congregation.

There is much more that should be said about this topic.
 
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JustaPewFiller

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A lot to unpack here.

You touch on an issue with root causes in many parts of society; the education system, parents / upbringing, changing societal norms, tech and last but not least, the church.

I don't know any one solution. I may be wrong, but my gut tells me it starts with parents, education and the church.

Let me share a story. This occurred over a decade ago. My neighbor had 2 sons, 13 and 16. My neighbor also discovered he had terminal cancer. He made a request of me shortly before his death. He asked me, "Teach my boys." I asked, "Sure, but do you want me to teach them." He replied, "Teach them how to be guys. They don't know how to the things they will need in life."

He was right.

They were not bad kids. Just clueless because they had never been taught. Naturally there was some pushback from them at first. But soon they were contacting me when they needed help with various things. Life skills like time management, planning, decision making, etc. But aside from that I was flabbergasted by how little they knew about day to day things I knew when I was their age. Like how to check the oil mower and put air in its tires, how to use a rake to rake the lawn, how to cut a board or nail two boards together, how to take care of their bicycles, etc.

They really aren't going to learn that in school. Though it is unrelated to any biblical study, they might learn it through hanging around with men from church if the men are wiling to teach them. But, skills like that need a male father figure / mentor willing to get involved and that is often lacking in today's world.

The church certainly plays a part. But I know a young man in our church who is in his 20's now. He can quote scripture all day long, but he but he doesn't how to manage his finances, or keep his car running, and has issues with personal hygiene.
 
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PloverWing

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@Stephen3141 : Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I like some of your ideas.

I'm thinking not so much of marketing and evangelism, but, rather, removing unnecessary barriers. If a parish is making choices that make men feel unwelcome -- not choices that are a core part of Christian faith and practice, but incidental choices like selecting the time of day for meetings or choosing what books to read together -- then that's worth paying attention to.

Liturgy, of course, I'm on board with, and it's nice to hear that liturgical worship doesn't drive men away. The funeral service for Jimmy Carter is exactly my Episcopal Church's burial liturgy. (I note that my church allows female clergy, as we saw with Bishop Budde, for example.)

I also like the idea of solid, scholarly Bible study happening in church, and I very much like the idea of parishes teaching New Testament Greek. This may be a challenge for small parishes, but perhaps it could be offered in large parishes, or parishes near universities, or at the diocesan level (Zoom?).

I don't entirely get the gendered aspect of these ideas -- it seems they'd appeal to lots of church members, not just the men -- but they're good ideas.
 
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mindlight

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I'm not into articles that use words like "viral", etc.

But, there are serious failures among men, in American society.
And, the strong trend that men do not choose to read, and especially,
do not read novels, is doubtless contributing to the seriously declining
achievements of men in some areas of American society, in contrast to
women.

Note (not in the article), men comprise about 40% of new college admissions,
while women are 60%. In this time of high tech jobs, that do not require a man
to be all bulked up and do physical construction work, the result is that women
are getting about 70% of the "soft" tech jobs (such as lab jobs, and healthcare
jobs), compared to men.

But, this article speculates that it is men's habits of NOT reading (especially novels),
that is leading to a destructive "manosphere" culture where men feel comfortable,
but are not prepared to live in a healthy way with women.

This concern has been active among Christian congregations, for multiple
generations. But, the APATHY of the electronic screen generations, has not
seriously come up with alternatives for boys. That is alternatives to violent
1st shooter games, and the availability of porn. Sorry, but I agree with many
Christian men, that church activities have more of the feeling of the Girl Scouts,
than serious adult places where Christian men may find community.

The problem deteriorates into a vulnerability of Christian men, to "manly"
alternate cultures where men load up with assault rifles, live in caves, and
start to treat women as, well just property. This would be the "Christian"
equivalent of jihadist Islamic groups, that appeal to men with the same
dangles.

Although American Evangelicals (and Catholics) may deny that they have a
problem with creating a manly culture, look at all the pastors/teachers who show up
in Golf Club sweaters, and Gronkowski shoes. Where are the solid teaching skills,
in these country club boys? How many of Christ's original Apostles would have
hired any of these guys, for day work?

America, and Christian America, have serious problems providing men with a
workable, and healthy spirituality. And, that includes the failure of men to
read.

Men read and also watch films so there is a literary input. Men's motivation in reading or watching is usually functional for work or just to chill. So they will access YouTube explaining how to do something or Google direct questions and read the explanations. What has been lost is the time and motivation to read the whole book and have that imprinted on the brain.

So the problem here is deeper than a simple loss of the habit of reading novels. Educators no longer convey the value of the humanities to men. Theology, History, and Literature have become marginalized, corrupted, or coopted by a woke agenda and are no longer attractive to men. Gone are the heroic stories of adventure and heroism that used to stir male readers, now the school curriculum is a never-ending assault on male identity. Women go to university to be indoctrinated in this new agenda. Corporations want useful workers with a functional focus, wage slaves not people who try and connect their work to a deeper sense of reality and righteousness.

The church's response to the situation is often merely a cultural one. Churches have become more attractive to women because the culture as a whole is no longer accommodating men. Men retreat into their bubbles or fake masculinity (often carefully concealed from bosses and wives) because the "real" world is no longer satisfying. The gender divide grows and the world falls apart.
 
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Stephen3141

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@Stephen3141 : Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I like some of your ideas.

I'm thinking not so much of marketing and evangelism, but, rather, removing unnecessary barriers. If a parish is making choices that make men feel unwelcome -- not choices that are a core part of Christian faith and practice, but incidental choices like selecting the time of day for meetings or choosing what books to read together -- then that's worth paying attention to.

Liturgy, of course, I'm on board with, and it's nice to hear that liturgical worship doesn't drive men away. The funeral service for Jimmy Carter is exactly my Episcopal Church's burial liturgy. (I note that my church allows female clergy, as we saw with Bishop Budde, for example.)

I also like the idea of solid, scholarly Bible study happening in church, and I very much like the idea of parishes teaching New Testament Greek. This may be a challenge for small parishes, but perhaps it could be offered in large parishes, or parishes near universities, or at the diocesan level (Zoom?).

I don't entirely get the gendered aspect of these ideas -- it seems they'd appeal to lots of church members, not just the men -- but they're good ideas.

I agree that the suggestions that I had are not particularly "gendered".
That is the problem with an article that picks out men, who do not read, without
including women, who do not read.

But, I think that it's worth noting that the gendered aspect of activities that should
NOT be gendered, is part of the problem. 60% of people going to college, are women.
About 70% of people getting soft tech jobs, are women. In all the huzzah to correct
American misogyny, men and boys have been left behind, in the regular promotional
activity.

You're right about individual congregations perhaps not having resources to offer....
But, I'm talking about the People of God. I'm talking about ALL congregations that
recognize the biblical language of "our lord and theirs"!! Christian schools, or
activities don't have to be DENOMINATIONAL! That bell ought to be ringing,
loudly and clearly! In a city such as Tucson, there are plenty of skilled people who
could teach tech courses from a Christian point of view. And, there are plenty of
congregations that have buildings to host these activities.

What IS NEEDED, is Christian parents who feel an acute vacuum of activities
available for Christian men and boys, and who have the vision to look over the
trends in the last 4 American generations, and simply conclude

"We cannot let this continue!"

I'm not talking about rocket science, and I'm not talking about hard theology
from a denominational viewpoint. I'm talking about finding useful activities
that are better than a kid (or parent) surfing social media sites, or streaming
entertainment, 3 hours a day. Finding those activities, is not rocket science.
(The difficulty is persuading adults to engage -- not finding activities.)

---------- ----------

This is a difficult topic. It doesn't fit, quite, into an "activity" that most church
managers have, in their mind. But (I assert that) the disintigration of American society
has gone so far, that basic skills of living must be addressed, before there can be
useful "catechism" (to use a high church word).

(I have tried to team teach a catechism course for 12-13 year kids. 60% of them
did not have an attention span over 30 seconds. Many did not have the language skills
to understand basic concepts about the People of God in the Bible. Most, did not
know what books were, and were visibly looking for some type of entertainment.
Most could not apply logical thinking to talking about basic Christian concepts.
Almost none of them knew how to take notes, so could not remember material
presented the week before. A good number, had no idea how to have a conversation
with an adult. These problems do not deal with rocket science -- these are basic
societal dysfunctions that should not have to be fixed, in a catechism class.

And, these basic societal dysfunctions exist in lay adults, also. Along with
abyssmal biblical illiteracy.)
---------- ----------

What I am proposing, is offering Christian laypeople an opportunity to engage
(or discover) historical modes of Christian living and experience.

What I am trying to do for the topic of formal logic, in the book Christian Logic,
I think needs to be done for regular life, by Christian congregations.
 
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Stephen3141

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Men read and also watch films so there is a literary input. Men's motivation in reading or watching is usually functional for work or just to chill. So they will access YouTube explaining how to do something or Google direct questions and read the explanations. What has been lost is the time and motivation to read the whole book and have that imprinted on the brain.

So the problem here is deeper than a simple loss of the habit of reading novels. Educators no longer convey the value of the humanities to men. Theology, History, and Literature have become marginalized, corrupted, or coopted by a woke agenda and are no longer attractive to men. Gone are the heroic stories of adventure and heroism that used to stir male readers, now the school curriculum is a never-ending assault on male identity. Women go to university to be indoctrinated in this new agenda. Corporations want useful workers with a functional focus, wage slaves not people who try and connect their work to a deeper sense of reality and righteousness.

The church's response to the situation is often merely a cultural one. Churches have become more attractive to women because the culture as a whole is no longer accommodating men. Men retreat into their bubbles or fake masculinity (often carefully concealed from bosses and wives) because the "real" world is no longer satisfying. The gender divide grows and the world falls apart.

I basically, disagree with you.

In a book, an author can spend 5 pages describing what a character is THINKING. This is
a mode of communication, that a film does not have.

A lot of people, have not thought about this.
 
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Stephen3141

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I am 65 .

Well, congratulations.
You aren't in the "younger generations" that I am maiinly speaking about.

But, you are old enough to (perhaps) have watched the disintegration of
moral values, and thinking abilities, in the "younger generations".
 
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Stephen3141

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What research was tapped into to write such a ridiculous article? The fall of the manosphere (a controversial term associated with harmful ideologies like misogyny, sexism, and even violence against women) is due to not reading novels??? Just plain nuts. But thanks for sharing.
Blessings

Although this article is not one of those academic statistics articles, there
are LOT of articles laying out the decreasing language skills of younger
Americans, and the mental health problems of the "electronic screen"
generations, and the almost total lack of reading in the electronic screen
generations.

I don't think that Americans can reasonably argue that the lack of reading
by the younger generations, has NOT badly affected their skill levels.

And, the article is not addressing men not reading, in correlation with the
ascendancy of feminism. Not everything is about feminism. And, this
article is not about feminism.
 
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Malleeboy

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My experience is that English departments at schools have a bias towards books that are more popular with females, this is the same from my schooling and both my sons schooling.

SciFi, Humour, History, War books are generally not read at schools. If there doing Shakespeare they do R&J, not H V or Macbeth.

I read veraciously in High School, but the books I read were never the books we studied in school. I would read. Tolkien, Doc Smith, Asimov, Clarke, Pratchett, Dostoyevsky, Dickens, John Christopher (I loved apocalyptic future books), Stoker. Always had a pile of 6 to 8 books next to bed, some to read to slowly and ponder, some to binge read. Both my sons have large piles of books (my wife never reads) but the books we read aren't the books school's study.
 
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Stephen3141

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My experience is that English departments at schools have a bias towards books that are more popular with females, this is the same from my schooling and both my sons schooling.

SciFi, Humour, History, War books are generally not read at schools. If there doing Shakespeare they do R&J, not H V or Macbeth.

I read veraciously in High School, but the books I read were never the books we studied in school. I would read. Tolkien, Doc Smith, Asimov, Clarke, Pratchett, Dostoyevsky, Dickens, John Christopher (I loved apocalyptic future books), Stoker. Always had a pile of 6 to 8 books next to bed, some to read to slowly and ponder, some to binge read. Both my sons have large piles of books (my wife never reads) but the books we read aren't the books school's study.

Very interesting observation.

When I look thorugh the new book table at the big Barnes and Noble, I see

-- sad girl novels
-- how to make a new business succeed
-- murder mysteries
-- "diverse" culture and struggles books
-- political trash conspiracy theory books.

None of these common templates are deep character studies. And none of
them are what I would call great literature. I don't see men and boys hanging
around these offerings. this is the reactionary-feminist-diversity virtue
flashing genres.

Reading through the FB site for reading groups, almost ALL the posts are by
women. Almost all the books are sad-girl novels or murder mysteries. You'll
have a hard time finding any reading group reading books before Lady Gaga.

In the FB site for Authors Promoting Their Books, the genres are the same.
And, there are manga-style books.

In the Religion section of Barnes and Noble, there is some history of religion
books. But most "Christian" books are "devotional", and frankly, I can't stand
this genre. You can't find the world-class Greek NT reference book, Arndt/Bauer/
Gingrich/Danker, or a koine Greek grammar. Finally, the store installed a foot of
C.S. Lewis' books. It is always women, who wander through the Religion section.

Frankly, the Religion/Christian section is an embarassment to me. Even though
it is probably 60 feet of bookshelves.

It follows that the "Bible studies" that I have attended, are also an embarassmentto me.
They are usually based on devotional books, that are poorly grounded in Scripture, and
are taught by people who do not have critical Bible study skills. There is little tolerance
for Bible studies that deal directly with NT theological teaching, taken from across the
entirety of the New Testament, and grounded in the Greek vocabulary.

When was the last time when you heard a pastor/teacher pull out Psalm 136, as a prime
example of how the Old Testament presents the topic of "grace" (even though the
refrain, "for his kindness/mercy endures forever" is based on the Hebrew word that is
the equivalent to the NT xaris/sarizomai)??? God killing the firstborn of the Egyptians.
God drowhing pharaoh's army in the Red Sea. God killing the pagan kings in the land
of Canaan. For his love endures forever.

I would say that there is increasingly little tolerance for a muscular, biblical faith, that
the Bible presents. And, I think, that leaves little room for men and boys who see real
evil in the world, but have no Christian template for what a muscular righteousness
looks like.
---------- ----------
Currently, I see the trends in the far right, following the vacuum left by orthodox
Christian teaching, in North America. Violent, lawless lynch mobs, are more attractive
to them than whatever is being taught in Christian congregations.

I see the inability/will of North American Christian congregations, to present biblical
teaching about gender roles, as tied up in the problem of men and boys not reading,
and not being attracted to the feminist remake of American culture.

Unfortunately, many Christian women cannot imagine any other world, than the
American feminism. And unfortunately, many Christian men have never seen any
template for manhood, other than the ignorant and assertive models in movies.

It's a perfect storm of dysfunction.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Very interesting observation.

When I look thorugh the new book table at the big Barnes and Noble, I see

-- sad girl novels
-- how to make a new business succeed
-- murder mysteries
-- "diverse" culture and struggles books
-- political trash conspiracy theory books.

None of these common templates are deep character studies. And none of
them are what I would call great literature. I don't see men and boys hanging
around these offerings. this is the reactionary-feminist-diversity virtue
flashing genres.

You think "how to make a business succeed" and "political trash conspiracy theory" are "reactionary feminist diversity virtue flashing" genres?

Of the five you listed, I would put those two as being aimed squarely at men, especially the political one.


In the Religion section of Barnes and Noble, there is some history of religion
books. But most "Christian" books are "devotional", and frankly, I can't stand
this genre. You can't find the world-class Greek NT reference book, Arndt/Bauer/
Gingrich/Danker, or a koine Greek grammar.

Barnes and Noble is a generalist bookstore, not a specialty store. They don't carry much in the way of in depth studies on any subject. It's not unlike shopping for bicycles at Wal-Mart - you'll find something good enough for your kid to ride back and forth to school, but if you want to develop it into a serious hobby, you'll have to look elsewhere.


It follows that the "Bible studies" that I have attended, are also an embarassmentto me.
They are usually based on devotional books, that are poorly grounded in Scripture, and
are taught by people who do not have critical Bible study skills. There is little tolerance
for Bible studies that deal directly with NT theological teaching, taken from across the
entirety of the New Testament, and grounded in the Greek vocabulary.

Maybe you're just hanging with the wrong people. I think something like that would go over pretty well at my church, though our bible studies tending to fork off of whatever sermon series the pastor is doing.

When was the last time when you heard a pastor/teacher pull out Psalm 136, as a prime
example of how the Old Testament presents the topic of "grace" (even though the
refrain, "for his kindness/mercy endures forever" is based on the Hebrew word that is
the equivalent to the NT xaris/sarizomai)??? God killing the firstborn of the Egyptians.
God drowhing pharaoh's army in the Red Sea. God killing the pagan kings in the land
of Canaan. For his love endures forever.

I would say that there is increasingly little tolerance for a muscular, biblical faith, that
the Bible presents. And, I think, that leaves little room for men and boys who see real
evil in the world, but have no Christian template for what a muscular righteousness
looks like.
---------- ----------
Currently, I see the trends in the far right, following the vacuum left by orthodox
Christian teaching, in North America. Violent, lawless lynch mobs, are more attractive
to them than whatever is being taught in Christian congregations.

I see the inability/will of North American Christian congregations, to present biblical
teaching about gender roles, as tied up in the problem of men and boys not reading,
and not being attracted to the feminist remake of American culture.

Unfortunately, many Christian women cannot imagine any other world, than the
American feminism. And unfortunately, many Christian men have never seen any
template for manhood, other than the ignorant and assertive models in movies.

It's a perfect storm of dysfunction.

Why does being "masculine" have to equate to this perception of being violent ToughGuy?

I agree completely that a lot of modern North American Evangelical Christianity is lacking in some important ways. What I don't get is why the blame is directed at feminism. One of the central tenets of feminism is that women ought to have the freedom to lead their own lives and have their own careers - it's women taking charge for themselves and leading and doing things, which seems to me to be the exact attitude that you (and others) describe as "masculine" and wish that men were more proactive in pursuing.

Men may very well be restless and looking for something to do, some sort of hero's journey that can be challenging and satisfying, but 1.) that's largely a myth - real life is much more of a constant grind; and 2.) it's not feminism preventing a guy from embarking on some pursuit.
 
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Stephen3141

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You think "how to make a business succeed" and "political trash conspiracy theory" are "reactionary feminist diversity virtue flashing" genres?

Of the five you listed, I would put those two as being aimed squarely at men, especially the political one.




Barnes and Noble is a generalist bookstore, not a specialty store. They don't carry much in the way of in depth studies on any subject. It's not unlike shopping for bicycles at Wal-Mart - you'll find something good enough for your kid to ride back and forth to school, but if you want to develop it into a serious hobby, you'll have to look elsewhere.




Maybe you're just hanging with the wrong people. I think something like that would go over pretty well at my church, though our bible studies tending to fork off of whatever sermon series the pastor is doing.



Why does being "masculine" have to equate to this perception of being violent ToughGuy?

I agree completely that a lot of modern North American Evangelical Christianity is lacking in some important ways. What I don't get is why the blame is directed at feminism. One of the central tenets of feminism is that women ought to have the freedom to lead their own lives and have their own careers - it's women taking charge for themselves and leading and doing things, which seems to me to be the exact attitude that you (and others) describe as "masculine" and wish that men were more proactive in pursuing.

Men may very well be restless and looking for something to do, some sort of hero's journey that can be challenging and satisfying, but 1.) that's largely a myth - real life is much more of a constant grind; and 2.) it's not feminism preventing a guy from embarking on some pursuit.

My point about the Barnes and Noble New Books table, was to underline
the limited genres that are POPULAR with those who read, not to try to assert
that they are all relevant to this thread.

B&N also has a textbook section. But these do not include novels.

I think that North American Christians have confused non-Christian feminism,
with the topic of freedom. For a couple of decades, Christian authors have spoken
about the "feminization of Christianity" (which is quite different than the topic of
male abuse...).

It is a false disjunction (as an argument), to implicitly present the options

"Either you accept the standard American version of feminism, OR
you are an abusive male...."

There are many other options. I reject the secular American feminism, and
also reject the fake masculinity of the far right.


The problem remains. I don't see American Christian men and boys, presented
with historic, Christian modes of living.
 
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iluvatar5150

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For a couple of decades, Christian authors have spoken
about the "feminization of Christianity"
I'm aware. I also think they're mostly full of it.


It is a false disjunction (as an argument), to implicitly present the options

"Either you accept the standard American version of feminism, OR
you are an abusive male...."

There are many other options. I reject the secular American feminism, and
also reject the fake masculinity of the far right.


The problem remains. I don't see American Christian men and boys, presented
with historic, Christian modes of living.
I don't think I've even come across a full-fledged definition of what this sort of masculinity is supposed to look like. I'm still open to hearing them, but IME, it usually boils down to some sort of desire for control, which is what I think dominated a lot of American Christianity prior to this supposed feminization.
 
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