Is Mary the Mother of the Church or of all Christians?

[Hazelelponi]

In 1 Corinthians 15:22, Paul argues that "as in Adam all die, so inChrist all will be made alive," while in verse 45 he calls Jesus the "last/ultimate/final Adam".

Try reading the New Testament a bit more closely...

He didn't say last Adam, he said Jesus is the "new Adam" adding that that made Mary the new Eve (as if she is wife to Christ")

The poster in question is just making stuff up. We are made alive in Christ because He is Lord and Savior.. He is the ultimate man, because He is God made flesh...

Mary is not our mother - she is mother to our Lord and Savior. Sarah is mother to the church.

We don't make stuff up as we go, or take things out of context to engage in goddess worship. Those who do, have nothing in common with those who don't. .

Jesus gave Mary no special place of veneration.. so neither do we..

 

[Philip_B]

Referring to where I obtained the information.

You may need to do a little more research as to how this came about. You could start by looking at Wikipedia on the Council of Ephesus 435 and the Nestorian issue which sparked the council.

I don't know that is all that helpful to speak of the Catholic Church as a separate entity much before the mutual excommunications of 1054.

 

[GingerBeer]

Regardless if you believe the Catholic or the Orthodox Church is the truth Church, is the Virgin Mary the Mother of all who profess the Nicene Creed, even if they don't venerate her?

I can see the reasoning for asserting that Mary is indeed the mother of all who are in Christ, it would go something like this:

1. Mary is the mother of the Saviour, Jesus Christ,
   
2. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church,
3. The Church is the body of Christ,
4. All who are in the body of Christ are in Christ,
5. Therefore Mary is the mother of all who are in Christ.

 

[aiki]

So God lied when the Angel called her "Blessed" and "Full of Grace"?

Did the angel call her "blessed" and "full of grace"? In Luke the angel says:

Luke 1:26-31 (NASB)
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,
27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

Luke 1:26-30 (KJV)
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luke 1:26-30 (YLT)
26 And in the sixth month was the messenger Gabriel sent by God, to a city of Galilee, the name of which is Nazareth,
27 to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name is Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin is Mary.
28 And the messenger having come in unto her, said, `Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;'
29 and she, having seen, was troubled at his word, and was reasoning of what kind this salutation may be.
30 And the messenger said to her, `Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God;

I don't see any "full of grace" in Gabriel's greeting to Mary. "Blessed," yes, but no "full of grace." In any case, Mary is not described by the angel as having done anything to warrant God's use of her. She is favoured and blessed because God chose her, not because she was particularly deserving of His choice.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I can see the reasoning for asserting that Mary is indeed the mother of all who are in Christ, it would go something like this:

1. Mary is the mother of the Saviour, Jesus Christ,
   
2. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church,
3. The Church is the body of Christ,
4. All who are in the body of Christ are in Christ,
5. Therefore Mary is the mother of all who are in Christ.

It would only make sense if Christ was the beginning of the faith and not it's fulfillment as Messiah.

Christ is not the beginning. ..

 

[Maria Billingsley]

You may need to do a little more research as to how this came about. You could start by looking at Wikipedia on the Council of Ephesus 435 and the Nestorian issue which sparked the council.

I don't know that is all that helpful to speak of the Catholic Church as a seperate entity much before the mutual wxcomunication of 1054.

Since we are chatting..I have a comment on Luke . I see Elizabeth referring to the "Son of God" and "God the Father" but not the Mother of God.

Mary Visits Elizabeth (Luke 1:39-45)
In those days Mary set out and went with haste to a Judean town in the hill country, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leapt in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed with a loud cry, ‘Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord ( Son of God Jesus) comes to me? For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leapt for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.’ (God the Father)

Also, keep in mind that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is of the order of Melchizedek

For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

 

[GingerBeer]

It would only make sense if Christ was the beginning of the faith and not it's fulfillment as Messiah.

Well, no. It makes sense exactly as it was stated. You don't get to change the way logic works just because your theology dislikes Mary.

Christ is not the beginning..

I am certain that Christ is in fact the beginning. Do you remember John 1:1. Doesn't it say that the Word was in the beginning ... but you stick with your theology, it must be really good if you are willing to contradict scripture for the sake of maintaining it.

we have to learn what led to Christ to follow Him. He is Rabbi...

Surely the Lord, Jesus Christ, is a bit more than Rabbi ...

we have to understand His teaching, His correction, His fulfillment of faith, to know what our salvation means..

We can't just pretend nothing mattered that came before and religion began at Christ. .

Back to the reasoning I mentioned before.

1. Mary is the mother of the Saviour, Jesus Christ,
   
2. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church,
3. The Church is the body of Christ,
4. All who are in the body of Christ are in Christ,
5. Therefore Mary is the mother of all who are in Christ.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Well, no. It makes sense exactly as it was stated. You don't get to change the way logic works just because your theology dislikes Mary.

I am certain that Christ is in fact the beginning. Do you remember John 1:1. Doesn't it say that the Word was in the beginning ... but you stick with your theology, it must be really good if you are willing to contradict scripture for the sake of maintaining it.

Surely the Lord, Jesus Christ, is a bit more than Rabbi ...


Back to the reasoning I mentioned before.

1. Mary is the mother of the Saviour, Jesus Christ,
   
2. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church,
3. The Church is the body of Christ,
4. All who are in the body of Christ are in Christ,
5. Therefore Mary is the mother of all who are in Christ.

I don't at all "dislike" Mary, I love her very much. But I won't give her place that God did not give in my worship, and I will not disagree with God's Holy Word in scripture in order to engage in Goddess worship.

Read Galatians.. it will help you understand what God said.

Our religion didn't begin at Christ the Messiah (the birth of). it didn't start there, as much you wish it did.

 

[GingerBeer]

I don't at all "dislike" Mary, I love her very much.

That's most reassuring. But it is your theology that appears to have a dislike for Mary since you're using it to dispute that there is a reasonable sense in which Mary is indeed the mother of all who are in Christ (see my earlier posts).

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Therefore Mary is the mother of all who are in Christ.

I am late on this thread but I don't see how Mary is my mother because I am in Christ. There is just no scriptural support for this. She is the mother of the Son of God , Jesus Christ of Nazareth only. She is in the Body of Christ as an equal. Once you elevate her from that status, she becomes a goddess. The Queen of Heaven.

 

[GingerBeer]

I am late on this thread but I don't see how Mary is my mother because I am in Christ.

It works like this, which I am sure that anybody can grasp if they try, Mary is the mother of Christ and Christians are in Christ therefore Mary is the mother of all who are in Christ. It isn't a difficult syllogism to follow.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am late on this thread but I don't see how Mary is my mother because I am in Christ. There is just no scriptural support for this. She is the mother of the Son of God , Jesus Christ of Nazareth only. She is in the Body of Christ as an equal. Once you elevate her from that status, she becomes a goddess. The Queen of Heaven.

Just a matter of information: Mary was a Pentecostal!!!
She was in the upper room with the other 119 disciples when the Holy Spirit fell on them, and she praised God in tongues and prophesied with the rest of them!!

 

[Chris V++]

So what are the spiritual consequences for Christians who choose to not venerate Mary or recognize her perpetual virginity?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So what are the spiritual or eternal consequences for Christians who choose to not venerate Mary or recognize her perpetual virginity?

Mary has a special place in the Kingdom of God because she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus. But it is idolatry to worship her as a goddess. Also, Jesus had brothers and sisters, and so Mary did not remain a virgin. I think a bit of common sense is needed to separate reality from fantasy. If I was the husband of a woman who wanted to remain a virgin and not consummate the marriage, I wouldn't be with her for very long. Also, it was a sign of God's disfavour if a Jewish woman didn't have a number of children. There is no record of Joseph divorcing Mary because the marriage was not consummated. I don't think he would, like any husband, be content to have a pseudo marriage where they would live together as brother and sister. It is interesting how religious fantasy devoids people of plain common sense and treats people as if their elevator wasn't going to the top!

The Scripture says that the marriage bed is not defiled. This means that a very saintly married person can be absolutely holy before God and enjoy the delights of the marriage bed at the same time! I'll bet the Mary and Joseph did while they were together!

(I'd be hung, drawn and quartered if I said that on the Catholic forum!)

 

[Hazelelponi]

That's most reassuring. But it is your theology that appears to have a dislike for Mary since you're using it to dispute that there is a reasonable sense in which Mary is indeed the mother of all who are in Christ (see my earlier posts).

I get my theology from scripture itself, not my mind or my desires..

The Bible does not give Mary the same place your giving her. She was a follower of Christ as much as we are. When someone spoke of Jesus' mother (indicating Mary) Jesus said:

And answering, He [Jesus] said to the one telling Him, "Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:47-50

Jesus gave her a place in the church, not a goddess figure. As already stated, she was there at Pentecost the same as the disciples.. she is part of the church, not "mother", not some sort of goddess figure.

In Galatians it is Sarah who is shown as the symbol of the New Covenant through Christ:

“For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:22-26).

Not Mary.

I'm not denigrating Mary, I'm just not open to giving her place God never gave her.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hey! If Mary spoke in tongues and prophesied on the Day of Pentecost with the other disciples, would you expect those who venerate Mary and pray to her and the saints (many of whom also spoke in tongues), should be doing the same in order to be her true followers? (Just askin')

 

[Athanasius377]

Did the angel call her "blessed" and "full of grace"? In Luke the angel says:

Luke 1:26-31 (NASB)
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,
27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

Luke 1:26-30 (KJV)
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Luke 1:26-30 (YLT)
26 And in the sixth month was the messenger Gabriel sent by God, to a city of Galilee, the name of which is Nazareth,
27 to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name is Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin is Mary.
28 And the messenger having come in unto her, said, `Hail, favoured one, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women;'
29 and she, having seen, was troubled at his word, and was reasoning of what kind this salutation may be.
30 And the messenger said to her, `Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God;

I don't see any "full of grace" in Gabriel's greeting to Mary. "Blessed," yes, but no "full of grace." In any case, Mary is not described by the angel as having done anything to warrant God's use of her. She is favoured and blessed because God chose her, not because she was particularly deserving of His choice.

Good point. It was a translation issue with the Latin Vulgate and one that even Erasmus knew was problematic when compared to the simple greeting in the Greek text.

From the Clementine Vulgate:
Ave gratia plena: Dominus tecum: benedicta tu in mulieribus.



Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. (UBS5)

The BDAG (P. 1081) entry for that form of the word states:
. . .in the angel’s greeting to Mary κεχαριτωμένη one who has been favored (by God) Lk 1:28

You could translate it Hail, (highly) favored one or Greetings graced one (grace meaning the recipient of God's freely bestowed and beneficent good will).

Even the Catholic NAB concedes the point and translates it this way:

28 And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

New American Bible. (2011). (Revised Edition, Lk 1:28). Washington, DC: The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

 

[Tomm]

Saint Louis de Montfort said those who have not Mary as mother, have not God as their father.

Doesn't this EXPLAIN a lot ???

 

[Maria Billingsley]

It works like this, which I am sure that anybody can grasp if they try, Mary is the mother of Christ and Christians are in Christ therefore Mary is the mother of all who are in Christ. It isn't a difficult syllogism to follow.

Actually what you are saying is that Mary is the Mother of the Body of Christ. Interesting but not scriptural. This leads to the divinity of Mary.
Blessings

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Just a matter of information: Mary was a Pentecostal!!!
She was in the upper room with the other 119 disciples when the Holy Spirit fell on them, and she praised God in tongues and prophesied with the rest of them!!

Yes understood! More the reason she is not elevated to a higher status than the rest of the Body of Christ.