Is Mary God?

[amariselle]

YOUR VIEW. YOUR OPINION. YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF CATHOLICISM!

I understand Catholicism far better than you think.

But, I also understand that simply suggesting someone "lacks knowledge" is far easier than addressing the real issues.

 

[Goatee]

I understand Catholicism far better than you think.

But, I also understand that simply suggesting someone "lacks knowledge" is far easier than addressing the real issues.

If you did understand Catholicism you would not be so confused.

 

[amariselle]

If you did understand Catholicism you would not be so confused.

I understand it. But that's fine. As I said, it's easier to just tell someone they don't know what they're talking about, rather than actually discussing the very valid issues.

The very fact that you choose not to address it and instead accuse me of ignorance, however, is quite telling.

As I said, your choice.

 

[Goatee]

I understand it. But that's fine. As I said, it's easier to just tell someone they don't know what they're talking about, rather than actually discussing the very valid issues.

The very fact that you choose not to address it and instead accuse me of ignorance, however, is quite telling.

As I said, your choice.

If you truly understood Catholicism you would not need to ask the questions you ask!

 

[amariselle]

Mary intercede for us to Jesus, just like at Cana

What happened at Cana does not justify or explain the prayers prayed to Mary and the unbiblical honour and praise given to her in the Catholic Church.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." - 1 Timothy 2:5

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." - Hebrews 7:25

 

[PeaceB]

I understand Catholicism far better than you think.

If you understand it so well why did you ask questions about what the Catholic Church teaches about very basic things such as idolatry and the relationship between Jesus's unique mediatorship and the Church's understanding of Mary as mediator? It is like someone saying "I understand math very well" and then asking "what is two times two?"

 

[amariselle]

I will give one final response to the OP, and then I'm done. I had hoped to have some honest and Biblical discussion with people on this thread, but I guess that isn't going to happen.

Someone here claims that when he/she was Catholic, they believed Mary to be a god.

I do not remember any official catholic documents making such claims.

There are unofficial catholic authors who go overboard on who Mary is, and are not recognized as being orthodox doctrine.

Many Catholics will deny that Mary is honoured and venerated/worshipped in ways that only the Triune a God should be. I encourage you and everyone else who has questions about this to do your research and most importantly, search the Scriptures.

God bless.

 

[amariselle]

If you understand it so well why did you ask questions about what the Catholic Church teaches about very basic things such as idolatry and the relationship between Jesus's unique mediatorship and the Church's understanding of Mary as mediator? It is like someone saying "I understand math very well" and then asking "what is two times two?"

I guess you missed the point entirely then (my wanting to actually discuss these things with Catholics).

Not surprising since you chose to focus on my personality and intellect instead of addressing my posts.

As I said, you've made it quite clear what you think of me. As such we are going nowhere with this.

God bless

 

[amariselle]

God bless everyone. I hope you all have a wonderful day! I'm out.

 

[Goatee]

What happened at Cana does not justify or explain the prayers prayed to Mary and the unbiblical honour and praise given to her in the Catholic Church.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." - 1 Timothy 2:5

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." - Hebrews 7:25

Again, YOUR OPINION!

 

[Goatee]

I guess you missed the point entirely then (my wanting to actually discuss these things with Catholics).

Not surprising since you chose to focus on my personality and intellect instead of addressing my posts.

As I said, you've made it quite clear what you think of me. As such we are going nowhere with this.

God bless

Yes, you are lost in YOUR understanding of Catholicism that's for sure.

Glad you can see that it is pointless you trying to convert us to YOUR way of thinking.

God bless you friend

 

[PeaceB]

I guess you missed the point entirely then (my wanting to actually discuss these things with Catholics).

Not surprising since you chose to focus on my personality and intellect instead of addressing my posts.

As I said, you've made it quite clear what you think of me. As such we are going nowhere with this.

God bless

You do not want to have a discussion. You want to prove to us that our practices are idolatrous, and have us admit the same. Any argument that we give you from Scripture, Tradition, or logic, will be rejected and protested against fiercely, and then you will restate your smug conclusions that we engage in idolatry. We have been through that series of events numerous times already with you, and you have made it very clear that your mind is closed on the matter. Thus, fruitful discussion with you will not occur. You just want to lure us back into a lengthy debate again. You have made that perfectly clear already.

So you can spare us the babe in the woods, "I just want to have a fruitful discussion among Christians" routine.

 

[Erose]

My experience has been that it is man who is always trying to justify his own actions by attempting to re-define Bible words and meanings so that he can do what he wants to do or what he has been told he can do.

I agree.

 

[Erose]

NO!

But they are bowing down. I thought you said that bowing down is worship?

 

[Goatee]

When they bowed down in front of the Ark or even the tent it was kept in they must have been worshiping them?

 

[Erose]

amariselle, I'll answer these questions for you.

Why then are there shrines built to honour her,

Well that is what we human beings do is it not? Have you ever been to Washington DC? Or for that matter other seats of government? Washington DC has monuments all over the place built to memorialize those giants in our history. We don't worship Abraham Lincoln, or George Washington, or even objects such as the Liberty Bell or the Constitution. We as a nation has memorized them because they are important to who we are as a nation. I should point out that when all of these things were erected the far majority of people in this country were Protestant.

churches named after her,

Don't we have cities, counties, villages, etc. named after war heroes, and societal giants?

and prayers said to her? (often before a statue/image)

Quite honestly not often before, as most people pray in their homes; anyway that being said two things: 1) We believe we can pray to Mary and the other Saints because we believe they are alive, and we believe that God gave them the power to hear our prayers. I think the confusion here with non-traditional Christians is that prayer and worship has become synonyms where traditionally they were (and still are) not. We see many instances in Scripture where men and women dialoguing with angels, and we even have an incidence at our Lord's transfiguration where He Himself is dialoguing with Moses and Elijah.

Now concerning before images and statues. Christians have long used images and statue, and other sacred art as focuses in prayer. Praying in a sacred place where not just the mind but also the eyes, ears, nose, etc are engaged makes prayer so much easier for so many of us. This I believe can be proven very easily.

Concerning sacred images and statues, they are held at a higher level of respect and honor than mundane objects because of the very fact that they are seen as tied to God. This isn't unique to Christians, but you also see the same in Judaism. When reading the Old Law, there was a lot of attention given to how to handle sacred objects appropriately.

Why has she been given such titles as, "Queen of Heaven" and "Mediatrix of All Graces"? (Even though we know she is not because the Bible clearly teaches that Christ alone is our Mediator)

I talk about the Mediatrix of all graces. First you are right Jesus Christ alone is the mediator between God and man. This we will not disagree with you. The question is what about between Christ and man? Many, many times we Christians are asked by either our fellow Christians or even those who aren't for prayers, to assist a family member that is extremely ill or injured, or going to a job interview, or many other things. Are we in these cases acting as mediators? Of course we are. Mary also acts as a mediator between Christ her Son and man. We have seen her in Scripture mediate between Christ and man at the wedding feast of Cana. We believe Mary is in heaven with her Son, and thus being His mother has a little bit more influence with Him than we do.

Even in St. James we read: 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

So we know that the righteous' prayers are more effective than others, straight from Scripture.

The second part "of all graces", this one requires an understand of who the Blessed Mother is. The question raised is where do all graces come from? From the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ right? But Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ and because of this one can say that "all graces" come from her because Jesus came from her. See the point here? So the title Mediatrix of All Graces actually says more about us human beings sharing in Mary's ministry of mediating for our fellow man before our Lord, and says more about her Son, by whom we receive all grace.

to say nothing of the title "Queen of Heaven" which, Scripture is clear is associated with paganism and idolatry (ancient goddess worship). God condemns such practice. A historical study of "Mother/Child worship" reveals the same. Such practice actually has its roots in ancient Babylon.

Alright Queen of Heaven. This requires one to understand the offices of the Davidic Kingdom, which Jesus comes from the line of Davidic Kings. In Israel the queen was not the wife of the king, for the king would have multiple wives. Rather the queen (or another title used queen mother) was the mother of the king, and her importance and authority in Israel was second only to the king. The office of queen mother and its establishment is attributed to King Solomon and is found in 1 Kings: 2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

So when we say Mary is the Queen of Heaven, we are also saying that Jesus her Son is King of Heaven. For if Mary is not queen of heaven then neither is Jesus king of heaven. Hopefully you see the point. The same applies to the title of Mother of God. If Mary is not the mother of God, then that means that Jesus is not God. They both go hand in hand, and you cannot separate either without falling into heresy.

Surely one can understand the objections many have to these practices in the Catholic Church.

I can understand. Americans and many modern folks don't bow to no one anymore. This is a custom that has ceased to exist in the modern world. In ancient and even just a few hundred years ago prostrating or bowing down yourself was common practice to display humility. Mankind has lost much of its humility, sadly.

Biblically Mary was never idolized or "venerated" in these ways, not even close. In fact, careful research reveals the true roots of this practice. Pagan Rome and ancient Babylon.

I don't know what you would call how St. Elizabeth attitude toward here in Luke 2.

 

[amariselle]

amariselle, I'll answer these questions for you.

Well that is what we human beings do is it not? Have you ever been to Washington DC? Or for that matter other seats of government? Washington DC has monuments all over the place built to memorialize those giants in our history. We don't worship Abraham Lincoln, or George Washington, or even objects such as the Liberty Bell or the Constitution. We as a nation has memorized them because they are important to who we are as a nation. I should point out that when all of these things were erected the far majority of people in this country were Protestant.

Don't we have cities, counties, villages, etc. named after war heroes, and societal giants?

Quite honestly not often before, as most people pray in their homes; anyway that being said two things: 1) We believe we can pray to Mary and the other Saints because we believe they are alive, and we believe that God gave them the power to hear our prayers. I think the confusion here with non-traditional Christians is that prayer and worship has become synonyms where traditionally they were (and still are) not. We see many instances in Scripture where men and women dialoguing with angels, and we even have an incidence at our Lord's transfiguration where He Himself is dialoguing with Moses and Elijah.

Now concerning before images and statues. Christians have long used images and statue, and other sacred art as focuses in prayer. Praying in a sacred place where not just the mind but also the eyes, ears, nose, etc are engaged makes prayer so much easier for so many of us. This I believe can be proven very easily.

Concerning sacred images and statues, they are held at a higher level of respect and honor than mundane objects because of the very fact that they are seen as tied to God. This isn't unique to Christians, but you also see the same in Judaism. When reading the Old Law, there was a lot of attention given to how to handle sacred objects appropriately.

I talk about the Mediatrix of all graces. First you are right Jesus Christ alone is the mediator between God and man. This we will not disagree with you. The question is what about between Christ and man? Many, many times we Christians are asked by either our fellow Christians or even those who aren't for prayers, to assist a family member that is extremely ill or injured, or going to a job interview, or many other things. Are we in these cases acting as mediators? Of course we are. Mary also acts as a mediator between Christ her Son and man. We have seen her in Scripture mediate between Christ and man at the wedding feast of Cana. We believe Mary is in heaven with her Son, and thus being His mother has a little bit more influence with Him than we do.

Even in St. James we read: 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

So we know that the righteous' prayers are more effective than others, straight from Scripture.

The second part "of all graces", this one requires an understand of who the Blessed Mother is. The question raised is where do all graces come from? From the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ right? But Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ and because of this one can say that "all graces" come from her because Jesus came from her. See the point here? So the title Mediatrix of All Graces actually says more about us human beings sharing in Mary's ministry of mediating for our fellow man before our Lord, and says more about her Son, by whom we receive all grace.

Alright Queen of Heaven. This requires one to understand the offices of the Davidic Kingdom, which Jesus comes from the line of Davidic Kings. In Israel the queen was not the wife of the king, for the king would have multiple wives. Rather the queen (or another title used queen mother) was the mother of the king, and her importance and authority in Israel was second only to the king. The office of queen mother and its establishment is attributed to King Solomon and is found in 1 Kings: 2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay.

So when we say Mary is the Queen of Heaven, we are also saying that Jesus her Son is King of Heaven. For if Mary is not queen of heaven then neither is Jesus king of heaven. Hopefully you see the point. The same applies to the title of Mother of God. If Mary is not the mother of God, then that means that Jesus is not God. They both go hand in hand, and you cannot separate either without falling into heresy.

I can understand. Americans and many modern folks don't bow to no one anymore. This is a custom that has ceased to exist in the modern world. In ancient and even just a few hundred years ago prostrating or bowing down yourself was common practice to display humility. Mankind has lost much of its humility, sadly.

I don't know what you would call how St. Elizabeth attitude toward here in Luke 2.

I know I said I was done, but I felt that I should at least thank you for your polite responses to my questions. There are many Biblical reasons I do not agree with the claim that anyone who refuses to honour Mary as many Catholics do is actually denying that Jesus is God (or "King of Heaven") Also, with the various titles given to Mary. However, everyone must look into this for themselves and I truly hope that people will read the Bible in regard to much of what is taught about Mary.

God bless.

 

[Mountainmike]

I really do wish at least some of you would research catholicism before pass judgement on your own ill researched and poor caricature of it.

I will not address all the points that are made on this thread. Many are just silly.
Most I have already addressed over the time, multiple times on multiple threads on multiple forums even.

But let us for example address one you ridicule. "Queen of Heaven"
Which is not a theologically important title such as "mother of God" and it is not a title which is emphasised in the catechism.

But it still has biblical foundation, which is why catholics sometimes give her that honorary title.

First the facts.
Fact 1/ Jesus did all he could, indeed scripture does all it can to identify Jesus as a davidic king. Too many references to mention, including being heralded as such at the annunciation!. Why? because he wants contemporary jews to understand his statements and actions in those terms.

Fact 2/ He also performs actions which align him to davidic kings and solomons times in particular.
Take - riding on a donkey - a direct reference back to david and solomon. Check it out.

Fact 3/ The "queen" of a davidic kingdom was not the spouse. It was the mother of the king. Numerous are mentioned in the OT, because the mothers are queen.
Historical fact.

Fact 4/ What is the power of the queen in a davidic kingdom?
Precisely NONE it is an honorary title reflecting being mother of a davidic king, but they DO have powers of intercession and as we are told in 1 kings 2 - solomon (a davidic king, which as we have seen Christ wanted to align himself )
What did solomon do?
- He gave her throne.
- He bowed to her.
- Most important - he said "make your request my mother, for I will not refuse you"
Now read the above again. Just in case you missed it.
he said 1 kings 2:20 "make your request my mother, for I will not refuse you"


Fact 5/ So the intercession by a davidic queen, to persuade the king to do what she wishes is a biblical fact!
We see intercession in action at Cana. But jesus tells Mary her request is too soon " what have you to do with me, my time has not yet come", but he honoured it none the less with a miracle: water into wine..

Fact 6/ So what is christs kingdom? It is heaven itself.
So what is an appropriate title for his mother with powers of intercession?
"Queen of Heaven" - in keeping with the old testament and structure of a davidic kingdom.

So please.
Spare us the silly stuff about "pagan" it is nothing of the sort.
It is the inevitable conclusion from understanding davidic kingdoms and Christs aligning himself to them.



And for all the other "anti catholic nonsense" - I can produce a similar underpinning. But why should I bother? YOu are all so illinformed about catholicism. And even when I post the biblical defence, the same nonsense will appear a few posts further on, it always does. Straight out of the "100 anticatholic myth playbook", that many of you seem to share. It is all the stuff I had to wade through from my own protestant and evangelical background, to discover the catholic church kept getting it right, but only if you take the time and trouble to understand what it really thinks, and why it thinks it, which has little to do with the "usual caricatures and myths"

In summary. Mary is not God.
Catholics do not consider her so.
But she is a davidic queen with powers of intercession therefore.
Earning the (purely honorary , but theologicially unimportant) title Queen of Heaven So thats why we ask her to "pray for us" and intercede for us.

Just for reinforcement read the writings of church fathers who chose your new testament and wrote your creed. St Ephraim writings for example was vociferous in support of the intercession of Mary! If you do not trust the judgement of those fathers, you have no bible or creed either!

Simples

I've heard all of the above explanations and reasoning countless times before. None of it gives any justification to what the Catholic Church has done with Mary.
Actually, I think she'd be horrified to know (if she was able) what is done in her name and all the unbiblical honour and claims made about her.

Calling her "blessed" does not equal what the Catholic Church does. As you also quoted, Mary acknowledged that she was in need of a Saviour. Catholics may excuse this by saying, "we do not worship her, we 'venerate' her." Actually there is very little difference between the two words, they can often be used synonymously. Most importantly, however, if you honestly consider (in light of Scripture) what is actually said and done in Catholicism in regard to Mary, there remains no doubt that she is very much worshipped.

Also, as I demonstrated from Scripture, those titles she is given are idolatrous and "Queen of Heaven" goes back to ancient paganism and goddess worship. Why do you suppose that such things are permissible now when the Bible is clear that God entirely condemns such practices?

Those pictures are very clear. Nothing in them is Biblical in any way.

If believing the Bible over traditions of man makes me a "radical", then I suppose I am one.

God bless.

 

[amariselle]

I really do wish at least some of you would research catholicism before pass judgement on your own ill researched and poor caricature of it.

I will not address all the points that are made on this thread. Many are just silly.
Most I have already addressed over the time.

But let us for example address one you ridicule. "Queen of Heaven"
Which is not a theologically important title such as "mother of God" and it is not a title which is emphasised in the catechism.

But it still has biblical foundation, which is why catholics sometimes give her that honorary title.

First the facts.
Fact 1/ Jesus did all he could, indeed scripture does all it can to identify Jesus as a davidic king. Too many references to mention, including being heralded as such at the annunciation!. Why? because he wants contemporary jews to understand his statements and actions in those terms.

Fact 2/ He also performs actions which align him to davidic kings and solomons times in particular.
Take - riding on a donkey - a direct reference back to david and solomon. Check it out.

Fact 3/ The "queen" of a davidic kingdom was not the spouse. It was the mother of the king. Numerous are mentioned in the OT, because the mothers are queen.
Historical fact.

Fact 4/ What is the power of the queen in a davidic kingdom?
Precisely NONE it is an honorary title reflecting being mother of a davidic king, but they DO have powers of intercession and as we are told in 1 kings 2 - solomon (a davidic king, which as we have seen Christ wanted to align himself )
What did solomon do?
- He gave her throne.
- He bowed to her.
- Most important - he said "make your request my mother, for I will not refuse you"
Now read the above again. Just in case you missed it.
he said 1 kings 2:20 "make your request my mother, for I will not refuse you"


Fact 5/ So the intercession by a davidic queen, to persuade the king to do what she wishes is a biblical fact!
We see intercession in action at Cana. But jesus tells Mary her request is too soon " what have you to do with me, my time has not yet come", but he honoured it none the less with a miracle: water into wine..

Fact 6/ So what is christs kingdom? It is heaven itself.
So what is an appropriate title for his mother with powers of intercession?
"Queen of Heaven" - in keeping with the old testament and structure of a davidic kingdom.

So please.
Spare us the silly stuff about "pagan" it is nothing of the sort.
It is the inevitable conclusion from understanding davidic kingdoms and Christs aligning himself to them.



And for all the other "anti catholic nonsense" - I can produce a similar underpinning. But why should I bother? YOu are all so illinformed about catholicism. And even when I post the biblical defence, the same nonsense will appear a few posts further on, it always does. Straight out of the "100 anticatholic myth playbook", that many of you seem to share. It is all the stuff I had to wade through from my own protestant and evangelical background, to discover the catholic church kept getting it right.

In summary. Mary is not God.
Catholics do not consider her so.
But she is a davidic queen with powers of intercession therefore.
Earning the (purely honorary , but theologicially unimportant) title Queen of Heaven So thats why we ask her to "pray for us" and intercede for us.

Just for reinforcement read the writings of church fathers who chose your new testament and wrote your creed. St Ephraim writings for example was vociferous in support of the intercession of Mary! If you do not trust the judgement of those fathers, you have no bible or creed either!

Simples

I don't believe I've discussed any of this with you personally before, and since you quoted my post and have chosen to accuse me of being "illinformed" and have suggested that what I've said is "unbiblical nonsense", here are a few questions for you:

When did Jesus bow down to Mary or give her a throne? (Since you want to compare Mary to king Solomon's mother).

When did Jesus (or any of the inspired Scripture writers) tell us that we should make requests of Mary, because Jesus "can't refuse" her?

Where did Jesus (or any of the Scripture writers) tell us that Mary makes intercession for us?

Where in Scripture is Mary referred to as a "Davidic Queen"?

Where in Scripture is Mary referred to as the "Queen of Heaven"?

Where in Scripture is Mary referred to as the "Mediatrix/Dispenser of All Graces"?

Where in Scripture does it say that Mary is between Christ Jesus and mankind, and that we must go through her to reach Christ?

You mentioned that there is in fact Biblical support for these claims, so surely you would be able to supply it.

And as for the early "Church Fathers", they did not write inspired Scripture. So, I do not consider their writings authoritative as the Bible is.

God bless.

 

[PeaceB]

I don't believe I've discussed any of this with you personally before, and since you quoted my post and have chosen to accused me of being "illinformed" and have suggested that what I've said is "unbiblical nonsense", here are a few questions for you:

When did Jesus bow down to Mary or give her a throne? (Since you want to compare Mary to king Solomon's mother).

When did Jesus (or any of the inspired Scripture writers) tell us that we should make requests of Mary, because Jesus "can't refuse" her?

Where did Jesus (or any of the Scripture writers) tell us that Mary makes intercession for us?

Where in Scripture is Mary referred to as a "Davidic Queen"?

Where in Scripture is Mary referred to as the "Queen of Heaven"?

Where in Scripture is Mary referred to as the "Mediatrix/Dispenser of All Graces"?

Where in Scripture does it say that Mary is between Christ Jesus and mankind, and that we must go through her to reach Christ?

You mentioned that there is in fact Biblical support for these claims, so surely you would be able to supply it.

And as for the early "Church Fathers", they did not write inspired Scripture. So, I do not consider their writings authoritative as the Bible is.

God bless.

Show me the verse that says "Queen of Heaven" or I will not believe.

Show me the verse that says "Mediatrix" or I will not believe.

You already know perfectly well that none of those terms are contained in the Scripture. And if someone attempts to show you where the ideas are implicit in Scripture, you will reject them. Nor will you make any earnest attempt to try to understand them. In fact, you have already been provided with explanations numerous times and you have already rejected them numerous times. There is absolutely nothing that anyone could do to get you to budge on your position one inch, and both you and everyone else here knows it.

You simply want to debate on, and on, and on . . .

That is what we call "obsessing".