Is Mary God?

[Phil 1:21]

Before anything can be declared a miracle, it has to pass strict scientific scrutiny. Scientists do not declare miracles, they can only say there is no explanation. Whether or not Muslims and Hindus have a discerning mechanism is not known. Once scientific findings are submitted to the Church, it may or may not be declared a miracle.
Scientific Evidence for Miracles page 1: examination of the Lourdes rules for miracel acceptence.

Hopefully they don't use the same "scientific experts" they used to determine that pedophile priests could be fixed and safely sent off to other parishes.

 

[bbbbbbb]

W

I copied 1cor12:20-31 in response to your query of the value of asking for intercession of a priest which was prompted by my statement that all christians (not just Mary) have a role in intercession.
The verse points to value /unique role of different parts of the body.

Exactly, with no mention whatsoever about priests or a priesthood. My point was that one does not need the intercession of a priest any more than the intercession of another Christian.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Before anything can be declared a miracle, it has to pass strict scientific scrutiny. Scientists do not declare miracles, they can only say there is no explanation. Whether or not Muslims and Hindus have a discerning mechanism is not known. Once scientific findings are submitted to the Church, it may or may not be declared a miracle.
Scientific Evidence for Miracles page 1: examination of the Lourdes rules for miracel acceptence.

Given the fact that most Catholic miracles were affirmed long before forensic scientific methodology was available and that the Catholic Church is hardly interested in revisiting them, it is a moot issue to assert that Catholic miracles must pass strict scientific scrutiny.

Do you remember the huge brouhaha that erupted when the Shroud of Turin was scientifically proven to be a forgery? That is the last time I know that the Catholic Church subjected any historic miracle to scientific scrutiny.

I have always wondered what scientists would say about the Miracle of Loretto where angels are believed to have transported a complete house from Palestine to Italy.

 

[Panevino]

Exactly, with no mention whatsoever about priests or a priesthood. My point was that one does not need the intercession of a priest any more than the intercession of another Christian.

You keep conflating different topics in each response, bringing up different disagreements you have. Apostles are priests in a Catholic/Orthodox doctrinal worldview. Intercession is by all christians including Mary, your strawman that you built is that Catholics view Mary as the only intercessor and only way through to Jesus.
In a general sense I agree that intercession by any is just as valuable but in another sense priests are set apart for the Eucharist/mass, Catholic worship.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You keep conflating different topics in each response, bringing up different disagreements you have. Apostles are priests in a Catholic/Orthodox doctrinal worldview. Intercession is by all christians including Mary, your strawman that you built is that Catholics view Mary as the only intercessor and only way through to Jesus.
In a general sense I agree that intercession by any is just as valuable but in another sense priests are set apart for the Eucharist/mass, Catholic worship.

If, as you say priests and Apostles are identical, then where do your bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and pope fit into the passage? I suspect Orthodox Christians would compare the Apostles with their patriarchs and not their parish priests. Before we change topics, what do you compare the Prophets in the I Corinthians 12 passage to?

 

[Panevino]

If, as you say priests and Apostles are identical, then where do your bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and pope fit into the passage? I suspect Orthodox Christians would compare the Apostles with their patriarchs and not their parish priests. Before we change topics, what do you compare the Prophets in the I Corinthians 12 passage to?

Not identical, priest is a component of being an Apostle. Apostles, bishops, cardinals, pope are all priests. Per Acts15 some apostles defer to the church (hierarchy) to reach a consensus on doctrine through the Holy Spirit.

 

[prodromos]

I suspect Orthodox Christians would compare the Apostles with their patriarchs and not their parish priests.

Patriarchs are Bishops and Priests act on behalf of the Bishops. In a sense they are the Bishop's hands.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Patriarchs are Bishops and Priests act on behalf of the Bishops. In a sense they are the Bishop's hands.

Yes, I understand that. Do you have an office within Orthodoxy which you would equate with the Apostolic Office of the New Testament?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not identical, priest is a component of being an Apostle. Apostles, bishops, cardinals, pope are all priests. Per Acts15 some apostles defer to the church (hierarchy) to reach a consensus on doctrine through the Holy Spirit.

So, where do you find priests in I Corinthians 12?

 

[prodromos]

Yes, I understand that. Do you have an office within Orthodoxy which you would equate with the Apostolic Office of the New Testament?

The Apostles are unique, but they established lines of authority through the laying on of hands. The Bishops are the continuation of that authority.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Apostles are unique, but they established lines of authority through the laying on of hands. The Bishops are the continuation of that authority.

That is what I thought that the Orthodox belief is. Thank you.

 

[Panevino]

So, where do you find priests in I Corinthians 12?

Catholic view of bishop is same as Prodromos gave. And an apostle/bishop is also a priest.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Catholic view of bishop is same as Prodromos gave. And an apostle/bishop is also a priest.

But not all priests are apostles. How many bishops are cardinals?

 

[kepha31]

Exactly, with no mention whatsoever about priests or a priesthood. My point was that one does not need the intercession of a priest any more than the intercession of another Christian.

James 5:14-16
14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, (to the elders of the church) and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

 

[kepha31]

Given the fact that most Catholic miracles were affirmed long before forensic scientific methodology was available and that the Catholic Church is hardly interested in revisiting them, it is a moot issue to assert that Catholic miracles must pass strict scientific scrutiny.

Your point is?
Scientific Evidence for Miracles page 1: examination of the Lourdes rules for miracel acceptence.

Do you remember the huge brouhaha that erupted when the Shroud of Turin was scientifically proven to be a forgery?

It was never proven to be a forgery, and never proven to be authentic. There is no scientific method that can point the exact year, day hour and minute of the Shroud origin. The Church has not announced it to be authentic (and never will, IMO). It is an icon of Holy Saturday. To miss that is to miss the point. The huge brouhaha that erupted was over an outdated C14 test that later proved to be false due to a bio layer of dust and pollen. The media doesn't cover what the book does. How anybody managed to make a forgery from 30' away with medieval equipment is anybody's guess. In my opinion, having studied the scientific findings at length, it is authentic. (amazon has a list) If you refuse to believe it, I couldn't care less.

I have always wondered what scientists would say about the Miracle of Loretto where angels are believed to have transported a complete house from Palestine to Italy.

No official statement has been made by the Church to my knowledge.

Why is it that when a miracle takes place, the scoffers and skeptics come out of the woodwork? Are they afraid to admit there is something greater than themselves?

For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Your point is?
Scientific Evidence for Miracles page 1: examination of the Lourdes rules for miracel acceptence.

It was never proven to be a forgery, and never proven to be authentic. There is no scientific method that can point the exact year, day hour and minute of the Shroud origin. The Church has not announced it to be authentic (and never will, IMO). It is an icon of Holy Saturday. To miss that is to miss the point. The huge brouhaha that erupted was over an outdated C14 test that later proved to be false due to a bio layer of dust and pollen. The media doesn't cover what the book does. How anybody managed to make a forgery from 30' away with medieval equipment is anybody's guess. In my opinion, having studied the scientific findings at length, it is authentic. (amazon has a list) If you refuse to believe it, I couldn't care less.
No official statement has been made by the Church to my knowledge.

Why is it that when a miracle takes place, the scoffers and skeptics come out of the woodwork? Are they afraid to admit there is something greater than themselves?



My point is that virtually all Catholic miracles are like miracles from all other faith traditions. They are not scientifically substantiated and really do not need to be so because they are ultimately a matter for the believers and not for the skeptics such as myself.

The Shroud of Turin has been generally downplayed by the Catholic Church following the scientific investigation which did show it to be a forgery. You might want to read the book by Walter McCrone who performed the microscopic investigation.

As for Loreto, one rarely hears of it today. Certainly no modern scientific investigation has been conducted. There are a multitude of forensic investigations such as wood investigations that could easily confirm the original location of the building.

 

[kepha31]

It amounts to you being an unbeliever. The scientific methodology for Lourdes investigations is exhaustive and the best in the world, yet you say they are not scientifically substantiated.

I haven't read Walter McCrone's book but does he say how the forgery was accomplished? The Pope called the Shroud an icon of Holy Saturday. Is that what you mean by downplaying it?

As for Loreto, I had to google it. I wouldn't say one way or another whether or not angels moved a house at this time. But with God, all things are possible.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It amounts to you being an unbeliever. The scientific methodology for Lourdes investigations is exhaustive and the best in the world, yet you say they are not scientifically substantiated.

I haven't read Walter McCrone's book but does he say how the forgery was accomplished? The Pope called the Shroud an icon of Holy Saturday. Is that what you mean by downplaying it?

As for Loreto, I had to google it. I wouldn't say one way or another whether or not angels moved a house at this time. But with God, all things are possible.

You are quite correct. I am not a believer in the miracles asserted by the Catholic Church. Nor is any Catholic, for that matter, as all Catholics, including yourself, are ignorant of some, or most, of the miracles. However, belief in miracles is not a dogma of the Catholic church, so it is not a mortal sin not to believe in something you know nothing about in this case.

As for Lourdes, I cannot speak to that issue, nor have I.

Walter McCrone concluded that the red "blood" stains on the shroud of Turin are not human blood, but iron oxide used as a paint pigment.

Loreto is either a truly astounding miracle or a truly astounding fraud. It is a pity that the Catholic Church has not subjected it to scientific investigation.

 

[kepha31]

There were some that refused to believe Jesus' miracles and they were right there.
The image on the Shroud can only be seen from 30' away, if I recall correctly. Iron oxide would be rather tricky painting, and why has no one made a duplicate forgery?
There have been thousands of miracles at Loreto since the 13th century. But I agree, the Church should send a team of scientists aboard the time machine built by the Jesuits.

 

[HighCherub]

Just as most other churches, they have their share of heretics- and because they are the largest, they ought to have a considerable amount.
The notion of Mary being God certainly would exist somewhere among them considering the emphasis the Roman and Eastern Churches put on Mary.

Regardless, those churches maintain the Trinity and, by extension, do not figure Mary into Godhood.

And this is coming from a Calvinist; may as well just drop the notion