Is lying moral for Christians?

[essentialsaltes]

will be happy to take all the paying customers that are rejected due to the one sin that is somehow greater than all others.

Playing Christmas music before Thanksgiving?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Playing Christmas music before Thanksgiving?

It can’t be a sin if Hobby Lobby is doing it.

 

[joshua 1 9]

To say nothing wouldn't be lying. To give a reason that is not correct would be lying.

In the mentioned thread, some Christians gave the advice: "Tell them you are busy.", if they don't want to take the job. That is a slight difference from: "No, I won't take the job", wouldn't you say?

Yes, you have the "right" to remain silent. I'm not quite sure what this would demonstrate to a potential customer. Nothing good, I'd say.

The main point here is you have a situation where a liberal is trying to shove or force their opinion on a conservative. They are trying to use the law to force them to do something against their fundamental religious freedom. This is a violation of the conservatives constitutional rights. Under the circumstances what do you think an appropriate response would be?

We are talking about the Colorado Baker who refused to bake a cake for the same sex marriage.

Cake Is His ‘Art.’ So Can He Deny One to a Gay Couple?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Jesus never lied, so no it is not moral. Instead, we are called to be prudent, discrete and careful with our words.

Jesus never drove a car, so no, it is not moral.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Jesus never drove a car, so no, it is not moral.

I Know right? I Love how those cars imitate the iron beast in daniel and revelation, and how they are given power by dragon's bones, such a delightful fulfillment of prophecy. Without the automobile, how would Industry devour the earth and trample all the protesters under its feet?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Reading that in context is clear to see why that was said; Rom 3:3-4 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:“That You may be justified in Your words,And may overcome when You are judged.”

I tend to apply this verse in a hopeless argument in saying ... well, I know God is right. and leave it at that.

 

[Freodin]

The main point here is you have a situation where a liberal is trying to shove or force their opinion on a conservative. They are trying to use the law to force them to do something against their fundamental religious freedom. This is a violation of the conservatives constitutional rights. Under the circumstances what do you think an appropriate response would be?

We are talking about the Colorado Baker who refused to bake a cake for the same sex marriage.

Cake Is His ‘Art.’ So Can He Deny One to a Gay Couple?

As I said in the OP, I don't want to discuss this question here.
Personally I would say that if you place your "fundamental religious freedom" and "constitutional right" over loving your neighbors, you are doing something wrong.

 

[majj27]

Lying is always a sin, but we can repent at a later time.

That comes awfully close to intentionally choosing to do something you know to be wrong because hey, you can always just say you're sorry. I'm not certain that's a good plan.

 

[Strathos]

Well, I could not comment on the original thread I mentioned, because it was in a Christian-Only section of this forum. It seems there are Christians who are very well able to do it.


Considering that it was explicitly Christians who gave this advice, I think this cute little attacks on Muslims in inappropriate.

Interesting though that you mention it. What you said is wrong: Muslims are, by their religion, also not allowed to lie "if it forwards their purposes", and definitly not encouraged. This, basically is a lie, often repeated by anti-islam sources.

Muslims are, though, allowed to lie, if telling the truth would place them in unnecessary danger or hardship.

Quite relevant for this situation. Some Christians have repeatedly claimed that doing business with "sinners" (like baking wedding cakes for same-sex-couples, doing photos, etc.) would "go against their religion" or "make them celebrate the sin".
You might consider this "unnecessary harship". A Muslim in this case might be religiously justified to resort to false excuses.

Muslims mainly defend that rule by saying it's meant for situations where admitting they were Muslim would get them killed or something, and that may have been the original intent, but many Muslims use it to justify lying for personal gain, just like you accuse Christians of doing.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Personally I would say that if you place your "fundamental religious freedom" and"constitutional right" over loving your neighbors, you are doing something wrong.

That door swings both ways.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

As I said in the OP, I don't want to discuss this question here.
Personally I would say that if you place your "fundamental religious freedom" and "constitutional right" over loving your neighbors, you are doing something wrong.

What if a part of loving your neighbor, as it is set by principle within one's paradigm, also includes not only expressing verbal articulations that your neighbor is morally wrong, but also resistance against general legal requirements for complicity that, if obeyed, would deny the basic principles of your paradigm?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Muslims mainly defend that rule by saying it's meant for situations where admitting they were Muslim would get them killed or something, and that may have been the original intent, but many Muslims use it to justify lying for personal gain, just like you accuse Christians of doing.

Freodin is accusing no one, the Christians replying to the posts are flat out telling the person to lie.

BTW the Thread has nothing to do with Muslims, no matter how much you want it to.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Freodin is accusing no one, the Christians replying to the posts are flat out telling the person to lie.

BTW the Thread has nothing to do with Muslims, no matter how much you want it to.

I wouldn't say that the Baker or Candle-Stick Maker, or whatever, should lie. And to some extent, we Christians should know the risk of ... being Christian, just like in the good ol' days!

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

That comes awfully close to intentionally choosing to do something you know to be wrong because hey, you can always just say you're sorry. I'm not certain that's a good plan.

I didn't say it was a good plan. However, even Saint Augustin was said to say, "Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet".

 

[durangodawood]

Jesus never drove a car, so no, it is not moral.

Just like with cars, they hadnt invented lying yet back then.

 

[keith99]

Just like with cars, they hadnt invented lying yet back then.

Is there any record of Jesus going to the bathroom? Do we then conclude he never did? Do we then decide since Jesus never did it the act is sinful?

BTW there is mention of making facilities for just this purpose in Genesis or Exodus.

 

[durangodawood]

Is there any record of Jesus going to the bathroom?...

Its in the uberpocrpypha.

 

[keith99]

I saw that thread too and the answers surprised me as well. On the flip side, my Photography business that my daughter is currently running, and covers the Muskegon Michigan area as well, will be happy to take all the paying customers that are rejected due to the one sin that is somehow greater than all others.

They do not surprise me in the least. There is a certain sort of Christian who makes their faith well known yet never feel bound by the ethics if that faith.

Years ago I decided that if a business makes it known that they are Christian I will avoid them if feasible unless it seems that they are doing so because they choose not to work on the sabbath (and that it seems to me they are informing their customers at least in part for the sake of the customer). If they imply I'm Christian, you can trust me I know I can't and I simply will not do business with them.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I didn't say it was a good plan. However, even Saint Augustin was said to say, "Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet".

Out of context.

"But I, miserable young man, supremely miserable even in the very outset of my youth, had entreated chastity of You, and said, 'Grant me chastity and continency, but not yet.' For I was afraid lest You should hear me soon, and soon deliver me from the disease of concupiscence, which I desired to have satisfied rather than extinguished." - The Confessions, Book 8, Ch.7, 17

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Out of context.

"But I, miserable young man, supremely miserable even in the very outset of my youth, had entreated chastity of You, and said, 'Grant me chastity and continency, but not yet.' For I was afraid lest You should hear me soon, and soon deliver me from the disease of concupiscence, which I desired to have satisfied rather than extinguished." - The Confessions, Book 8, Ch.7, 17

-CryptoLutheran

How is it out of context? He did say that.