Is lying moral for Christians?

[Freodin]

Recently I read a thread where I couldn't directly comment.

Basically, it was about the ongoing question about how "Christian" business-owners could deal with "sinful" customers. I have my own opinions on that general question, but these are irrelevant here. I don't want to discuss this question here.

But what really surprised my was the number of Christians how gave the advise of "lie about it". Say that you are busy, not taking new customers... whatever. Don't take the customers, but don't tell him the real reasons... that you don't want to have anything to do with their "sin".

Now I can understand the discussion about the general morality (or immorality) of lying - the old "there's a Jewish family hiding in the attic and the GESTAPO is asking you" dilemma.

But how does a Christian defend lying for his own personal gain?

 

[GingerBeer]

No. Not under ordinary circumstances.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Recently I read a thread where I couldn't directly comment.

Basically, it was about the ongoing question about how "Christian" business-owners could deal with "sinful" customers. I have my own opinions on that general question, but these are irrelevant here. I don't want to discuss this question here.

But what really surprised my was the number of Christians how gave the advise of "lie about it". Say that you are busy, not taking new customers... whatever. Don't take the customers, but don't tell him the real reasons... that you don't want to have anything to do with their "sin".

Now I can understand the discussion about the general morality (or immorality) of lying - the old "there's a Jewish family hiding in the attic and the GESTAPO is asking you" dilemma.

But how does a Christian defend lying for his own personal gain?

He or she won't be able to. We are not muslims who are encouraged to lie if it forwards their purposes. Jesus expected our word to be enough.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

However, for the sake of others, like in your gestapo example, I would lie and I am quite certain the Holy Spirit would support lying in that case; because it is for a great good of loving others. I think there are some things that matter more to God. If we are following the Holy Spirit, He will lead us to what we are to do. Then, it is our job to follow Him. But, to make a plan to lie for personal gain in the situation you described, immediately begs the question: (1) Who gets to decided the customer is more sinful than us? (2) If we do what the world does, what makes us any different from the world?--and the Bible says we should look different than the world, not just like them with a different team logo on our shirts.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Lying is always a sin, but we can repent at a later time. We should try to avoid lying as much as possible, so we should not make plans to lie to customers. It is very respectful to tell people that your religious beliefs prevent you from offering service to them as long as they promote sinful activities.

 

[Freodin]

He or she won't be able to.

Well, I could not comment on the original thread I mentioned, because it was in a Christian-Only section of this forum. It seems there are Christians who are very well able to do it.

We are not muslims who are encouraged to lie if it forwards their purposes. Jesus expected our word to be enough.

Considering that it was explicitly Christians who gave this advice, I think this cute little attacks on Muslims in inappropriate.

Interesting though that you mention it. What you said is wrong: Muslims are, by their religion, also not allowed to lie "if it forwards their purposes", and definitly not encouraged. This, basically is a lie, often repeated by anti-islam sources.

Muslims are, though, allowed to lie, if telling the truth would place them in unnecessary danger or hardship.

Quite relevant for this situation. Some Christians have repeatedly claimed that doing business with "sinners" (like baking wedding cakes for same-sex-couples, doing photos, etc.) would "go against their religion" or "make them celebrate the sin".
You might consider this "unnecessary harship". A Muslim in this case might be religiously justified to resort to false excuses.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Recently I read a thread where I couldn't directly comment.

Basically, it was about the ongoing question about how "Christian" business-owners could deal with "sinful" customers. I have my own opinions on that general question, but these are irrelevant here. I don't want to discuss this question here.

But what really surprised my was the number of Christians how gave the advise of "lie about it". Say that you are busy, not taking new customers... whatever. Don't take the customers, but don't tell him the real reasons... that you don't want to have anything to do with their "sin".

Now I can understand the discussion about the general morality (or immorality) of lying - the old "there's a Jewish family hiding in the attic and the GESTAPO is asking you" dilemma.

But how does a Christian defend lying for his own personal gain?

I saw that thread too and the answers surprised me as well. On the flip side, my Photography business that my daughter is currently running, and covers the Muskegon Michigan area as well, will be happy to take all the paying customers that are rejected due to the one sin that is somehow greater than all others.

 

[Freodin]

Lying is always a sin, but we can repent at a later time. We should try to avoid lying as much as possible, so we should not make plans to lie to customers. It is very respectful to tell people that your religious beliefs prevent you from offering service to them as long as they promote sinful activities.

I think the customers in question might disagree. And regardless of "respectful" or not... there might be this little problem of it being illegal.

I know that Christians have a special relationship with martrydom... yet the willingness to "suffer" for your beliefs seem to be rather lacking amongst the capitalist-oriented Christians.

 

[FireDragon76]

It is only ethical in situations where somebody does not have a right to the truth (like the Gestapo example).

 

[joshua 1 9]

but don't tell him the real reasons

This is an oxymoron. It is not a lie to say nothing. Secrets and lies may destroy relationships but a secret is not a lie. Even here on this forum there are lots and lots of gag orders and lots of things we are not allowed to say. Under law we have the right to remain silent.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Recently I read a thread where I couldn't directly comment.

Basically, it was about the ongoing question about how "Christian" business-owners could deal with "sinful" customers. I have my own opinions on that general question, but these are irrelevant here. I don't want to discuss this question here.

But what really surprised my was the number of Christians how gave the advise of "lie about it". Say that you are busy, not taking new customers... whatever. Don't take the customers, but don't tell him the real reasons... that you don't want to have anything to do with their "sin".

Now I can understand the discussion about the general morality (or immorality) of lying - the old "there's a Jewish family hiding in the attic and the GESTAPO is asking you" dilemma.

But how does a Christian defend lying for his own personal gain?

I don't know. I haven't run across Christians yet who would say that kind of thing is ok. But, in this day and age, with the plurality of thought that is now out in the open, I guess anything is possible. I wouldn't say the act of lying for personal gain is a Christian one, though.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

We must always remember, not everyone who says Lord, LORD is indeed a child of God. By their fruit you shall know them. The true Judge is not fooled. plus the fact of maturity will play a major role in ones life style.

 

[Freodin]

This is an oxymoron. It is not a lie to say nothing. Secrets and lies may destroy relationships but a secret is not a lie. Even here on this forum there are lots and lots of gag orders and lots of things we are not allowed to say. Under law we have the right to remain silent.

To say nothing wouldn't be lying. To give a reason that is not correct would be lying.

In the mentioned thread, some Christians gave the advice: "Tell them you are busy.", if they don't want to take the job. That is a slight difference from: "No, I won't take the job", wouldn't you say?

Yes, you have the "right" to remain silent. I'm not quite sure what this would demonstrate to a potential customer. Nothing good, I'd say.

 

[Freodin]

I don't know. I haven't run across Christians yet who would say that kind of thing is ok. But, in this day and age, with the plurality of thought that is now out in the open, I guess anything is possible. I wouldn't say the act of lying for personal gain is a Christian one, though.

You know, that is the rub with the "you are not allowed to post here" rules on this forum.

Sometimes you stumble over a post or statement in a "forbidden for non-Christians!" part of the forum, go "What?"... but you cannot directly confront the statement.

So you post an open question somewhere else... but of course instead of those who make or support the initial statement, you only get the "I have never seen this anywhere" types.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You know, that is the rub with the "you are not allowed to post here" rules on this forum.

Sometimes you stumble over a post or statement in a "forbidden for non-Christians!" part of the forum, go "What?"... but you cannot directly confront the statement.

So you post an open question somewhere else... but of course instead of those who make or support the initial statement, you only get the "I have never seen this anywhere" types.

I'm simply saying that I haven't bumped into many people who claim to be Christian and would just out and out say "lying is okay"! I'm not denying that they exist. So sure, you may have run into people who claim to be Christian but who have a political, "circle-the-wagons" social mentality, which on their part isn't really reflecting something which Jesus said is appropriate moral behavior.

However, I'd qualify this by saying that a Christian who has social interactions in a less than accommodating world, whether these are within the contexts of business or even on just a general interpersonal level, is still within the realm of ethical Christian behavior if he resorts to the use of "shrewdness" to negotiate a better outcome.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

But how does a Christian defend lying for his own personal gain?

They might use a verse like Psalms 18:25-26 with an "imitate God" framework. Since God shows himself shrewd to those who are crooked, some may not have a problem with it.

 

[AlexDTX]

Recently I read a thread where I couldn't directly comment.

Basically, it was about the ongoing question about how "Christian" business-owners could deal with "sinful" customers. I have my own opinions on that general question, but these are irrelevant here. I don't want to discuss this question here.

But what really surprised my was the number of Christians how gave the advise of "lie about it". Say that you are busy, not taking new customers... whatever. Don't take the customers, but don't tell him the real reasons... that you don't want to have anything to do with their "sin".

Now I can understand the discussion about the general morality (or immorality) of lying - the old "there's a Jewish family hiding in the attic and the GESTAPO is asking you" dilemma.

But how does a Christian defend lying for his own personal gain?

Jesus never lied, so no it is not moral. Instead, we are called to be prudent, discrete and careful with our words.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Then there's Romans 3:4, and one might question if it is possible to "not lie" since the scripture says "let God be true and all mankind a liar"

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Reading that in context is clear to see why that was said; Rom 3:3-4 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:“That You may be justified in Your words,And may overcome when You are judged.”

 

[~Anastasia~]

Lying is always a sin. Christians should not be planning to do so or advising others to choose to do so. Telling others to sin is a sin.

But I suppose they see no other way out of their moral dilemma. And perhaps not all understand this. There is much confusion in Christianity.

The only time a person should lie is to prevent a much greater sin, such as to protect innocents from being killed. Even then it is still a sin, but it could be a greater sin to allow lives to be lost. Either way there will BE sin, so commit the lesser, most loving one, and repent in sorrow that it was necessary. God forgives.

But doing so for convenience or personal gain cannot be justified, anymore than one can justify stealing for personal gain.