Is Lying For Sex a Form of Rape?

[RealDealNeverstop]

If you lie for the explicit purpose of sex has the other person had the opportunity for consentual sex? If you tell someone you want to date them exclusively so they will have sex while knowing you have no intention of such a relationship, could it be considered a form of rape outside the legal arena? If someone consentually engages in sexual activity that is based on a lie, are they even able to give consent?

 

[Eudaimonist]

No, I don't think that is rape. It might not be ethical, but there was consent for sex, even if there was the false promise of a relationship attached.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wayte]

I wouldn't say it constitutes rape. Is it messed up? Absolutely. But just as no means no, yes means yes.

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Probably not but I would need a example.

 

[jayem]

I guess having sex with someone using trickery or duplicity could be considered rape. But you'd have to define rape very broadly--as engaging in a sex act with another person without that person's fully informed and willing consent. AFAIK, in the legal sense, rape is generally is considered as a sexual assault. Which means there must be force, threat of force, some other type of pressure or intimidation, or the victim has a legal inability to give consent. For legal purposes, it's hard enough to prove rape as it is. Broadening the definition may make for an interesting ethical discussion, but it's not very practical.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

I guess having sex with someone using trickery or duplicity could be considered rape. But you'd have to define rape very broadly--as engaging in a sex act with another person without that person's fully informed and willing consent. AFAIK, in the legal sense, rape is generally is considered as a sexual assault. Which means there must be force, threat of force, some other type of pressure or intimidation, or the victim has a legal inability to give consent. For legal purposes, it's hard enough to prove rape as it is. Broadening the definition may make for an interesting ethical discussion, but it's not very practical.

I had mentioned in the OP this was outside the legal arena for the problems you highlighted.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

No, I don't think that is rape. It might not be ethical, but there was consent for sex, even if there was the false promise of a relationship attached.


eudaimonia,

Mark

How can consent based on a falsehood be considered consent?

 

[Mling]

I don't think it can be determined broad-brush like that. I mean, "informed" isn't generally considered to mean "informed about every little thing that might ever one-day be considered relevant."

I wouldn't consider it rape if somebody lied about their intentions to some day marry, or about particular details of their identity, like political party or career or religion or something like that. It's scummy as all heck, but I wouldn't even consider it rape if they lied about their disease status.

But then I think about the "twin brother" issue--what if the person isn't actually your partner, but their twin, claiming to be your partner....or what if they lie (possibly by omission) about whether there is anybody else in the room (say, hiding in the closet or under the bed) watching. The former, I would call rape, the latter...maybe not, but definitely something else in that same category.

I guess, if they're lying about the sex act itself, and what sort of sex act is about to be, and who is involved in it, then it might be considered rape or something similar.

Lying about details, probably not.

 

[Mling]

How can consent based on a falsehood be considered consent?

Well, it depends on how relevant the falsehood is. I'd say that lying by renting snazzy stuff and bringing your date back to your rich uncle's apartment while he's out of town is sleezy, but making over 500K a year is not something that's inherent to sex. The other person might have been building up a hope of being treated to the high life for a while, and that hope is going to be dashed soon, and that's pretty scummy, but if the fact does still remain that the partner knew the basic identity of who they were sleeping with and what was going on, I have trouble considering it any form of rape.

 

[Jade Margery]

I think lying about things that could be directly related to sex, such as one's disease status or use of contraceptives (saying you're on the pill when you're not, for example) could be considered a form of sexual assault. Especially when it comes to STDs. Even if the sex is otherwise consensual, if you don't inform your partner when you have an STD then you are putting them in danger without their consent. I'm not sure this would be classified as 'rape' but I would definitely call it sexual assault and believe it should be an illegal, punishable act.

Lying about other things, like how much money you make or how much you care about the other person? Very scummy, but not rape or assault. Though I wouldn't be surprised if you found your car keyed after a week or so.

 

[AGODBELIEVERlove1stfaith2]

rape is non consenting


but fornication is not even a crime in society/// hm hm

 

[If Not For Grace]

No-It's Lying which is not against the law. (& you'll never get a politician to vote FOR it's being made so )

Rape is non consentual sex which is against the law

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Probably not but I would need a example.

Ie. Tom and Jane go on several dates and spend time together in various venues. They are romantic but it is limited because Tom knows Jane wont play Butterfly unless she is in a monogamous relationship. Tom does not want that but he lies to Jane and says he does. So they play Butterfly and suddenly Tom stops dating Jane. So Jane gave consent but it was not a true consent because she was lied to.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

No-It's Lying which is not against the law. (& you'll never get a politician to vote FOR it's being made so )

Rape is non consentual sex which is against the law

Once again, the OP specifies this is outside the legal arena.

 

[Mling]

Ie. Tom and Jane go on several dates and spend time together in various venues. They are romantic but it is limited because Tom knows Jane wont play Butterfly unless she is in a monogamous relationship. Tom does not want that but he lies to Jane and says he does. So they play Butterfly and suddenly Tom stops dating Jane. So Jane gave consent but it was not a true consent because she was lied to.

She consented to have sex with Tom. He cheated on her (or else, quickly dumped her). Yes, it was consent. He lied, and was scummy, but he did not do anything that she wasn't willing to do; he did not force her into anything or coerce her, or take advantage of her in an altered mental state or simply act without bothering to find out whether she was interested. Where the sex is concerned, she consented. And he was a cad, and it was a bad relationship, but a bad relationship can be bad without needing to be "rape." Cheating isn't "rape." Leaving doesn't retroactively make sex "rape."

 

[Amber the Duskbringer]

Nope not rape. The thing I was thinking about was a /x/ thing I saw a couple days ago. Guy convinces girl her dad and mom were killed by government spies etc, she has a tracker in her yoo hoo and only he can find it. She believes him etc and lets him get it out and then she is so grateful they have sex. Probably fake not sure, but you know I am not sure what that would be honestly. Despicable yes.

I won't even post it but if you know what /x/ you can find it in their archives. Extremely not safe for this forum fyi. Reason I brought that up is because that is what i was thinking when the OP made this thread. What they just described though, no that isn't rape. It's just douchebaggery at it's lowest level.

 

[Paulos23]

Ie. Tom and Jane go on several dates and spend time together in various venues. They are romantic but it is limited because Tom knows Jane wont play Butterfly unless she is in a monogamous relationship. Tom does not want that but he lies to Jane and says he does. So they play Butterfly and suddenly Tom stops dating Jane. So Jane gave consent but it was not a true consent because she was lied to.

Interesting. Legally, no that is not rape. But depending on where you are depends on how badly you broke social ethics.

I found out about a month ago (from a friend) that in New York City you are either dating to marry, or just fooling around. Don't know how stone fast this rule is in New York City, but my understanding is this happens very early in the relationship process, normally before the first date. Lieing about your intentions will make your name mud in dating circles very quickly.

Not saying it wouldn't be a bad deal in other places, but in New York City that is a big no no.

 

[Jro]

Interesting. Legally, no that is not rape. But depending on where you are depends on how badly you broke social ethics.

I found out about a month ago (from a friend) that in New York City you are either dating to marry, or just fooling around. Don't know how stone fast this rule is in New York City, but my understanding is this happens very early in the relationship process, normally before the first date. Lieing about your intentions will make your name mud in dating circles very quickly.

Not saying it wouldn't be a bad deal in other places, but in New York City that is a big no no.

Honestly dude, that's not really true. New York City is a BIG place, with a lot of people and most of them don't know each other. People date to marry, people fool around, people just date to see what happens, etc., etc. Also, what's true for one group of new yorkers might be completely different from the new yorkers across the street.

 

[Paulos23]

Honestly dude, that's not really true. New York City is a BIG place, with a lot of people and most of them don't know each other. People date to marry, people fool around, people just date to see what happens, etc., etc. Also, what's true for one group of new yorkers might be completely different from the new yorkers across the street.

Well like I said, it was based on third hand information. So I am not surprised it is not 100% true. But still, I could see how such behavior would give you a bad reputation.

 

[Eudaimonist]

How can consent based on a falsehood be considered consent?

There would be no falsehood about a desire to have sex, and that is what is relevant here. If consent for sex is given, and that simply means the understanding that sex will take place and be freely willed, then there is no rape.


eudaimonia,

Mark