Is life realy nothing special?

PsychoSarah

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I an heading more to the multiverse theory. Life builds on preexisting complexity and a less complex universe is already more likely than a complex one.
1. Assuming this particular universe we are in is complex relative to other ones we haven't even observed. We might literally be in the most simple type of universe that can exist.
2. Since we can't observe any other universe (especially not with any detail), there's no telling how likely or unlikely our universe is relative to them.

I am not at ease with the idea that we should not at all think about likelyhood when tackling the question of life but maybe there is something I am not getting.
-_- probably that it currently isn't actually possible to calculate how likely life is, even in the context of it being within just this particular universe. Since we don't actually know all of the possible environments in which life can arise. We don't even know how common Earth-like planets are because the planets we can observe is such a small sample size relative to the universe.
 
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LaraLara

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2. Since we can't observe any other universe (especially not with any detail), there's no telling how likely or unlikely our universe is

.

If I understands the fine tuning argument right tinkering only a bit with the rules of the current universe would result in no matter forming or the universe collapsing instantly and the like. Given all the hypothetical values the natural laws could have the compexity in this universe is unlikely although I do not want to claim it is the most complex possible.
 
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LaraLara

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: a spinning motor is evidence for design even if its small or have a self replicating system.

If god made the world we should be able to learn something about it by investigating it.
 
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Subduction Zone

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why not? we know by experiments that a dog for instance will stay as a dog and cant evolve into something that isnt a dog. so this can prove that god exist. we also know that there are motors in some bacteria (an atp synthase for instance). again: a spinning motor is evidence for design even if its small or have a self replicating system.


No, spinning motors are not "evidence for design". They are only used in an ad hoc argument for design. Worse yet for ID followers the evolution of the rotator flagellum is fairly well understood now.

And the theory of evolution tells us that the offspring of dogs will always be dogs. "Change of kind" is a creationist concept based upon their ignorance of how life evolves. There is no "change in kind" in evolution largely because creationists cannot define "kind".

Look up the term "clade".
 
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PsychoSarah

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If I understands the fine tuning argument right tinkering only a bit with the rules of the current universe would result in no matter forming or the universe collapsing instantly and the like. Given all the hypothetical values the natural laws could have the compexity in this universe is unlikely although I do not want to claim it is the most complex possible.
-_- if all universes with only slightly different physics would collapse, then by definition, all universes that manage to exist for prolonged periods of time WILL be universes with physics like our own. Although, to emphasize my point more, since we don't know what the physics of other universes actually could be like, for all we know, literally all universes have the exact same physics. Again, without actually knowing all the possibilities a universe can have, there's no means by which to tell if we live in a "rare" universe or not. And if the number of universes is infinite, then any universe which isn't completely impossible will inevitably exist.
 
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LaraLara

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Although, to emphasize my point more, since we don't know what the physics of other universes actually could be like, for all we know, literally all universes have the exact same physics.

Great :) In this case there is a super rule decidining what values natural laws can take and that makes all universes fine tuned for life.
 
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xianghua

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Subduction Zone

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so this motor isnt an evidence for design then?:

spinning motor‏ - חיפוש ב-Google:



kind- a group of animals that where able to interbreed at the first place.


No life there in your motors link.

And no, you failed in your "kind" definition. Depending upon how many times sexual reproduction has evolved, and it may be several times. that is how man kinds there are. By your definition at the very least all vertebrates in fact all chordata is the same "kind".
 
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PsychoSarah

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Great :) In this case there is a super rule decidining what values natural laws can take and that makes all universes fine tuned for life.
Not really, seeing as "all universes having the same physics" was just a hypothetical possibility. My overall point was that we don't know enough to tell if our universe is likely or not.
 
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LaraLara

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Not really, seeing as "all universes having the same physics" was just a hypothetical possibility. My overall point was that we don't know enough to tell if our universe is likely or not.

I might be misunderstanding the argument but as I understand it every law in the universe has a value attached to it like how example how strong gravity is. Now if you give different values to this laws - and you could if there is no super rule preventing it - than you can create tons of universes that do not create anything more than particle soups. That is the comparision for the term "likely".
 
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AV1611VET

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Is life realy nothing special?
According to the sciences I would say YES, life is really nothing special.

Physical Science = mass & energy

Behavioral Sciences = fight or flight

Evolution = natural selection

Military Sciences = survival of the fittest

Medical Sciences = removable fetal tissue

Psychology = repressed libidinous impulses

Chemistry = $4.50 worth of elements

Zoology = cage and display for profit
 
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LaraLara

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According to the sciences I would say YES, life is really nothing special.

Physical Science = mass & energy

Behavioral Sciences = fight or flight

Evolution = natural selection

Military Sciences = survival of the fittest

Medical Sciences = removable fetal tissue

Psychology = repressed libidinous impulses

Chemistry = $4.50 worth of elements

Zoology = cage and display for profit

Nice example of compartmenalisation as we would call it in environmental sciences: you don't see the system you only see the parts.
 
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AV1611VET

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Nice example of compartmenalisation as we would call it in environmental sciences: you don't see the system you only see the parts.
I'm trying to see them as they see them.

I see life as precious, but "precious" isn't a scientific term.

When scientists employ tunnel vision with respect to their individual disciplines, it can be dangerous.

Even their students can pluto life down to nothing but chemicals & impulses.

Case in point: Which one wore the shirt that said NATURAL SELECTION? Klebold or Harris?
 
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Subduction Zone

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only if you assume that evolution is true. i only gave a definition.

Please, a little honesty would be appreciated. No scientists "assumes" that evolution is true. It has been shown to be true.

You were the one that gave the definition of "kind". Your definition works ONLY if evolution is true.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I might be misunderstanding the argument but as I understand it every law in the universe has a value attached to it like how example how strong gravity is.
-_- we are the ones that assign those values, and they aren't perfect by any means. Gravity occurs in a wave, so it fluctuates a bit. The numbers we assign to it are just good enough for the practical applications we utilize them for, not set in stone values. Also, we only even try to assign numerical values to items consistent enough to make it worth while.

Now if you give different values to this laws - and you could if there is no super rule preventing it - than you can create tons of universes that do not create anything more than particle soups.
Again, as I mentioned before, we have no idea what physics a universe can have or not. You could be right, and there are far more universes that just collapse very quickly and ours is a rare one. Or we could exist in the most common universe type. Additionally, if the number of universes isn't finite, statistical likelihood might as well be thrown out the window because all possibilities will exist in massive quantities.


That is the comparision for the term "likely".
I'm not sure how to further hammer in the point that we don't know enough about potential other universes to determine if ours is a likely one or not. Heck, for all we know, all universes cycle through multiple physics states until they reach a stable one. There are so many possibilities and so little information to narrow them down with that even conversing about "likelihood" is a pointless mental exercise at this point.
 
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LaraLara

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Again, as I mentioned before, we have no idea what physics a universe can have or not.



.

I disagree. Infinte possibilities for the values of the laws of a universe are mathematically more easily to describe than describing why the universe has the values it has. It is therefore the more simple and more likely theory that the universe had before its creation infinite possibilities in values of natural laws. Please as well refere to my post where I explain what makes a good scientific theory.
 
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LaraLara

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-

if the number of universes isn't finite, statistical likelihood might as well be thrown out the window because all possibilities will exist in massive quantities.


.

That is not a point a disagree with, I am trying to sort the bad ideas from the good.
 
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