Is Just War ever acceptable?

[RDKirk]

the idea of are going of their way to kill other people, who are unsaved, to get a temporal goal, is what seems the horrible thing about war to me.
Self-Defense and The Use of Force

Have you checked out the life of missionary Nate Saint?

He led a small mission to an extremely violent South American Indian tribe. They were so violent they were expected to wipe themselves out.

When Nate Saint and his group entered, the question of using a gun for self defense came up. Saint's opinion was: "I am prepared to meet my Maker. They are not."

And when the crucial moment came, Nate Saint refused to kill the man who speared him to death.

Years later, Saint's son went to carry the gospel to that same tribe. He was successful, and the man who killed his father--the man his father left alive--accepted Jesus and became like a surrogate father to him.

 

[Sammy-San]

Have you checked out the life of missionary Nate Saint?

He led a small mission to an extremely violent South American Indian tribe. They were so violent they were expected to wipe themselves out.

When Nate Saint and his group entered, the question of using a gun for self defense came up. Saint's opinion was: "I am prepared to meet my Maker. They are not."

And when the crucial moment came, Nate Saint refused to kill the man who speared him to death.

Years later, Saint's son went to carry the gospel to that same tribe. He was successful, and the man who killed his father--the man his father left alive--accepted Jesus and became like a surrogate father to him.

So you're saying some people who died in ww2 and vietnam lost their chance of salvation?

Jesus said more than not reject Him, so maybe it just made them join hell earlier on.

 

[RDKirk]

So you're saying some people who died in ww2 and vietnam lost their chance of salvation?

I don't know. But Nate Saint told the truth: A Christian is ready to meet his Maker, but he cannot know that anyone else is, nor should he choose to take away that possibility.

Jesus said more than not reject Him, so maybe it just made them join hell earlier on.

Not our judgment to make.

 

[Sammy-San]

I don't know. But Nate Saint told the truth: A Christian is ready to meet his Maker, but he cannot know that anyone else is, nor should he choose to take away that possibility.



Not our judgment to make.

What ifs are unknowable. You believe some of them would have gotten saved had they lived on?

nor should he choose to take away that possibility.

And regarding that, maybe social media (regarding suicides) has sent people to hell?

 

[RDKirk]

What ifs are unknowable. You believe some of them would have gotten saved had they lived on?

You just said that "what ifs" are unknowable, so why are you asking?

 

[Sammy-San]

Post edited.

 

[Sammy-San]

You just said that "what ifs" are unknowable, so why are you asking?

What about situations like these in war-they seem horrible and don't end a war faster.https://www.quora.com/What-are-incidents-where-soldiers-just-refused-to-fight-each-other

Fraternizing along the Pertersburg trench lines became very common. Then one day some officer stuck his nose into it and ordered somebody to start shooting enemies taking their ease in the open … retaliation followed and it got really ugly.

1. Proportionate means. Combatant forces of the opposition may not be subjected to greater harm than is necessary to secure victory and peace.

   
   
   WAR - What is the Christian perspective on war? • ChristianAnswers.Net

 

[RDKirk]

What about situations like these in war-they seem horrible and don't end a war faster.https://www.quora.com/What-are-incidents-where-soldiers-just-refused-to-fight-each-other

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. -- Matthew 10

Christians should be working from an entirely different table of ethical priorities.

 

[Sammy-San]

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. -- Matthew 10

Christians should be working from an entirely different table of ethical priorities.

What specifically do you mean by that verse in response to what i said? I was speaking of how horrible that situation was.

 

[RDKirk]

What specifically do you mean by that verse in response to what i said? I was speaking of how horrible that situation was.

Okay, yeah, that was a horrible situation.

 

[Sammy-San]

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. -- Matthew 10

Christians should be working from an entirely different table of ethical priorities.

Why didn't people in the Old Testament think of their enemies getting right with God?

 

[RDKirk]

Why didn't people in the Old Testament think of their enemies getting right with God?

The Mosaic Law provided for the conversion of others. Rahab, for instance.

 

[Francis Drake]

No. Your not getting it. A Christian calling the police does not mean they are directly condoning violence in any way anymore than they would be directly condoning violence by calling upon God for an angel to protect them (And that angel then is given permission from GOD to use lethal force by any means necessary to protect the believer). They are the same thing.

I think it is you Jason who is not getting it, and not thinking things through.
If you are a pacifist and believe in turning the other cheek, as many advocate on this thread, you cannot call the police!
Calling the police is not turning the other cheek, but is clearly condoning and committing violence by proxy.
If you or your family is being attacked, and the police come, they are very unlikely to just politely ask the person to desist, they will most likely resort to violence in very short time.

Even if you believe violence would happen only 10% of the time, unless you are a hypocrite, as a pacifist you cannot risk that possibility.
You should just turn the other cheek and let your wife and children be raped and beaten senseless because that is obviously the will of God!

Now, if a Christian had the power or ability to call a hit squad to kill people (and that was their only mission), then that would be different. Then that would be wrong. Police are not a hit squad. They can potentially use violence, but they are also called to resolve situations peacefully if they can.

Wrong. Police are clearly a hit squad, even if only 10% of the time!
And the other 90% of the time they succeed because of the legitimate threat of violence, which as Jesus makes clear is of equal sin to actual violence!
Sorry Jason, if you insist on turning the other cheek, you cannot get others to do your dirty work. Just grin and bare it. Maybe your wife and kids in time will recover after being beaten and raped because you just stood back and let it happen!

And on the occasion that the police manage to resolve a situation peacefully, it is most likely that violence has not already been the case. If violence is already there, then as I stated above, the police response will of necessity be violent. When lives are clearly in danger, there is little time for prissy negotiations, and the police response is to protect the victim, not to be nice to the perpetrator.
To claim otherwise is to live in cuckoo land, and goes completely against statistics.

The police are God's ministers of justice for those who do evil or wrong. That does not mean that all of the police department as a whole are saved individuals. They are merely tools or instruments used to carry out God's justice (Similar to when God used a pagan nation "Assyria" to punish Israel at one time in the past for their sins).

The police are a very modern invention, and you are making the mistake of projecting your modern view of society back thousands of years to the time the scripture was written.

So what do you suppose they did when attacked in bible times? Dial 911, or maybe go on social media?

While their family was being attacked, being holy and righteous citizens of heaven, maybe they just sat at the side and watched, but of course they had first sent a runner the ten miles or so to the nearest village.
But then the nearest village, having no militia sent another runner to the big city to wake up the garrison.
But being night time and they don't open the gates after sun down, the garrison commander didn't receive the messenger till the following morning after his breakfast.
After listening, the commander decides that to send a troop all that way several hours was a waste of time as the victim was likely already dead with his wife and kids on the way to someone's harem or slave market.
So bad luck pal, just send my condolences to anyone that's left.

Before police were invented, the government of God typically included the following.-
The national government, ie. kings and princes etc.
Regional government, ie. dukes or tribal leaders etc
City government, ie, tribal or clan leaders,
Local or village government, heads of families.

This is not meant to be precise, and can be listed in many ways. However you will find that local policing always came down to tribal heads and the heads of families or houses, including all those capable of bearing arms.

In God's eyes, the advent of policing in no way absolved family men from their judicial responsibility for defending law and order in their own house or that of their neighbours!

The Christian himself is not to act violently in any way. These are direct orders from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself and by His followers within the pages of the New Testament. A person either believes those words or they don't believe them (based upon human rationalization, etc.).

Then why did Jesus make a whip out of cords and violently drive the traders out of the temple?
Why did Paul command that Elymas was made blind for a season?
Also why didn't Paul just turn the other cheek when about to be flogged by the soldiers when he was arrested?

 

[RDKirk]

I think it is you Jason who is not getting it, and not thinking things through.
If you are a pacifist and believe in turning the other cheek, as many advocate on this thread, you cannot call the police!
Calling the police is not turning the other cheek, but is clearly condoning and committing violence by proxy.cked, and the police come, they are very unlikely to just politely ask the person to desist, they will most likely resort to violence in very short time.

Even if you believe violence would happen only 10% of the time, unless you are a hypocrite, as a pacifist you cannot risk that possibility.
You should just turn the other cheek and let your wife and children be raped and beaten senseless because that is obviously the will of God!

That's what Romans 13 is really about. Caesar--who is going to hell anyway--will use the sword to keep order in his own kingdom. But it is still true--Jesus did not lie-- that "those who live by the sword will die by the sword." That's why all human kingdoms are eventually brought to the ground.

 

[lismore]

When people's lives are on the line, those with the means to help must do so.

It's a difficult question. The only 'just war' that springs to my mind was that against Hitler. Even then the actions of the 'allies' were sometimes less than just. For example in sending refugees from the Soviet Union back to Stalin to be murdered, refusing requests from Zionist representatives to bomb to railway lines to the death camps and being led by an un-elected balloon who twice unleashed paramilitary forces on unarmed civilians, his own citizens. God Bless

 

[RDKirk]

It's a difficult question. The only 'just war' that springs to my mind was that against Hitler. Even then the actions of the 'allies' were sometimes less than just. For example in sending refugees from the Soviet Union back to Stalin to be murdered, refusing requests from Zionist representatives to bomb to railway lines to the death camps and being led by an un-elected balloon who twice unleashed paramilitary forces on unarmed civilians, his own citizens. God Bless

That war was not just, either, because goading an opponent to the point he attacks you is not "just war." The Treaty of Versailles was known even at the time as unjust and would inevitably force Germany back to war--whether there was a "Hitler" or not.

 

[lismore]

That war was not just, either, because goading an opponent to the point he attacks you is not "just war." The Treaty of Versailles was known even at the time as unjust and would inevitably force Germany back to war--whether there was a "Hitler" or not.

There are those who say the Treaty of Versailles was unduly lenient, given the great loss of life the First World War brought. As the French General Foch said:

"This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years".

Foch wanted a much tougher treaty, de-militarisation and breaking up of Germany, which indeed the Allies did after the Second World War.

God Bless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think it is you Jason who is not getting it, and not thinking things through.
If you are a pacifist and believe in turning the other cheek, as many advocate on this thread, you cannot call the police!
Calling the police is not turning the other cheek, but is clearly condoning and committing violence by proxy.
If you or your family is being attacked, and the police come, they are very unlikely to just politely ask the person to desist, they will most likely resort to violence in very short time.

Even if you believe violence would happen only 10% of the time, unless you are a hypocrite, as a pacifist you cannot risk that possibility.
You should just turn the other cheek and let your wife and children be raped and beaten senseless because that is obviously the will of God!

Wrong. Police are clearly a hit squad, even if only 10% of the time!
And the other 90% of the time they succeed because of the legitimate threat of violence, which as Jesus makes clear is of equal sin to actual violence!
Sorry Jason, if you insist on turning the other cheek, you cannot get others to do your dirty work. Just grin and bare it. Maybe your wife and kids in time will recover after being beaten and raped because you just stood back and let it happen!

And on the occasion that the police manage to resolve a situation peacefully, it is most likely that violence has not already been the case. If violence is already there, then as I stated above, the police response will of necessity be violent. When lives are clearly in danger, there is little time for prissy negotiations, and the police response is to protect the victim, not to be nice to the perpetrator.
To claim otherwise is to live in cuckoo land, and goes completely against statistics.

The police are a very modern invention, and you are making the mistake of projecting your modern view of society back thousands of years to the time the scripture was written.

So what do you suppose they did when attacked in bible times? Dial 911, or maybe go on social media?

While their family was being attacked, being holy and righteous citizens of heaven, maybe they just sat at the side and watched, but of course they had first sent a runner the ten miles or so to the nearest village.
But then the nearest village, having no militia sent another runner to the big city to wake up the garrison.
But being night time and they don't open the gates after sun down, the garrison commander didn't receive the messenger till the following morning after his breakfast.
After listening, the commander decides that to send a troop all that way several hours was a waste of time as the victim was likely already dead with his wife and kids on the way to someone's harem or slave market.
So bad luck pal, just send my condolences to anyone that's left.

Before police were invented, the government of God typically included the following.-
The national government, ie. kings and princes etc.
Regional government, ie. dukes or tribal leaders etc
City government, ie, tribal or clan leaders,
Local or village government, heads of families.

This is not meant to be precise, and can be listed in many ways. However you will find that local policing always came down to tribal heads and the heads of families or houses, including all those capable of bearing arms.

In God's eyes, the advent of policing in no way absolved family men from their judicial responsibility for defending law and order in their own house or that of their neighbours!

Did you miss my analogy about me praying to God for an angel to protect me and God telling that angel to use whatever force necessary to protect me? It is the same situation with the police except the players are different. Oh, and no. I do not know what country you live in, but here in the US, the police are not a hit squad. They don't shoot first and ask questions later. If you want to continue to argue otherwise, then have fun. But this is pretty obvious that they are not a hit squad. Maybe in some other countries they are; But not here.

Then why did Jesus make a whip out of cords and violently drive the traders out of the temple?

First, nobody was harmed physically. Second, nobody's lives were in any real danger. If Jesus shot flaming arrows into the crowd, they would more than likely would have arrested him for endangering the lives of others. In fact, if anyone was harmed, they would have used that against him at his trial. But that didn't happen now did it. Three, Scripture says all judgement will be given to the Son. We are told to turn the other cheek. We are told not to render evil for evil. Jesus is God and He is the judge. But He came not to judge but to save. One day Christ will return at His second coming and destroy all nations that come up against Him. But this is Jesus and this is not going to be saints who are still living out their faith following Him. The disembodied saints will follow Him out of Heaven.

Why did Paul command that Elymas was made blind for a season?

First, the blindness was temporary and not permanent. Second, this was a spiritual thing and it would be left up to God to carry this miracle out or not.

Also why didn't Paul just turn the other cheek when about to be flogged by the soldiers when he was arrested?

Last I checked, Paul did not act violently in Acts 22. Speaking to get out of a violent situation is not contrary to Christ's command to turn the other cheek.

 

[RDKirk]

There are those who say the Treaty of Versailles was unduly lenient, given the great loss of life the First World War brought. As the French General Foch said:

"This is not a peace. It is an armistice for twenty years".

Foch wanted a much tougher treaty, de-militarisation and breaking up of Germany, which indeed the Allies did after the Second World War.

God Bless

Not very Christian of him. It was short-sighted and vindictive, and thus unjust.

 

[Francis Drake]

That war was not just, either, because goading an opponent to the point he attacks you is not "just war." The Treaty of Versailles was known even at the time as unjust and would inevitably force Germany back to war--whether there was a "Hitler" or not.

Hitler was not goaded into attacking Poland. He made his intentions of military expansion from the very beginning of his political life. He continued to do so whilst virtually all political leaders were fawning over Germany's new charismatic leader.