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Is Jude 1:9 a reference to The Arial Toll Houses ?

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Jude1:3Contendforthefaith, Aug 14, 2020.

  1. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    *** YOU ARE IN THE EASTERN ORTHODOX FORUM ***


    Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

    Jude 1:9



    Maybe the devil was trying to harass Moses about killing the Egyptian in his youth or something like that.

    I just wanted to get your views on this.

    .
     
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  2. Xenophon

    Xenophon Active Member

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    Yes. That verse has often classically been ascribed to the toll-houses. It is a legitimate interpretation.
     
  3. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    it is one that's used, yes.
     
  4. BlighttownBob

    BlighttownBob New Member

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    No, it's a stretch. It is orthodox that the Father protects us with his angels against demons but it doesn't imply the Toll House doctrine.
    Pardon my harshness but how could one could pass a toll house about 'lies' and fail at 'slander' is beyond my understanding. How would one even get to pride, since a prideful person wouldn't pass the 'lies' one?
    It's not even legalism, it's thoroughly inconsistent and only feeds intellectual pride of peeping into the ineffable mysteries of eternal life to come.
     
  5. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    that's not how the toll houses work.
     
  6. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    This is one concept deeply held by many and (thankfully for some of us) avoidable for others. As quoted from an otherwise supportive explanation of this
    subject of the toll-houses is not specifically a topic of Orthodox Christian theology :


    http://orthodoxhistory.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Orthodox-Dogmatic-Theology.pdf


    “it is not a dogma of the Church in the precise sense, but comprises material of a moral and edifying character, one might say pedagogical.”

    The above is from Orthodox dogmatics by Fr Michael Pomezansky who supports the tolls but admits it is not an article of faith.

    There has been bitter arguments over the years on this concept & misguided animosity on both sides of it. I consider the statement by Fr Pomazansky a realization that there are many ( majority, minority? who knows?) of us who do not follow this doctrine. Neither view can call the other heretical & must just put up either way.
     
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  7. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    I think Times New Roman houses are even more controversial, and Comic Sans houses just irreverent.
    :p
    Seriously, though, I think the English speaker has a prejudice against the doctrine due to the English translation of the term. It sounds slightly ridiculous, unlike the Russian “mytarstvo” (MWEE-tarst-vuh) which is ancient and sufficiently foreign sounding to sound mysterious, as “mytar” (the person) translates as “Publican” in English, and all we can do is make jokes about republicans, as the word sounds truncated, but the word “publican” isn’t intended in the least to be connected to a political concept, whereas a toll does imply a fee to be exacted. Maybe if we called them something like “publicanias” they would sound a little less connected to the idea of toll booths.

    I think Yulia Voznesenskaya’s book “My Posthumous Adventures”, an Orthodox fictional excursion into an afterlife by a woman clinically dead, to contain the best imagery I have seen about what the idea could really mean in terms we could understand. Her description of the mytarstvo of fornication is unforgettable.

    Spoilers galore: My Posthumous Adventures
     
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  8. Xenophon

    Xenophon Active Member

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    Will have to check that book out.

    Wait, is it available in English?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  9. rusmeister

    rusmeister A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian

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    I don't know. I rather doubt it. The market for translations of Orthodox fiction into English is not exactly booming.
     
  10. Xenophon

    Xenophon Active Member

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    Well, some of her work is translated, but apparently not that one... sad...
     
  11. BlighttownBob

    BlighttownBob New Member

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    Analogies are to illuminate, not to misinform. St. Issac of Niniveh has the opposite and proper approach in saying that what is truly frightful is God's mercy, not his rectitude.
     
  12. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    the toll houses don't contradict this
     
  13. BlighttownBob

    BlighttownBob New Member

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    I don't see where could Grace fit in it. Further, which parable about debts does not go against the toll house that the soul could ever pay for its sins? Even the Lord's prayer does not fit with it.
     
  14. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    none of the parables go against the toll houses, neither does the Lord's Prayer. I don't get your point here.
     
  15. BlighttownBob

    BlighttownBob New Member

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    My point is that it is wrong as something literal and malicious as a metaphor. As something actual, there is no clear support for it. It is common to take any sign of a struggle after departure as the toll houses. The soul struggling after death like in Jude is not a toll house. The single text that describes them as the 20-21st century view is very dubious in origin. It fails the genetic analysis, but it could be true if it were consistent. Though it also isn't in any sense. Demons and angels are not and do not see themselves as equals and the latter needen't argue with the former. The prayers of the services instead talk about how hell and demons have been destroyed by Christ and we needn't answer to their powers. One should fear the judgement of God, not of demons.
    What is it for as a metaphor, then? It should at least be extremely useful and grounded to be an accepted parable, but it also is not. One can use as much euphemisms as one likes about how it is not doctrine, as if this phrase made any sense, but the ROCOR has admitted it is an "incentive" for the lukewarm to act better. Which is a nice way of saying it is a lie to bring about good and take the Church as a good manners club, something Christians are and have been accused of doing (Saint Paul talks about it in Romans 3:8). What I find particularly saddening is that a court session is seen as an efficient way of frightening the laity. In reality, forgiveness is more frightening than judgement, something toll house supporters and heterodox can't quite grasp.
     
  16. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    again, you're not handling the teaching as it's actually taught, or has been taught throughout the centuries. the detractors of the teaching are always over literalizing it, which we are told not to do.

    plus I agree we are not to fear the demons. that's not the point. any reading of St Ephraim of Syria makes this pretty clear.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  17. BlighttownBob

    BlighttownBob New Member

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    It has not been taught for the centuries, it's nowhere in the services. Again, a struggle of the soul is not a toll house.
    You did not get my point. Those who think it is literal I take to be merely misinformed, I believe it is even worse to take it as a parable.
    What is the teaching of the tollhouses, if not heresy? What can one learn with it? Absolutely nothing but that he is not a sinner. It might actually actively damn people, since absolutely no saint would go through it because they all said they were great sinners. They would fail at the second one as lies, at very least, would they not?
     
  18. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    The average layperson should be able to have salvation if the ancient & apostolic approach of the 2 ways is understood. These 2 ways concern the way of life & the way of death which seems to originate from Deuteronomy 30 ( particularly Deuteronomy 30:15) & is found in the late 1st c. manual: The Didache: Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson). and also at the conclusion of the Epistle of Barnabas.

    This ancient outline seems to be the basis for our prayer books. If we read our Bibles in accordance with the Lord’s commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 7:12 etc.) & follow Church teachings in our prayer books, ( I would think) we should be saved. Too many people do not even know enough to do this let alone worry about this questionable doctrine.
     
  19. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's not true.


    1. In The Octoechos we find a clear reference to the tollhouses. The eigth canticle from the canon at Matins reads, :

    "O Virgin, in the hour of death rescue me from the hands of the demons, and the judgment, and the accusations, and the frightful testing, and the bitter tollhouses and the fierce prince, and the eternal condemnation, O Theotokos."

    and

    2. the Octoechos,
    from the Canon for the dead:
    "When my soul desires to separate its bodily ties and depart from life, do Thou appear to me, O Mistress, and destroy the councils of the bodiless enemies, crush their jaws of those who seek to devour me: that I may without hindrance pass the princes of darkness, standing in the air, O Bride of God, "(Tone 2, Sat. Ode 9, Tr. 16)



    3. In the Canon of Supplication at the Parting of the Soul in The Great Book of Needs are the following references to the struggle of a soul passing through the toll-houses:

    "Count me worthy to pass, unhindered, by the persecutor, the prince of the air, the tyrant, him that stands guard in the dread pathways, and the false accusation of these, as I depart from earth." (Ode 4, p. 77).
    "Do thou count me worthy to escape the hordes of bodiless barbarians, and rise through the aerial depths and enter into Heaven…" (Ode 8, p. 81).
    "[W]hen I come to die, do thou banish far from me the commander of the bitter toll-gatherers and ruler of the earth…" (Ode 8, p. 81).



    4. In the Saturday Midnight Office, the prayer of St. Eustratius, contains the following:

    "And now, O Master, let Thy hand shelter me and let Thy mercy descend upon me, for my soul is distracted and pained at its departure from this my wretched and filthy body, lest the evil design of the adversary overtake it and make it stumble into the darkness for the unknown and known sins amassed by me in this life. Be merciful unto me, O Master, and let not my soul see the dark countenances of the evil spirits, but let it be received by Thine Angels bright and shining. Glorify Thy holy name and by Thy might set me before Thy divine judgment seat. When I am being judged, suffer not that the hand of the prince of this world should take hold of me to throw me, a sinner, into the depths of hades, but stand by me and be unto me a savior and mediator..."



    5. Canon to the Guardian Angel:

    "All my life I have spent much time in vain, now I approach the end: I pray thee, my keeper, be a protector to me and an undefeated champion, when I will pass the toll-houses of the ferocious keeper of the world" (Ode. 9, tr. 3)



    6. Small Compline, A Prayer to the Theotokos by Monk Paul:

    “And at the time of my departure from this life, care for my wretched soul and drive far away from it the dark forms of evil demons; and in the fearful day of judgment, deliver me from eternal torments, and present me as an heir of the ineffable glory of thy Son and our God.”

    .
     
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  20. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    it was taught by St Justin Martyr, so yeah, it's been taught. it's all over the place in the Philokalia, it's in the Ladder (which is a liturgical book), and it's mentioned in a lot of Akathists as well.

    so it's all over the place.
     
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