Is John 17:3 true?

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edpobre

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that you have come to the knowledge of the truth. On the contrary, these things are hidden from such peope as Jesus himself testified: "...I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in your sight" (Luke 10:21).

Ed
 
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Josephus

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Is that your only defense? You have nothing to say to counter the original Hebrew and Greek? You can't. It's not possible to counter it with something else unless you make up parts of the bible that aren't there, and translations usually do that. It doesn't matter if you use RSV, NIV, or KJV. The only thing that stands as accurate scripture is the very language it was written in, and the language keeps the first and third person transitional of "me", and "him" - indicating it is the SAME person talking who get's pierced, and we know from the previous verse that it is the Lord God who is talking.

It is in all love that I encourage you to stop your debate, and instead seek out the truth from the perspective of the bible, and not from the perspective of some translator. I don't know, but do you Ed consider it a sin to discover the truth as written in the bible for yourself? This means getting a bible with the original language, and buying a few translation dictonaries. Unless you do, then you will never discover truth if you cling to just one or two voices your ears itch to keep hearing because you like it. Only those who truly seek out the Lord find him. My ears don't itch, Ed. I listen to everybody and read everything. But in the end, I make the final decision. It is my eternal destiny after all, and I truly believe in God's promise to mankind that "those who draw near to him, he draws near to." I will seek, and there is nothing wrong with seeking without any bias except only two: God exists, and the bible is true. Aside from these two, have no other bias when you approach scripture Ed. If you do, then you will learn and come to learn a lot.

-Josephus


-Josephus
 
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edpobre

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Josephus,

You wrote:
Is that your only defense? You have nothing to say to counter the original Hebrew and Greek? You can't. It's not possible to counter it with something else unless you make up parts of the bible that aren't there, and translations usually do that. It doesn't matter if you use RSV, NIV, or KJV. The only thing that stands as accurate scripture is the very language it was written in, and the language keeps the first and third person transitional of "me", and "him" - indicating it is the SAME person talking who get's pierced, and we know from the previous verse that it is the Lord God who is talking.

The accuracy of any translation is tested against the truth.

The NIV renders Zechariah 12:10 thus: "...They will look on ME, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for HIM as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for HIM as one grieves for a firstborn son."

The RSV renders Zechariah 12:10 ths: "...when they look on HIM whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for HIM, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over HIM, as one weeps over a firstborn."

There is no denying that it is the Lord God speaking in this verse. But the NIV is mistranslated to make it appear that it was the Lord God who was pierced by using "ME" instead of "Him" so that the myth of God and Jesus being one and the same God may find some sort of Biblical support. If it was the Lord God that was pierced and hanging on the cross, who was He crying out to, saying: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

The truth is, God is spirit (John 4:24) and cannot be pierced. It was the Father speaking in Zechariah 12:10 and He was referring to His Son who was pierced and mourned as an only child and wept over as a firstborn. Thus, the RSV is the more accurte translation.

You wrote:
It is in all love that I encourage you to stop your debate, and instead seek out the truth from the perspective of the bible, and not from the perspective of some translator.

Do you understand what you are saying Josephus? Whose perspective is it that the Father is the only true God? Whose perspective is it that God is spirit (John 4:24) and has no flesh and bones as Jresus has (Luke 24:39)? Whose perspectibe is it that it was God who raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9)?

You are the one who's hanging on to some translator's perspective because it supports your false belief about Jesus and God.

You wrote:
... you will never discover truth if you cling to just one or two voices your ears itch to keep hearing because you like it.

Yeah, that's why you like listening to the NIV rendition of Zechariah 12:10 because it's what your itching ears want to hear - that God and Jesus are one and the same God.

You wrote:
Only those who truly seek out the Lord find him.

That's true my friend. That's why until now you have not found the only true God.

You wrote:
My ears don't itch, Ed. I listen to everybody and read everything.

But you listen only to those that your itching ears want to hear. Can you imagine God saying "me" they pierced and "him" they mourn just so Trinitarians ccan find support for their false belief?

You wrote:But in the end, I make the final decision. It is my eternal destiny after all, and I truly believe in God's promise to mankind that "those who draw near to him, he draws near to." I will seek, and there is nothing wrong with seeking without any bias except only two: God exists, and the bible is true. Aside from these two, have no other bias when you approach scripture Ed. If you do, then you will learn and come to learn a lot.[/quote]

I hope you truly believe the Bible especially John 8:40 and John 17:3 because knowing the only true God and knowing the one whom the only true God sent means eternal life.

Ed
 
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Josephus

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Ed, let's quit it with the translation debate:

let's get to the Hebrew:


And they shall look (Strong's 5027)
on Me

whom 834

they have pierced 1856

and they shall mourn 4553
for Him

as one mourns 5594
for

an only son 3173

and will be bitter 4553

over Him 5921

like bitterness 4843

over 5921

the firstborn 1060

The words "for Him" are different than "on Me." There is no connection, no same pronoun. There really is a change in the perspective within this one verse - and it's Hebrew! And we all know that the Hebrew scriptures are the most accurate copies of any known manuscript ever to exist!!! How can you debate against the actual Hebrew scripture? You are using inferior English translations. Only the Hebrew and Greek copies of the manuscripts originally penned are the best source for semantic authority. How can you say I'm trusting a translator when I am reading the very language of Hebrew itself? I've listed a few Strongs references in case you are unfamiliar with Hebrew.
 
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LouisBooth

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". But the NIV is mistranslated to "

I just think its funny how Ed is saying that people that have studied the bible all their life and have studied the hebrew and greek language all their life are wrong..next thing ya know ed will be predicting weather and the stock market too ;) Ed, you (I don't think so anyway) have the language background to say how something should be translated. You haven't studied greek or hebrew.
 
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edpobre

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Josephus/Louis,

As I said, the test of accuracy of any translation is the truth written in the Bible.

I cannot accept your allegation that the RSV, TEV and TLB versions of Zechariah 12:10 are wrong in favor of what you allege as original Hebrew or Greek texts because these versions (RSV, TEV, TLB) are consistent with ALL other versions of the Bible in so far as the identity of the only one true God is (John 17:3). They all point to the Father as the only true God.

All versions are also consistent in so far as God being a spirit (John 4:24) and without flesh and bones as Jesus has (Luke 24:39).

All versions are also consistent in so far as Jesus having a Father and a God (John 20:17).

If your version of Zechariah 12:10 is true, then it would mean that the Father is also the son who was crucified.That would make all the verses I quoted above false!

All scriptures are given by inspiration of God. Thus, no scripture or any translation or interpretation thereof must make another verse false.

Ed
 
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Josephus

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"I cannot accept your allegation..."

Don't accept my "allegation." Instead, call the RSV foundation as listed in your information section under the publisher's name.

Or better yet, ask your pastor which Hebrew text the RSV Old Testament is translated from, and he'll give you a dumb look. THere is no other Hebrew text - all Hebrew texts are the same because that is how it was copied throughout thousands of years. So the Hebrew text the RSV and other translations come from is the exact same Hebrew text I have in a hard-bound volume you can purchase from Sovereign Grace Publishers:

www.sovgracepub.com/bibles/interlin.htm

I challenge you to find another Hebrew text from which your RSV was translated from. You will not find it. The words are there. The NCCCA that made the RSV intentionally left out many key words, and translated many of them wrong to better suit a theological bias. The same is true to a smaller extent with the Needs Improvement Version (NIV), and pretty much any English translation.
 
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Josephus

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I also want you to see a page of what my bible looks like:

www.sovgracepub.com/bible.../page1.htm

after looking at it, you may want one. it is the only kind of bible like it that exists - because there is no need for other bibles like it because there are no other copies of the Hebrew scriptures! In fact, it is this book that the RSV translators referenced in building their translation!
 
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edpobre

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LouisBooth,

You wrote:
the word became flesh ed and dwelt among us..that should tell you it became a man this coupled with John the B's words in verses 15 and 30 should tell you its Jesus..its that easy.

WHAT was the WORD that became flesh?
The FLESH dwelt with us - NOT the WORD that became flesh.
John the Baptist says Jesus was BEFORE him. What do you THINK this means? Does it mean Jesus was God?

MESH with John 17:3 and John 8:40 my friend. Since Jesus says he is a man and the FATHER is the ONLY true God, John 1:15 and 30 mean that Jesus was in the MIND or PLAN of God before God even thought of sending John the Baptist. to prepare the WAY for Jesus.

Ed
 
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W

White Knight 777

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Jesus Christ, is the God of the OT.

From the beginning there is only a mention of two beings that said, 'Let US make man in OUR own image.'

Not One, not three, as in a Trinity!

In I Cor it states that it was Christ that was the rock that followed the ancient Israelities in the wilderness. It was also Christ that stated to the Hbebrews that they have NEVER heard God's voice or seen His shape.

Why is it so hard for moderns to put it together that the God of the Old Testament IS the same CHRIST that came to the ancient Israelitites?

Why is it that they CANNOT conceive that the same God that came to the Israelities in the ancient past, is the same one that came in the first century

WK
 
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LouisBooth

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"WHAT was the WORD that became flesh?
The FLESH dwelt with us - NOT the WORD that became flesh."

Umm..ed, that makes no sence at all. It says the word became flesh and dwelt among us, that meshes PERFECTLY with trinity docterine (see phi 2:5-8 for more details).

"John the Baptist says Jesus was BEFORE him. What do you THINK this means? Does it mean Jesus was God? "

Well, since John was born FIRST yeah I think he is saying that. How can someone born after you come before you? hmm?


"MESH with John 17:3 and John 8:40 my friend. "

See other posts in this thread, I have and so have others.

"John 1:15 and 30 mean that Jesus was in the MIND or PLAN of God before God even thought of sending John the Baptist. to prepare the WAY for Jesus."

No, Jesus was pre-exsistance and John 1:1 makes that clear. Also how can Jesus say before Abraham, I AM? This points to him saying he is God ;) Did you need us to list a few verses about Jesus' pre-exsistance?
 
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edpobre

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WK,

You wrote:
Jesus Christ, is the God of the OT.

From the beginning there is only a mention of two beings that said, 'Let US make man in OUR own image.'

Not One, not three, as in a Trinity!

Please show us the verse that says Jesus Christ is the God of the OT. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that the only Lord God is the Father who created everything (Is. 44:8; Is. 46:9; Ps. 100:3; Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8; Mal. 2:10; 1 Cor. 8:6; John 17:3).

The Bible also teaches us that Christ is the SON of God whom the only true God, the Father sent (Matt. 3:17; Matt. 17:5; Matt. 16:16; John 10:36; John 2o:31; John 17:3).

You wrote:
In I Cor it states that it was Christ that was the rock that followed the ancient Israelities in the wilderness. It was also Christ that stated to the Hbebrews that they have NEVER heard God's voice or seen His shape.

This only means that the ancient Israelites were looking forward to the day that Christ the savior is born and dies for them. The blood of Christ covers not only the sins of those who lived in his time but also those who lived before him and after him.

You wrote:
Why is it so hard for moderns to put it together that the God of the Old Testament IS the same CHRIST that came to the ancient Israelitites?

What you are saying cannot be true WK because Apostle Peter said that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). How then could Jesus Christ have existed before he was exalted to the right hand of God (Acts 2:33)?

You wrote:
Why is it that they CANNOT conceive that the same God that came to the Israelities in the ancient past, is the same one that came in the first century.

Nobody in his right mind could even think of what you are saying WK because the Bible says there is only one God and that only one God is not a man.

Jesus himself attests to this (John 4:24; John 17:3; John 20:17; Luke 24:39) and emphasized it in numerous occasions by praying to God the Father.

Apostle Paul also attests that it was God the Father (1 Cor. 8:6) who raised Jesus from the dead (Rom. 10:9).

Whoever taught you these things is a false teacher who will only lead you to the lake of fire.

Ed
 
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LouisBooth

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"Please show us the verse that says Jesus Christ is the God of the OT. "

how about this..before abraham, I am...that is the name of God in the OT and he applies it to himself.

"What you are saying cannot be true WK because Apostle Peter said that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). "

You're missing the context.

"How then could Jesus Christ have existed before he was exalted to the right hand of God (Acts 2:33)?"

Umm..does God have a right hand, much less a place there? Its an indication of power ed. ;)


"Nobody in his right mind could even think of what you are saying WK because the Bible says there is only one God and that only one God is not a man."

Actually the bible backs up what WK is saying ed.


Ed, show me a verse in which it says Jesus is NOT God and I'll believe you because I have shown you where it says he is God.
 
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edpobre

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LouisBoooth,

ED: "Please show us the verse that says Jesus Christ is the God of the OT. "

LB: how about this..before abraham, I am...that is the name of God in the OT and he applies it to himself.

You are adding to the verse what you think should be there. The verse simply says "I AM" and could mean several things other than he is God.

ED: "What you are saying cannot be true WK because Apostle Peter said that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). "

LB: You're missing the context.

Show me the context that could change what the verse is saying. God made Jesus Christ. How can Jesus be the Christ that is the God in the Old Testament?

ED: "How then could Jesus Christ have existed before he was exalted to the right hand of God (Acts 2:33)?"

LB:Umm..does God have a right hand, much less a place there? Its an indication of power ed.

The point is, how could Jesus have existed as Christ in the OT before he was exalted to the right hand of God?

ED: "Nobody in his right mind could even think of what you are saying WK because the Bible says there is only one God and that only one God is not a man."

LB: Actually the bible backs up what WK is saying ed.

Then why could not WK answer this?

You wrote:
Ed, show me a verse in which it says Jesus is NOT God and I'll believe you because I have shown you where it says he is God.

You have't shown me any verse that says Jesus is God. John 8:58 says: "Before Abraham was I AM." This verse does not say Jesus is God. John 10:30 says: "I and the Father are one." This verse does not say Jesus is God. There is not even any reason to infer that Jesus meant that he is God because Jesus has said that he is a man and the father is the only true God.

Ed

 
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