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Is John 17:3 true?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Aug 2, 2001.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,



    How sure are you that these aren't mistranslations? How come some versions of the Bible use "by him" and some use "through him?" Yet, they don't differ in the meaning of John 17:3!



    Who is the Holy Spirit that is God in addition to the Father? The Bible says the Father is spirit and He is holy. The Bible further says that the Father (God) has seven spirits that He sends out into all the earth. Who among these is God the Holy Spirit?

    I say, God the Holy Spirit is none other than God the Father because like the "WORD that was God" because it carried the power of God who SPOKE it, the "Holy Spirit is God" because it also carries the power of God from whom the spirit comes. These are only metaphors to describe the power of the WORD and the Holy Spirit.

    How could Jesus be also God in addition to the Father when he himself says he is a MAN? Moreover, he identified the Father as the ONLY true God!



    People say that all the time. That does not prove that they have God and it was God who answered their prayers. Remember that Satan is the present ruler of this world and if one is not a child of God, he must be a child of the devil. Of course Satan will strive to prove that even without God prayers can be answered - by him.



    Why don't you broaden your knowledge and look at other versions of the Bible. They are Bibles too and they give you a clearer rendition of the verse. And Jesus referring to himself in the third person is not at all strange. People do it all the time.



    Now this is strange - God praying to God and yet you say there is only one God! And you have twisted the verse
    around to change its meaning to what you think it should be.

    If this is what you believe the verse should be, why didn't Jesus simply say "that they may know YOU and ME as the only true God" or "that they may know YOU and Jesus Christ whom YOU sent as the only true God" or "that they may know US as the only true God in two persons?"

    Might it be that Jesus did not know how to construct his sentence in Hebrew or Greek yet? Or might it be that Jesus did not know what he is saying and you believe he is wrong!

    How come he repeated what he said in John 20:17 and told Mary that he is going to HIS Father and their Father, to HIS God and their God?

    And how come apostle Paul said there is only one God and that is the Father (1 Cor. 8:6). And how come both Paul and Peter say that the Father is the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:L3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3)?

    These questions cannot be answered by your twisted interpretation of John 17:3!



    Your attempts to justify the deity of Jesus is pathetic. Are you aware that Jesus told this only to children of God who have received the Spirit of adoption by whom they cry out "Abba Father?" (Rom. 8:15) And are you aware that Jesus promised his disciples (those who believe in him and abide in his words - they are members of his church) that he will send the Spirit of truth that comes from the Father to remind them of all the things he taught them?

    Ed
     
  2. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    "[about me answering prayers] People say that all the time. That does not prove that they have God and it was God who answered their prayers. Remember that Satan is the present ruler of this world and if one is not a child of God, he must be a child of the devil."

    Yes, but the fruit of the devil is not the fruit of the Spirit. What I have experienced in my life is the fruit of the Spirit: all of it - and all the prayers answered in my life has been to produce that kind of fruit. That is one of the ways how I test the spirits to see if they are of God. How do you test them?

    How would you test me being told to go to Scotland, trusting in God to provide money, obeying Him when he says to start packing anyway, finding $120 totally forgotten about long ago, meeting random homeless people, praying for someone to be off the streets and then watching from afar that prayer being answered as that person comes to realize how real God is, randomly meeting an American from my hometown who just happens to be searching for what is real in his life, happening to just have a piece of artwork in my hands to start the conversation with this artist, praying for God to somehow provide a way for my friend to get home in time, and arriving an hour and a half early on a 6 hour train ride - just 30 minutes early to catch the last subway. How do you explain that? Fun? Some twisted Satanic scheme to prevent people from entering the kingdom of God and searching for God? And my friend, these weren't just prayers answered; in fact these experiences also included divine appointments, commands to go, and instant ministry opportunities to share with people about God.

    Now you tell me, if your God is so real, then what has he been doing in your life recently? My God is alive, my God is so big I am just scratching the surface of who He is. My God loves me so much, and I can only hope for His grace to love Him back in the way that pleases Him most by living my life as a living sacrifice. I worship Jesus who is God, sent from the Father who is that same being God, and am now constantly in communion and fellowship with the Holy Spirit who teaches me more and more about Himself and who He is.

    I see miracles, I see mondo impossible prayer answered (one of my prayers is that if God wants me to go to England again he will do three things to confirm His will:
    1.Provide me a pocket bible as I gave my last one away.
    2.Provide me a laptop computer on which to write the book he has placed on my heart.
    3.Provide provision for me to go without me having to ask for it.

    The 1st was answered this way:
    "Ryan, I've noticed you haven't had your bible at all the times I've seen you at church."
    I told this person the story of how God led me to give mine away.
    She asked, "Do you need a bible?"
    I said, "Well, I just recieved this last week 12 hardback bibles! I know God has a sense of humor, but I'm still waiting for him to answer my prayer for a pocket bible."

    "What color do you want?"
    "What do you mean?"
    "I mean, I have like...five pocket bibles I've been wanting to get rid of. Would you like a couple?"

    ...and that is how I got it.

    The next thing: prayer for computer -

    My friends ask me what I will be doing next. I tell them. Then they ask me what I need. I tell them I need money. Then they ask me if I need anything else. I reluctantly tell them about my desire for a computer, but it isn't necessary - but it would be a nice gift from God. They said they would pray for me concerning my next trip to England.

    I wake up the next morning and didn't expect to have my friend say that he and his wife felt God leading them to buy a laptop for me! And as of two days ago, they found one for me.

    The third prayer? Provision? Hah! God is only getting started. Two random appointments with people who heard I was a missionary and they want to support me - and I didn't even have to ask! God keeps opening doors, and now the only thing remaining is one I haven't mentioned yet:

    that I can be released with my parent's blessing as I have to financially cover for them now that I am back home. My prayer is that when God wants me to leave, that will make a way.


    We are dealing with physicality here. Where is Jesus? With the Father. Then how can Jesus be with us?

    In Spirit.

    <><
    Ryan
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,

    Nice story. I have heard similar stories before but these stories don't convince me that God answers prayers of people who are not His own.

    God has said in Isaiah 59:2: "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

    That's why God sent His son to reconcile Himself to us through Christ. Thus, God hears only the prayers of those who have been reconciled to Him in one body through the cross.

    The presence of Jesus where two or three are gathered together in his name is not physical nor literal. However, when he comes again, those who are IN Christ will be with him wherever he is.

    Ed
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    Married
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    "That's why God sent His son to reconcile Himself to us through Christ. Thus, God hears only the prayers of those who have been reconciled to Him in one body through the cross."

    That's why his prayers are answered ed, Ryan has put his faith in God...:)
     
  5. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    You want photographs ed? I got em' - of the train station, of the free room and board, of the people who God had me meet, I even have a picture of the street with the bus stop where the homeless woman was. I can also post a picture of that art drawing of an African chief that my new friend gave me. I even have pictures to prove that God totally changed my plans from visiting friends that weekend to totally changing my circumstances in going to Scotland randomly. I can send you the emails. I can even give you phone numbers of the people I talked with - all short of me putting you in my shoes.

    You want proof of the cash? I got the train ticket reciept, and a printed copy of my empty bank account with no transactions in several days prior to me even thinking about Scotland.

    Want journal entries? I got those too.

    And this is just one adventure recently in my life.

    Hey, ED! Remember the LAST post here in this thread I posted that God had to provide a way to get out of supporting my parent's financial debt? Catch this: just last night my mom and dad told me they were getting rid of an extra car, and thus it would bring their debt from $600 a month to less than $50 a month! What do you say to that? Coincidence? No! God IS faithful, and he answers the prayers of those who earnestly seek Him.
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,

    The Bible talks of fruits of righteousness not material things. The material things that you say came from God are the devil's way of blinding you to the truth.

    If it comes to real material wealth, people who don't have fear of God are much more wealthy than people who think they are religious and God abiding.

    The Bible is the only proof that you have God. The Bible is the only proof that your prayers are answered. The Bible says one cannot be reconciled to God unless his sins are forgiven. And sins are forgiven only when one is redeemed by the blood of Christ. Since you are not in the true church of Christ where redemption is found, then you haven't been reconciled with God and God still doesn't hear your prayers.

    The Bible cannot be proven wrong by what you perceive as God's answers to your prayers my friend. The more you believe Satan's deception, the farther you are from God and that's what makes Satan happy.

    Ed
     
  7. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    "The Bible talks of fruits of righteousness not material things. The material things that you say came from God are the devil's way of blinding you to the truth."


    You know what, you are so correct in this. I totally thought you were wanting PHYSICAL proof of God answering my prayers. I'm sorry. I didn't mention at all the spiritual fruit that proved that those answers were from God:

    1. The lady recieved love, joy, and peace when I talked to her about praying for her.2
    2. As I left, I could sense in my heart that God was teaching her patience in seeing results of my praying for her, and the moment she thought her hope was gone, a young man in kindness dropped a wad of cashe I am sure probably meant a lot to him. Than man acted days before in self-control to not spend that money and waste it, but to instead hold onto it for some purpose he didn't know.
    3. Goodness is the fruit I personally recieved as I witnessed this entire event. I praised God for his goodness in providing for that lady and for letting me be a part of her blessing.
    4. As my bus turned around a corner, a woman was moved by compassion and in gentleness she stooped down and started talking with her, and in my heart I knew that that woman was going to ask her to spend the night off the street.

    I can give you an entire novel-like run down of ALL the fruit that happened as a result of this mission from God, but you may have to wait a few days for me to draft it all up.


    This is a confusing quote. First, I gave up my 33k/yr job at IBM last year, and my nice car, my nice house, and everything I owned (except my bed which was stored at my parents) to chase after what I felt God leading me to do. So much has happened that I'm glad I gave everything I had up for it. I don't mean to prod, but with what you believe can you say the same? Just like baptism is proof of our salvation and making Jesus Lord of your life, so too is what I have done in my life. Can you offer up some proof that you believe in what you believe?
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,

    Your account of your prayers being answered only proves my point that those without God are more materially wealthy than those who have God.

    You say John 17:3 is true yet you insist that Jesus is God. One who has God wouldn't do that. Would you?

    Ed
     
  9. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    You don't get it, do you? I LEFT my IBM job, went on a missionary journey for six months, came back and as of tomorrow I will be working for an online company with my own 3rd floor private office with a window, and more money than I know what to do with.

    My point Ed was to ask you if you can prove to me, by your actions either now or in the recent past, your faith in God. God may have me at this wonderful new dream job (even better than IBM - wow I am still in surprise shock at the blessing) for a time long or short, I don't know; I just know that when God says I it's time for me to go back to England (and I feel in my spirit that it's soon) then I WILL be ready to leave when God tells me to "go" again. That is my proof of my faith in God. I can burn all bridges and God will totally support me, if that is what He wants me to do. I love my God so much that I will go the ends of the earth, or come home when things are getting exciting, or God knows that I'll even be willing to die for him if that would serve His purposes. God does bless us as we need, and he blesses us in abundance according to His will.

    I am not poor, and my faith is not a measure of my finances. My faith is a mesaure of my relationship with God. Heck, I know a time is comming when God will even bless me with millions in which I will be in charge of to pass through to a Christian air carrier organization - millions which to me are simply a tool God uses and I will be blessed to have no need for it. In God's economy, money is not the most important thing and certainly not a gage of one's spirituality. I give God the glory for my life, not my abilities, not myself, but God alone as He uses me and blesses me with wonderful surprises. It is because our God is a good God that He teaches us to be content in both poverty AND riches.


    Ed, there are other verses in the bible than just John 17:3 ya know. There's a whole lot more in the bible, and it is with the rest of scripture that I take all other scripture in which I discern doctrine. I take the scriptures where Jesus says the Father is God, and I harmonize it with scripture that says Jesus is God. Somehow these scriptures must be reconciled with each other, without bending them, and just believing them for what they say. So where one scripture says God is the I AM, I must somehow reconcile that when Jesus plainly says he is I AM.

    Don't get stuck on one verse or a group of verses, Ed. Step out of the box for a minute and seriously consider that what I may be saying is true. If you do so, God won't condemn you to hell for it - after all He wants all of us to understand who He is, and to seek to understand Him.
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,

    You wrote:
    First, you distort what Jesus said in John 17:3. Jesus did not say “the Father is God.” Jesus said “the Father is the only true God.” You give the impression of a very intelligent guy by the way you describe your travels and your work, but you pretend not to know the meaning of the word “only.” Jesus meant to say that there is no other true God besides the Father.

    Second, you want to harmonize scriptures where Jesus says the Father is the only true God with scriptures that say Jesus is God. That’s like harmonizing apples with oranges but it’s okay, I’ll take you up on that. Show me a scripture that says Jesus is God.

    You wrote:
    Reconcile these “I AM” with John 17:3 Josephus: God says “I AM.” Jesus says “I AM.” The blind man also said “I AM.” Jesus says “the Father is the only true God.” Who among these “I AM” is the only true God?

    Why don’t you just believe John 17:3 for what it says? Why don’t you just believe John 5:58 for what it says? Jesus says “I AM.” Leave it that way. Don’t add the word “God” after it.

    You wrote: quote]Don't get stuck on one verse or a group of verses, Ed. Step out of the box for a minute and seriously consider that what I may be saying is true. If you do so, God won't condemn you to hell for it - after all He wants all of us to understand who He is, and to seek to understand Him. [/quote]

    What you are saying can never be true Josephus because John 17:3 is true. The Trinity doctrine is opposite what John 17:3 teaches. Where there are two opposing views, one may be true or both may be false but both can never be true.

    Ed
     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "First, you distort what Jesus said in John 17:3. Jesus did not say “the Father is God.” Jesus said “the Father is the only true God.” "

    Ed, the word "father" is never mentioned in that verse.

    "Show me a scripture that says Jesus is God."

    We have ed, how about Luke 5:20-21 ;)

    "The blind man also said “I AM"

    Scripture verse? I bet he said I am (something)..not just I am. ;) THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.


    "The Trinity doctrine is opposite what John 17:3 teaches"

    False statement. It fits PERFECTLY with John 17:3 and the rest of the bible.
     
  12. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    LouisBooth,

    What happened to your "context" Louis? have you forgotten all of a sudden? Why don't you back up to verse 1 to find out who Jesus was talking to?

    What you are saying Louis is utter falsehood. The verse doesn't say "Jesus is God." The verse only records the false statement of the Pharisees that only God can forgive sins. They did not believe Jesus when he said that he "has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Mark 2:10).

    I posted a new topic for you to explain and let everybody know how you can make the Trinity doctrine perfectly FIT John 17:3. I dare you to do that.

    Ed
     
  13. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    "What happened to your "context" Louis? have you forgotten all of a sudden? Why don't you back up to verse 1 to find out who Jesus was talking to?"

    lol, alrighty. now we're thinking on the same page. Take that same statement and apply it to Zechariah 12:10 when it is God saying "me the one they have pierced." God was pierced? Musta been Jesus. Musta meant that Jesus was God.


    "The verse only records the false statement of the Pharisees that only God can forgive sins."

    What scripture do you have to prove this? Who else can forgive sins?

    "They did not believe Jesus when he said that he "has authority on earth to forgive sins" "

    Well, wouldn't it stand for logic that only God can forgive sins, and thus that's why Jesus can?


    "I posted a new topic for you to explain and let everybody know how you can make the Trinity doctrine perfectly FIT John 17:3. I dare you to do that."

    Read the Greek, ed. Notice there are no commas. Next, read the english version of the verse and notice that Jesus never uses "me." It's as if Jesus is talking beside himself.
     
  14. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Josephus,

    You wrote:
    My Revised Standard Version RSV) renders it differently Josephus: "...when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born."

    You should start comparing your KJV with other versions of the Bible if you are truly seeking for the truth.

    You wrote:
    Jesus said in Mark 2:10: "But that you may know that the son of man has power on earth to forgive sins." Did Jesus have this power because he is God?

    Let's hear Jesus explain, thus: "...All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth" (Matt. 28:1:cool: .

    Thus we now know that somebody gave Jesus the power or authority to forgive sins. That "somebody" is none other than God as we can read in Acts 5:31, thus: "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

    You wrote:
    The commas do not make any difference Josephus. The truth remains that eternal life means: 1) knowing the Father, the only true God; and 2) knowing Jesus Christ whom the only true God sent.

    Ed
     
  15. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Thus we now know that somebody gave Jesus the power or authority to forgive sins. That "somebody" is none other than God as we can read in Acts 5:31, thus: "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.""

    Umm..yes so? :lol: God gave it to him because accordint to Phil 2:5-8 Jesus empties himself of EVERYTHING ed, including the ability to forgive sins. The on earth reference was really lame ed. Sounds like a drowning man.

    "The commas do not make any difference Josephus. "

    spoke as someone that doesn't understand greek or hebrew at all....
     
  16. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    I do not HAVE a KJV, ed. I HAVE the Greek copy of the bible from which your very own RSV is translated from! It is BETTER than your translation because my bible is not a translation! So, what do you say to that? I can tell you that in the very Greek which YOUR bible is TRANSLATED from, it reads "me" not "him" - but "him" is included in the same sentence. Your translators probably thought this was confusing, and thus "corrected" the subject to make "better sense" rather than translating word for word what it actually says: which is indeed something confusing if you are holding to a particular theology (like Jesus isn't God). But I choose instead to take for what the bible reads literally in the Greek and when I do, I see a depth of meaning and understanding in the "curious" passages we have in English.

    I'd rather trust in the original language of the scriptures, than in someone's biased translation which "compensates" for "confusing passages."

    So don't tell me my bible is wrong. If my bible is wrong, then yours is too because your bible is based off of mine.

    Yes, Jesus already had power. He was never given POWER. But Jesus was GIVEN authority later on. Jesus had the power, but the person of Jesus did not have the "authority." There is a MAJOR difference between power and authority.

    In English, commas can make the difference between salvation and heresy.
     
  17. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    Gentlemen,

    You need to remember that the Old Testament was in Hebrew, not Greek.

    Looking at Zech. 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. (Note: This was from KJ Version. I did not use this translation to prove the trinity, but rather to show how translators can influence what is read and understood. - note added 8-27)

    Hebrew - English

    shaphak {shaw-fak'} - pour, pour out
    bayith {bah'-yith} - house, household
    David - David
    yashab {yaw-shab'} - inhabitant
    [email protected] {yer-oo-shaw-lah'-im} - Jerusalem
    ruwach {roo'-akh} - spirit
    chen {khane} - grace
    tachanuwn {takh-an-oon'} - supplications
    nabat {naw-bat'} - look, behold
    daqar {daw-kar'} - thrust through, pierced
    micepd {mis-pade'} - mourning
    caphad {saw-fad'} - mourn, wail
    yachiyd {yaw-kheed'} - only, only child, only son
    marar {maw-rar'} - bitterness
    marar {maw-rar'} - bitterness
    [email protected] {bek-ore'} - firstborn

    If the translators didn't have an exact word in their language, they typically used a word that had the closest meaning. They would also add words that they think would help to make the translation easier to read. A translation is not an exact word for word situation.
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    Yes, that is our point. Ed is basing his theology on EXACT ENGLISH WORDS. ;) thanks for that translation though. The NT was written in greek (in all likelihood).
     
  19. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    dmmjr/Josephus,

    The NIV and KJV versions of Zechariah 12:10 do not jibe with the truth. According to Jesus, God is spirit (John 4:24) and has no flesh and bones like he has (Luke 24:39).

    If the one speaking in this verse is the one who was nailed on the cross, who was Jesus praying to when he cried out "My God, My God" on the cross? Who as Jesus praying to in John 17? Who is the Father and God that Jesus is going to in John 20:17?

    The RSV, TEV and the TLB versions of the verse are more accurately translated than what you are looking at.

    Ed
     
  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    :lol: okay..now certain translations are "off limits" too..do you know greek ed? Are you saying that these men with Ph Ds are not better equiped to translate then you are? okay..now that is funny ;) By the way ed, Ryan said he was looking AT THE GREEK.
     
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