Is John 17:3 or the Trinity a doctrine of Christ?

[edpobre]

Friends,

Apostle John wrote in 2 John 9 that "whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the son."

Most professing Christians however regard John 17:3 as subject to the Trinity doctrine. My question is, is John 17:3 a doctrine of Christ? How about the Trinity? Is it a doctrine of Christ?

Ed

 

[Josephus]

I kind of have a curious question, ed: I don't mean to hijack this thread, but my question is a good one: do you have a personal relationship with God? I mean, does he like, speak to you? Has he answered your prayers? Doctrine is great and all, but our relationship with God shouldn't be locked inside the ivory tower of apologetics, right? I mean, how exactly is God real to you? Or have you ever considered that?

 

[LouisBooth]

personally I'm thinking this falls under spam, the repeated posting of one topic.

 

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote:

I kind of have a curious question, ed: I don't mean to hijack this thread, but my question is a good one: do you have a personal relationship with God? I mean, does he like, speak to you? Has he answered your prayers? Doctrine is great and all, but our relationship with God shouldn't be locked inside the ivory tower of apologetics, right? I mean, how exactly is God real to you? Or have you ever considered that?

Anyone can say they have a personal relationship with God. As a matter of fact, this is the standard answer I get from people who know that John 17:3 is a doctrine of Christ but refuse to acknowledge it because of their fanatic belief in the Trinity and the deity of Jesus.

This is like saying I have a personal relationship with Madonna because I talk to her every night before I go to bed and I dream of her almnost every night. The question is, does Madonna even know I exist?

Does God acknowledge that you have a personal relationship with Him? The only way to find this out is through His WORD, the Holy Bible. The reason God sent Jesus is to redeem those under the law that they may receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5).

In other words, after God got angry at ancient Israel, nobody was a son of God until God sent His Son. Thus, one who has not been redeemed by the blood of Christ does not have any relationship with God.

Col. 1:13-14 says that redemption and forgiveness of sins can be found only in the kingdom of God's son. That kingdom is the church that Christ purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the church the Christ gave his life for (Eph. 5:25). And everyone who has been reconciled to God are found in one body (Eph. 2:16) which is the church and Christ is its head (Col. 1:1 .

God does not hear the prayers of those whose sins have not been forgiven. This is what the Bible says in Isaiah 59:2. I find no basis for your saying that God answers your prayers my friend. Anyone can make things up and I believe you are only fooling yourself into "making-believe" that God answers your prayers.

This kind of false security which doen't have any Biblical basis at all only leads to eternal condemnation.

Ed

 

[LouisBooth]

"Anyone can say they have a personal relationship with God. "

Umm...so? I can say I'm the president of the US..but that doesn't make it so.

"The question is, does Madonna even know I exist?"

Exactly ed, that's why it takes TRUE FAITH.

funny you should bring up gal 4 in gal 3 Paul says this, "Before this FATIH CAME..and also says You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus..

"Col. 1:13-14 says that redemption and forgiveness of sins can be found only in the kingdom of God's son. That kingdom is the church that Christ purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the church the Christ gave his life for (Eph. 5:25). And everyone who has been reconciled to God are found in one body (Eph. 2:16) which is the church and Christ is its head (Col. 1:1 ."

I agree Ed, but NOWHERE in there does it mention the words church of Christ

 

[Josephus]

Yes, but my question is, do you?

If I'm a heathen, then I want to know how you know your religion is right - maybe because I want to believe, but I need to know if it's really true, that is, if you have experienced what I hope does exist: real personal two way communication relationship with God. If you're not getting it, then I want no part of it because ed, that is what I'm after. Not some rulebook. If you're telling me you don't have that with God, then everything that you're saying is just about as good as claiming Allah is true because it's in the Koran. If your religion (indeed your relationship with God) isn't any more real than an Muslim's, then why as an unbeliever should I even bother going your way if I can "get" the same "nothing" from the Koran?

So simple question: yes or no - do you or do you not have a deep personal two-way communication love relationship with your God?

If you can't be honest with that question and answer with a simple yes or no, then I suggest you consider leaving this board because no one is going to believe your version of the truth until you prove by your own testimony that what you say is true. As an unbeliever, I want a testimony, ed, not words on paper. Words are good, but if I can't know that this Jesus and Father you talk about is real to you, and how -then your ultimatly responsible at this moment in time for my rejecting of the truth.

I know of no evangelist or missionary who has gone and witnessed about Jesus without having a personal experience and knowledge of what they are talking about. You would be first I know, if this describes you. So, I just wanna know: do you or do you not have a personal two-way communication and deep relationship with the Father or Jesus? If so, I'd like to know how you know. If not, then I'd like to know how you may think why.

<><
a seeker of the truth from the one God sends...if that is you ed, then give me the truth I need and prove Jesus to me through you.

Josephus

 

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote:

As an unbeliever, I want a testimony, ed, not words on paper. Words are good, but if I can't know that this Jesus and Father you talk about is real to you, and how - then your ultimatly responsible at this moment in time for my rejecting of the truth.

No wonder you are easily fooled by pastors and evangelists who fool people by pretending to have personal relationship with God and Jesus despite what the Bible say aboiut them. There is no use talking to you if you regard the Bible as only words on paper.

You wrote:

I know of no evangelist or missionary who has gone and witnessed about Jesus without having a personal experience and knowledge of what they are talking about. You would be first I know, if this describes you. So, I just wanna know: do you or do you not have a personal two-way communication and deep relationship with the Father or Jesus? If so, I'd like to know how you know. If not, then I'd like to know how you may think why.

I have never believed pastors and evangelists who say that they talk to God in their dreams. I have never believed pastors and evangelists who say they have a personal two-way communication and deep relationship with the Father or Jesus based on what they perceive - NOT on what the Bible says.

Listen to what God says to these people: "Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Do not listen to the words of the prophet who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes; they speak visions of their own minds, NOT from the mouth of the Lord" (Jeremiah 23:16).

The only way that one may have two-way communication and deep relationship with the Father is by becoming an adopted son of God. And the only way one can be related to Christ or have union with him is by becoming a member of his body, the church.

Your testimonies are lies. You, the pastors and the evangelists you talk about, have not become adopted sons of God because you have not been redeemed by the blood of Christ (Gal. 4:4-5). Your sins have not been forgiven so God does not listen to your prayers (Isaiah 59:2).

You are not related to Christ either because you have not entered the church, his body of which he is the head (Col. 1:1 . The church ws purchsed by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28 Lamsa). It is only INSIDE the church of Christ that redemption by Christ's blood is found, the forgiveness of sins (Col.1:13-14).

I am a member of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, Christ's true body or church in these last days. As such, I have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and have received adoption as son of God. As son of God, I am heir of God and joint-heir with Christ. This is my testimony and I'm sure about it because God says so and it is written in the Bible.

Ed

 

[LouisBooth]

umm..ed you're not making any sence...

" I have never believed pastors and evangelists who say they have a personal two-way communication and deep relationship with the Father or Jesus based on what they perceive"

"The only way that one may have two-way communication and deep relationship with the Father is by becoming an adopted son of God. "

These are contradictions.

"I am a member of the Iglesia Ni Cristo"

Wow ed, so I have to go to that specific church to be saved? What about people that have died BEFORE the chruch of Christ demoination came into exsistance?

 

[lucypevensie]

Edpobre--"The only way that one may have two-way communication and deep relationship with the Father is by becoming an adopted son of God."

Lucy--In what way do you communicate with God one on one? Do you mean that's ALL you do to have one-on-one communication--become an adopted son of God? What then? How does one maintain one-on-one communication? Josephus has given multiple examples of how he and God communicate with one another. How do you do it? If I were to choose between yours and Joe's christianity, I'd have to say that joe's is so VERY tangible--It is not a false perception of mine that I see Josephus has a deep relationship with God. I am not blind--I know when things "just happen" and when things look suspiciosly super-natural, and when you have a miraculous string of events happen, like what happened to Joe on his trip I think we would be wise to at least consider that there may be something special between Josephus and God. (How's that for a run-on sentence?) Don't you agree?

I know that a relationship with Christ is not something to "sell" ie. whosever looks the most appealing is the one we should follow. However the Bible does say that by their fruits you shall know them. Joe's "fruits" look pretty realistic to me.

 

[Josephus]

Ed, alright. You've convinced me. I'm going to seek out my nearest Church of Christ (though one doesn't exist - I'm sure if I call a pastor they'll let me start one here because I want to get saved TODAY, because God knows I could die tomorrow).

I'm dead serious ed. I believe everything you say. I am now fully convinced of what I should believe and that everything you say is correct, and I think I should call someone to let them know that I've been converted. Can I be saved this instaneously, or do I have wait a grace period before I can find a church to join? What if I die tomorrow? How soon can I be saved? And will these voices in my head telling me to do good things stop?

 

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

Ed: " I have never believed pastors and evangelists who say they have a personal two-way communication and deep relationship with the Father or Jesus based on what they perceive"

"The only way that one may have two-way communication and deep relationship with the Father is by becoming an adopted son of God. "

LB: These are contradictions.

Of course they are! Pastors and evangelists say they have a two-way communication with God based on what they like to believe. The Bible says one has to be redeemed by Christ's blood before his sins forgiven in order for one to be reconciled to God. And one becomes an adopted son of God only after one is reeemed and one's sins are forgiven and reconciled to God..

You wrote:

Wow ed, so I have to go to that specific church to be saved? What about people that have died BEFORE the chruch of Christ demoination came into exsistance?

Only the Iglesia Ni Cristo Louis not just any church of Christ denomintion. The Iglesia Ni Cristo is the one and only true church of Christ and it is not a denomination of any existing church.

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Lucy,

Unless one has been redeemed by the blood of Christ and reconciled to God in one body (Eph. 2:16), one cannot receive adoption as son of God (Gal. 4:4-5).

And unless one's sins are forgiven, God does not listen to one's prayers, God hides His face and won't listen (Isaiah 59:2). Thus, there cannot be any two-way communication or deep relationship.

I don't blame you for falling for Josephs' fairy tales of God answering his prayers. False teachers, like con artists are good at this. Thus why lot of people are victimized by false teachers and con men.

God gave you intelligence to know what leads to eternal life and what leds to eternal damnation. Use it wisely.

Ed

 

[LouisBooth]

"And one becomes an adopted son of God only after one is reeemed and one's sins are forgiven and reconciled to God.."

Exactly, but you said that they do the same things so you where contradicting yourself.

"The Iglesia Ni Cristo is the one and only true church of Christ and it is not a denomination of any existing church."

So does the church name have to be in spanish too or is that a mix of languages..maybe some latin? What's the regualtions on home many pews you have to have So all current churches are wrong since its not the demoination of any one church?

You still didn't answer my quesiton about what about all the people before the church of christ came into exsistnace, because that's what you advocate..you have to go to "my" church.

 

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

You wrote:

Exactly ed, that's why it takes TRUE FAITH.

funny you should bring up gal 4 in gal 3 Paul says this, "Before this FATIH CAME..and also says You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus..

What does "faith in Christ" mean Louis? What does it take to have TRUE FAITH? I'm not sure you really know what you are talking about.

Ed: "Col. 1:13-14 says that redemption and forgiveness of sins can be found only in the kingdom of God's son. That kingdom is the church that Christ purchased with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa), the church the Christ gave his life for (Eph. 5:25). And everyone who has been reconciled to God are found in one body (Eph. 2:16) which is the church and Christ is its head (Col. 1:1 ."

LB: I agree Ed, but NOWHERE in there does it mention the words church of Christ

Does it mention YOUR church either? Do you belong to the church that Christ built?

Ed

 

[edpobre]

LouisBooth,

Ed: "The Iglesia Ni Cristo is the one and only true church of Christ and it is not a denomination of any existing church."

LB: So does the church name have to be in spanish too or is that a mix of languages..maybe some latin? What's the regualtions on home many pews you have to have So all current churches are wrong since its not the demoination of any one church?

Do you think the church that Christ built was called by a name in English? Common sense tells us that it must have been called by a name in the language of the place where it was built. Apostle Paul called members of this church "churches of Christ" (Rom. 16:16) presumably in the language that was in use in Paul's place of ministry at that time.

The true church of Christ is called Iglesia Ni Cristo in the place where the church re-emerged as designated by God.

You wrote:

You still didn't answer my quesiton about what about all the people before the church of christ came into exsistnace, because that's what you advocate..you have to go to "my" church.

What happened to the people who rejected Noah's invitation for them to enter the ark? Were they saved from the flood? Ancient Israel was the only nation of God. God commanded Israelites not to inter-marry Hitites, Amorrites, Caananites, Jesubites whom God considered as NOT His people. Do you take that against God Louis?

I am in these boards to share the truth about God's plan of salvation, which involves: 1) doing His will of gathering together everything in one body, the church (Matt. 7:21; Eph. 1:9-10); and 2) entering the flock by Christ to be saved (John 10:9).

The church or body of Christ in the first century ceased to exist after the apostles died. Between the time that the Catholic church took over and the time that the church or body of Christ re-emerged at the place and time designated by God, everyone was apart from Christ, without hope and without God in the world (Eph. 2:12).

Today, that re-emerged body or church of Christ is the Iglesia Ni Cristo in whom there is redemption through Christ's blood, the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:13-14). This is where people of all races, nationalities, color and gender are gathered and reconciled to God (Eph. 2:16).

Toward this end, everyone is invited to enter this flock by Christ's doctrines in order to be redeemed by the blood of Christ and receive adoption as sons of God (Gal. 4:4-5). As children of God, members of the Iglesia Ni Cristo are heirs of God (Gal. 4:7) and co-heirs of Christ (Rom. 8:17) in God's promise of inheritance.

I take personal pleasure in extending to you this invitation my friend.

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote:

Ed, alright. You've convinced me. I'm going to seek out my nearest Church of Christ (though one doesn't exist - I'm sure if I call a pastor they'll let me start one here because I want to get saved TODAY, because God knows I could die tomorrow).

The Iglesia Ni Cristo is the only true body or church of Christ. You can find this church in 70 countries and the true gospel is preached in about 120 languages. Perhaps there is one locale church near the place where you reside. Check it out before it is too late. As you said, you could die tomorrow. John Kennedy, Aahliya, Princess Diana, they all died unexpectedly.

You wrote:

I'm dead serious ed. I believe everything you say. I am now fully convinced of what I should believe and that everything you say is correct, and I think I should call someone to let them know that I've been converted. Can I be saved this instaneously, or do I have wait a grace period before I can find a church to join? What if I die tomorrow? How soon can I be saved? And will these voices in my head telling me to do good things stop?

If you are truly serious about your salvation Josephus, I suggest you look into the yellow pages under "Churches" and look for the Iglesia Ni Cristo. Talk to the minister assigned therat and you will get all the answers you need to know.

Ed

 

[Josephus]

Last I heard, there weren't any "Yellow Pages" in Afgahnistan. What if I want to move to Afgahnistan? Heck, what if I was in Afghanistan already? Does God care that all people there have access to the Inglesia Ni Christo? Or just God care that they simply recieve Him as their Lord and Savior?

Heck, what if I lived on the space station, or was assigned to live on Mars for the duration of my life? Do I just go ahead and invent an Inglesia Ni Christo while I'm there - especially if I'm the only member?

Ridiculousness doesn't seem to suit an infinite God. I prefer to lean on the side that God makes his salvation available to everyone, even when a preacher isn't around. This is promised to everyone on the planet, the American Indians, African tribes, remote jungle villagers, - all people who thoughout time it was not physically possible for them to hear the gospel message - are you saying that God predestined them for hell? Or is the bible correct in saying that "no one is without excuse" for knowing God? Romans 1:20.

 

[edpobre]

Josephus,

You wrote:

Last I heard, there weren't any "Yellow Pages" in Afgahnistan. What if I want to move to Afgahnistan? Heck, what if I was in Afghanistan already? Does God care that all people there have access to the Inglesia Ni Christo? Or just God care that they simply recieve Him as their Lord and Savior?

Only the Bible can give you answers to your questions my friend. The Bible says Christ purchased the church with his own blood (Acts 20:2 . The Bible says Christ gave his life for the church (Eph. 5:25). The Bible says Christ is the savior of the church (Eph. 5:23). Jesus says he who enters the fold by him will be saved.

The Iglesia Ni Cristo is that church my friend. There are Iglesia Ni Cristo members all over the world trying their best to share what I'm sharing with you in this board. You reject what I'm saying and go to a place where you cannot meet any Iglesia Ni Cristo member, you won't have a second chance. If Jesus comes tonight, all I can say is tough luck, you blew it!

However, if you could show me where in the Bible it says that one can be saved by simply recieving Jesus as our Lord and Savior, then I would simply go back to my old Baptist friends and have a party.

You wrote:

Heck, what if I lived on the space station, or was assigned to live on Mars for the duration of my life? Do I just go ahead and invent an Inglesia Ni Christo while I'm there - especially if I'm the only member?

You are lucky you are not on Mars and you were given the opportunity to learn about the true church of Christ. You don't have to invent any church because it is already existing. All you have to do is learn everything you want to know about it then make an intelligent decision. You have nothing to lose.

You wrote:

Ridiculousness doesn't seem to suit an infinite God. I prefer to lean on the side that God makes his salvation available to everyone, even when a preacher isn't around. This is promised to everyone on the planet, the American Indians, African tribes, remote jungle villagers, - all people who thoughout time it was not physically possible for them to hear the gospel message - are you saying that God predestined them for hell? Or is the bible correct in saying that "no one is without excuse" for knowing God? Romans 1:20.

The Bible tells us that there are only two classes of people. Those who are INSIDE the church of Christ (they are called IN Christ) and those OUTSIDE the church of Christ (they are called the WORLD). Those who are OUTSIDE, God judges (1 Cor. 5:13).

Those who are INSIDE or IN Christ will meet Jesus in the air and will be with him forever (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

Your belief that God makes His slvation available to everyone even without a preacher is false. Apostle Paul asks in Rom. 10:14-15, "How then shall they call on him whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?"

But don't worry about the WORLD in remote areas my friend. Jesus promised that "...this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the WORLD as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come" (Matt. 24:14). Jesus' promise does not say that ALL the WORLD will believe the gospel and will be converted before the end comes.

The gospel has been preached to you. You are not expected to believe before the end comes.

Ed

 

[ZoneChaos]

Many people on this board have shown you just that, but your belief in your church has blinded you from seeing it.

You say "Show me where..." I say we have.. re-read all these posts.

You don't have to invent any church because it is already existing.

Give the man a cigar!!! Ed, look at what you wrote there, my friend.

The "Church", aka, the Body of Christ existed long before the "Inglesia Ni Christo". Who invented what here? the church existed before your fancy title... so why seperate yourselves by adopting the title? The fact that your church hase a "name" suggests that your church hasn't always existed, but rather came about as a result of a disagreement in the existing Christian Faith and Doctrine. By creating a seperate body of people apart from the Chruch, you have proven that your church is not valid.

"...this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the WORLD as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come" (Matt. 24:14).

Ed, you are really showing your lack of knowledge of the Bible here. Fist, in your previous post you say that the belief that God can reveal Himself to anhone, regardless of them being preached to is false. You can beleive that if you want, though the Bible teaches otherwise.

Second, you then try to use Matt. 24:14 to defend the satement you make, but Matt. 24:14 is not talking about "now". Matt 24 is talking about what is to come, during the endtimes, during Tribulation. Matt 24:14 does not apply to now, it does not apply to pre rapture... and thus does not support your view.. wich invalidates your view that a person must be "preached at" in order to be saved, becasue it no longer has the backing of scripture.

 

[LouisBooth]

"What does "faith in Christ" mean Louis? What does it take to have TRUE FAITH? I'm not sure you really know what you are talking about."

I know exactly what I'm taking about ed. To have true faith is to truely belive and that is only between you and God, no one else can tell but they can make an "informed" guess.

"Does it mention YOUR church either? Do you belong to the church that Christ built?"

What's your point here ed? I never said you had to belong to my specific church. YOU did. So that's not a "good" response to my question. oh..and Yes I do.

"The true church of Christ is called Iglesia Ni Cristo in the place where the church re-emerged as designated by God."

Umm.well then you should have a hebrew or greek name..don't think those are either.. Besides, Paul never advocated that you had to be part of a specific church, only that you have faith in Christ. Just look at the beginning of his letters.

"Do you take that against God Louis"

Okay, you totally dodged the question Ed. Answer it please.

"The church or body of Christ in the first century ceased to exist after the apostles died. Between the time that the Catholic church took over and the time that the church or body of Christ re-emerged at the place and time designated by God, everyone was apart from Christ, without hope and without God in the world (Eph. 2:12). "

Okay so EVERYONE between those time periods of your church went to hell? Whatever ed, give me a break, that is false teaching at its best.

"I take personal pleasure in extending to you this invitation my friend."

Thanks Ed, but I'm already saved, by faith alone, though Christ's blood I have already been sactified in the eyes of God. I am saved