LDS Is Jesus White?

[devin553344]

The Book of Mormon is racist. Should they rewrite it?

Perhaps, but we're debating Jesus color and what we think he looks like, so when we meet him we're more relaxed?

 

[DamianWarS]

Your interpretation of the scripture is one of a number of interpretations that have been applied to the scripture.

ok

Lacking in historical fulfillment.

can you unpack this more

I see the eternal king of heaven and earth sitting on His glorious throne. A wonder to behold and He is love itself personified a blinding and brilliant explosion of love that engulfed the universe.

A revelation of love far beyond understanding.

That is a glorious sight indeed, but I would suggest God is greater than what you see and greater than what Daniel saw. We know what is described in visions, we know the incarnation, but no matter how great those things are, God is still greater. Daniel doesn't describe flesh so whatever he saw wasn't the incarnation since the incarnation is uniquely flesh (it's what the word means).

 

[John P. Alexander]

Not all middle easterners have dark skin.

I know. I go to a church filled with them.

Indeed. Some Middle Eastern people are "whiter" than those of Western European ancestry.

 

[timothyu]

"Funny... He doesn't look Jewish" ...Blazing Saddles

 

[John P. Alexander]

Here's a photo of Kurdish children in Iraqi Kurdistan, for example:

Common Misconceptions about the Middle East and Middle Eastern Culture

 

[Rescued One]

Perhaps, but we're debating Jesus color and what we think he looks like, so when we meet him we're more relaxed?

Who wants to be relaxed instead of in absolute awe?

The reason I mentioned the Book of Mormon, is because Mormons believe it. Dark skin was a curse. It was formerly taught that the Lamanites would become white if they repented. Now they will become pure instead.

Why would Mormons change the color of Mary's and Jesus' skin? They weren't cursed.

Book of Mormon, Alma 3
6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.

7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.

9 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.
Alma 3

Why was the curse put upon the children? Mormons say children are pure and innocent.

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7
22 And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
Moses 7

 

[Rescued One]

Here's a photo of Kurdish children in Iraqi Kurdistan, for example:

Common Misconceptions about the Middle East and Middle Eastern Culture

Thank you for the information. Skin color doesn't matter to me, but I love new information!

 

[devin553344]

The reason I mentioned the Book of Mormon, is because Mormons believe it. Dark skin was a curse. It was formerly taught that the Lamanites would become white if they repented. Now they will become pure instead.

When I tried to do online research regarding that topic I read something similar.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Not true.

Joseph Smith is known to have ordained a handful of blacks to the priesthood as part of an effort at a racially-integrated clergy. Problem was, he started doing this during the Missouri period, and so there are those who argue that "the prospect of a racially-integrated clergy in the middle of a so-called 'slave' state" is a key part of what kicked off the Missouri Conflict.

Individual blacks may or may not have been ordained after his death, and blacks of Melenasean (spelling?) descent were allowed the priesthood in the 1950s.

There weren't any restrictions on black membership in the church, just on the priesthood... and you'll readily find people who question whether or not the ban on priesthood was ultimately the result of the on-the-ground situation in Africa and what might have happened to the church if the priesthood had been integrated.

None of this refutes what I said. Why wouldn't Jesus have white skin when we see within Mormonism that God gave as a curse to Cain's descendants and the Laminites that darker or black skin is a punishment?

What I was referencing was what Brigham Young said on the matter of blacks or coloured people being unable to hold authority in the Church. As a Prophet of God who declared that blacks shouldn't be priests and was enforcing God's will this presents more a problem to Mormons than it does to us outside of the LDS.

Why was God okay with blacks being ordained during Joseph Smith's time, changed it during Brigham Young's time and only then changing it when it became politically and socially untenable in the 20th century? Why does God seem to view darker skin as a Punishment? Would this not preclude Jesus from being anything other than a white skinned man within Mormonism?

Have... you even read the Book of Mormon?

A specific dissident group was marked with darker skin as a last-ditch effort to avert what could have been a catastrophic civil war. Things went from there.

And I highly doubt you'll find anything about Asians or Middle Easterners.

I've skimmed the book of Mormon, it doesn;t hold much value theologically or historically but I know of it's contents and that I'm not wrong when I said the Laminites were cursed with dark skin. This is what Mormons consider the modern native Americans to be, the descendants of of a people so wicked that God changed their genetic make up to appear darker.

I also never said that the Book of Mormon said anything about Middle Easterners or Asians. I merely conjectured that given darker skin tones of those population groups it would appear that they have more an inheritance with Cain that Europeans do or North Eastern Asians or Turkic peoples. After all, within Mormonism black people are the descendants of the murderer Cain and

I therefore conclude that it seems likely, within Mormonism's framework, that Jesus was not dark skinned. It also makes more sense to suppose that Jesus looked like a white native American since the only thing God changes about them in the Book of Mormon is their skin tone to reflect their evil nature.

My question to you is, do you actually believe skin tone is a curse from God?

 

[miggles]

Jesus was not white or black. he was of the JEWISH race, which is something that many have are hard time accepting.

 

[dzheremi]

Jesus was not white or black. he was of the JEWISH race, which is something that many have are hard time accepting.

What skin color are these Jewish people?

And what about these Jewish people?

Jews are ethnoreligious group that come in every different color -- including black and white.

 

[Ironhold]

I found this passage regarding teachings of the presidents of the church, Lorenzo Snow:

President Lorenzo Snow also recounted this intense brightness. While walking through the Salt Lake Temple one day with his granddaughter, President Snow told her that he had seen the Lord in the temple. His granddaughter explained: “Grandpa told me what a glorious personage the Savior is and described His hands, feet, countenance and beautiful white robes, all of which were of such a glory of whiteness and brightness that he could hardly gaze upon Him” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow, p. 239)

Although it's kinda unclear I think. But may go along with the white Virgin Mary description provided.

It's my understanding that at one point "white" was a common synonym for "pure", so I wouldn't take the account as literally as you're taking it.

 

[Ironhold]

None of this refutes what I said. Why wouldn't Jesus have white skin when we see within Mormonism that God gave as a curse to Cain's descendants and the Laminites that darker or black skin is a punishment?

The situation with the Lamanites was an extreme response in order to get the two groups to separate out so that they wouldn't try to kill each other before their colony was stable enough to survive.

The BoM has it going back and forth as to which group was the more righteous, with sometimes the *Lamanites* being the more righteous of the two and a Lamanite prophet being given the task of telling the Nephites about the life and death of Christ.

This is why I ask how much of the BoM you've read.

What I was referencing was what Brigham Young said on the matter of blacks or coloured people being unable to hold authority in the Church. As a Prophet of God who declared that blacks shouldn't be priests and was enforcing God's will this presents more a problem to Mormons than it does to us outside of the LDS.

I've seen a dire shortage of primary source documents on this one, leading me to wonder if the priesthood ban wasn't simply a bit of realpolitik God had to allow because the world was so screwed up at that point.

The church had tried a racially-integrated priesthood in Missouri, and it contributed to people being killed. The church tried again in Illinois, and Joseph's presidential platform even included a resolution for slavery. Now they're in Utah, which Congress flagged as a "slave" territory in order to keep the number of free & slave states / territories equal. And oh by the way, Africa itself is tightly under the grip of colonial powers who wouldn't be very happy about any religious group promising an integrated priesthood.

Instead, the church got a foothold in Africa via the British colonial possessions and Mormon foreign aid workers in other parts of the continent. The seeds for the church's presence in the continent were sewn right under the noses of the colonial powers, such that when the last colonial power was gone from the continent there were already large numbers of people ready to get the priesthood right then and there.

There's actually a history of the church working within existing systems, however oppressive or nonsensical, and successfully finding ways to flourish while biding time for better days.

This is why, for example, while mainline Christian groups had smugglers trying to get Bibles past the Iron Curtain we were walking right through the front door: the local church officials found ways to work within the Stalinist system, lay up seed, and reap the harvest.

There's actually one story about a bishop in a congregation behind the Iron Curtain. The local bureaucrats and secret police (et al) would frequently pop in to sacrament meeting in the hopes of catching them doing something "disloyal" to the Communist system. Thing is, these politicos didn't realize that the fancy vests and blazers they were wearing cost more than what the average member of the congregation could afford, almost immediately marking them as a spy. "Put Your Shoulder To The Wheel" would be the first hymn to be sung that day, and upon hearing it the spy would go home happy that everyone was a good little Communist & not bother paying attention to details.

 

[devin553344]

It's my understanding that at one point "white" was a common synonym for "pure", so I wouldn't take the account as literally as you're taking it.

Same here for the virgin Mary?

The Nephites communicated in even plainer language. About 600 years before the birth of Jesus, Nephi said:

“… I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

“And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me. …

“And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

“And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

“And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!” (1 Ne. 11:13–15, 18, 20–21.)

The language above for the virgin Mary exactly matches the language used in the dark skin curse in 2 Nephi 5:21-23 regarding white people:

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. 23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

Noting he uses the descriptor "exceedingly fair" with the skin color "white".

The Point I'm attempting to make is that if LDS believe Mary was white, then Jesus would have to be also. Or is there something to debate?

 

[renniks]

I was wondering what LDS followers believe about this. Is Jesus middle eastern and therefore dark skinned or white in LDS belief?

I know that the pictures of Jesus in LDS church houses are white. So I wondered about this belief.

Thoughts and debate regarding the OP only please. I would like to keep this a scriptural debate:

Um. He was Jewish. I think that answers the question. A better question is why it even matters? Nevermind, I'm not LDS.

 

[devin553344]

The appearance of Jesus is relevant to a challenge of LDS scripture and beliefs.

 

[Ironhold]

Same here for the virgin Mary?

The Nephites communicated in even plainer language. About 600 years before the birth of Jesus, Nephi said:

Translation isn't an exact science.

People seem to forget this.

Holding to the same concept, "white" could again have been used by Joseph Smith as the nearest English equivalent of the word that was intended.

 

[devin553344]

Translation isn't an exact science.

People seem to forget this.

Holding to the same concept, "white" could again have been used by Joseph Smith as the nearest English equivalent of the word that was intended.

Interesting, that puts us on more of a common ground

Although regarding 2 Nephi and the LDS book of Moses: I'm more of the belief that God loves diversity, and that is why he created different colored people. I'm not really believing in a cursed black Cain or cursed dark skin Indian people.

 

[BigDaddy4]

It's my understanding that at one point "white" was a common synonym for "pure", so I wouldn't take the account as literally as you're taking it.

Yes, that's the typical lds cop out. Sure would be nice to have a copy of the original source document in Reformed Egyptian so we could understand the original intent, wouldn't it? You know, like we have with the Bible manuscripts.

Oh, and it sure would be nice if you had a reference for your "understanding" to validate this "common" usage. Otherwise, we'll just have to go with what was actually written (and then subsequently and conveniently changed).

 

[Ironhold]

Yes, that's the typical lds cop out. Sure would be nice to have a copy of the original source document in Reformed Egyptian so we could understand the original intent, wouldn't it? You know, like we have with the Bible manuscripts.

Oh, and it sure would be nice if you had a reference for your "understanding" to validate this "common" usage. Otherwise, we'll just have to go with what was actually written (and then subsequently and conveniently changed).

Did you have to study "Heart of Darkness" in school?

I did, and a major recurring theme of the book is the author inverting "white = pure, black = impure". That's when I first became aware of the usage back in the 1800s.