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Is Jesus God? Part 3

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ZoneChaos, Nov 24, 2001.

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  1. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Once again, I am going to put all of the threads about this topic under this new thread.

    Outstanding issues:



    From Who is God's God?

    Archieve: "If God is the God of himself, then I am my Mother."

    Balron's response: "That's different. God has always existed. He is the source of all things. Therefore, God is the God of Himself. The Son (the Word, or logos) existed in the beginning with God, and He was God. He was not a created being like you or your mother."

    From God has a Father, Angels and A Throne

    Louisbooth:
    "There is two Gods in heaven, according to the Trinity believers."

    Not really, there are the father, the son and the Holy Spirit..all distinct but ALL ONE GOD.

    Archieve:

    In the verse I have stated, It's Jesus talking. You say Jesus is God.

    So, answer me, who is he referring to as His God, His Father?

    From How come there are two God's in Heaven?

    Archieve:

    Break down what the Father mean then.

    ZoneChaos:

    The Father as pertaining to God:

    He is the Father of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler

    He is the Father of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector

    He is the Father of spiritual beings and of all men

    He is the Father of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father

    He is the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has begotten, and has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature since before time.
     
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  2. Further proof that Jesus is God:

    Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

    Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

    Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.


    Jesus is referring to himself as God. Explain away that, ed! I'm awaiting to see how much you can twist around this scripture to fit your heretical doctrines.

    Don't go saying: "Jesus is a man!" like you always do. Of course He is a man, but He's also God. You keep saying that it's "impossible" for someone to be both man and god. Do you limit the power of God, ed? Don't you think that the same God that created the universe and everything in it couldn't take human form?
     
  3. Another thing, Ed. You denied that the prophecy about "Emmanuel" came true, because Jesus wasn't named Emmanuel. The thing that you don't understand is that Immanuel was a symbolic name. Jacob was given the symbolic name Israel, and Abram was called "Abraham". Same thing with Jesus, his symbolic name: God with Us. How do I know it was fufilled in Jesus? Because the Bible says so.

    Read Matthew 1:22-23

    Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

    Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

     
  4. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    So God is symbolically with us.
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Blalron,

    You wrote:


    This only goes to show that you read the Bible with Trinity-tinted glasses.

    Jesus was quoting scriptures ("it is written again..") just as the devil was quoting scriptures (for it is written) that are recorded in the Old Testament.

    In Mattew 4:6, the devil was quoting Psalm 91:11-12 which points to God's promise to those who place their trust in Him. The devil is obviously taunting Jesus to put God's PROMISE to the TEST.

    And in Matthew 4:7 KJV Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:16 where Moses admonishes the Israelites NOT to "tempt" God as they "tempted" him in Massah. Did the Israelites really "tempt" God? Is this what Moses really meant?

    The Today's English Version (TEV) renders Deuteronomy 6:16 and Matthew 4:7 thus: Deut. 6:16 - "Do not put the Lord your God to the test as you did at Massah."
    Matt. 4:7 - Jesus answered, "But the scripture also says, 'Do not put the Lord your God to a test."

    Is Jesus the Lord God referred to in Deuteronomy 6:16? Isaiah 63:16; Isaiah 64:8 and Malachi 2:10 identify the Lord God as the FATHER.

    Since God the Father identifies the CHILD that was born as His SON (Matt. 3:17; Matt. 17:5), and Jesus said he is the SON of God the FATHER (John 5:18; John 10:36), then Jesus was NOT referring to himself as God.

    You wrote:


    How many times have I pointed out your FALSE assumptions resulting from your WRONG understanding of what Jesus says. Like the Pharisees you NEVER stop MIS-INTERPRETING Jesus.

    Why don't you just BELIEVE what Jesus says and come out of your FALSE church?

    You wrote:


    After Jacob was ACTUALLY named Israel and it stayed that way. Abram was ACTUALLY named Abraham andto this day, Abram is known as Abraham.

    Except for Isaiah 7:14 which foretold that his name will be called Immanuel or "God with us" and Matthew 1:22-23 which reiterated the prophecy, there is nothing else in the Bible which says that the name given to the CHILD that was born is Immanuel. On the contrary, the name given to him is JESUS, a name above evry other name (Phil. 2:9-1).

    Thus, the name "Immanuel" or "God with us" attributed to Jesus does NOT mean Jesus is God. It only means that Jesus is the WAY for man to be brought back to God and for God to eventually live with men (Rev. 21:3).

    Ed
     
  6. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

    +0


    I pose you the same question Ed about your false and heretical teachings.



    We are not in the INC so we don't need to come out. And we DO believe what Jesus says.
     
  7. They had two names. The closest we come to understanding this is in Native American culture. We are familiar with such names as "Running Bear," or "Pretty Eagle, "or "White Owl" as names. These names meant something and were far more descriptive than "Bob," or "Tom," or "Sue."


    When we come to Isaiah 7:14, we encounter a prophecy about the Messiah stating that his name will be Immanuel. Immanuel literally means "God is with us." This is a significant because Jesus is God in flesh:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1,14).

    For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9).

    Matthew 1:22-23 which reiterated the prophecy and said that it WAS fufilled:

    "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

    Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."


    God was with us in the flesh when Jesus became a man. Stop deluding yourself by twisting the scriptures.




    That wasn't what the prophecy was talking about though. Isaiah 7:14 was literally fufilled when God became flesh and dwelt among us as was stated in Matthew 1:22-23.
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "there is nothing else in the Bible which says that the name given to the CHILD that was born is Immanuel. "

    So since it shows up in only one place it isn't true..now you're calling the bible a liar ed, so ..umm..you're wrong.
     
  9. "Those who testify in heaven are three, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit and these three are one." (I John 5:8 )
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    The problem with you Louis is you only read what you post then call me names.

    If you read my earlier post on this subject, you will see that the name "Immanuel" is a description of Christ's mission on earth - to bring people back to God.

    You accuse me of making the Bible a liar but you cannot prove that. On the other hand, I have positive proof that you are making Jesus a liar.

    Jesus said he is a MAN (John8:40). Jesus said the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

    YOU say Jesus is GOD.

    YOU say the FATHER, the SON and the Holy Spirit IS the ONLY true God.

    Besides showing yourself as a BLIND follower, you also show yourself as ANTICHRIST who desperately strive to make Jesus and the Bible LIARS.

    And you have the nerve to call me that!

    Ed
     
  11. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Ed, what you have above... does not disprove this...



    John 8 and John 17 are not the positive proof you claim you have. We are still waiting for that.

    The trinity Doctrine accetps the verses you wuote from these two chapters.

    Also, Immanuel, is "God with us". You can either take that as meaning God with us, or you can taek than to mean "Us with God", as your interpretation of this name does.
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "You accuse me of making the Bible a liar but you cannot prove that. "

    Col 2:9 says that jesus is God, you say he's not, so you're saying the bible is lying. Check the greek for the SPECFIC words and what they are saying.

    "Besides showing yourself as a BLIND follower, you also show yourself as ANTICHRIST who desperately strive to make Jesus and the Bible LIARS."

    :lol: you're the false teacher here ed, we have shown it many many times. According to your own beliefs you're not even a messenger.....
     
  13. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

    +0


    Ed read this passage and realize you have no room to talk: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    ed, you're not a liar, but you have been lying, hope that clears up my statements.
     


  15. I am not a BLIND follower, Ed. Are you one?

    Tell me, Ed, do you believe these verses of the Bible?

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.





     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    hehehe..you left out one of my fav Blalron...Col 2:9 "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity (yes capitlalized implying a name or title) lives in bodily form"
     
  17. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for playing, Ed, but I'm sorry you came up short. Your consolation prize is to leave the INC and its lies and then get saved.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Where are you Prince Jeff? I miss your posts.

    Ed
     
  19. Havoc

    Havoc Celtic Witch

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    It's rather dificult to reconcile the Christian claim of having "the absolute truth" when you can argue two radically different positions of a major point of Doctrine using the same scriptures. It sort of points to the possibility of all of your doctrine being more a result of flawed human interpretation than Divine revelation. It also points to the possibility that neither of you are correct and the actual truth lying elsewhere.
     
  20. Grizzly

    Grizzly Enemy of Christmas Supporter

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    Good point Havoc.  I think it really points to the impreciseness of the bible.

    But I have to admit that in this particular case, I think Ed's position makes more sense.  If you accept the trinitarian position then you have to take a number of strange positions and answer some strange questions. 

    1) you have to accept that jesus was both 100% man and 100% God.  As anyone who has taking grade school math can attest, this is not possible.

    2)  When Jesus went off  by himself to pray, who was he praying to?  Was he praying to himself?  Makes no sense.

    3) When Jesus went off into the desert and was tempted by the devil.  If Jesus is God, then who cares?  How do you tempt God into sinning.  Can't be done. 


    4) It is said that Jesus led the perfect life and therefore his death was the perfect sacrifice.  Once again, if Jesus is God, then who cares?  How hard is it for God to lead the perfect life?  I would say it would be pretty easy.  But if Jesus were a man.....


    5) When Jesus was on the cross, he cried out " Eloi, Eloi, Lema Sabachthane?"  He was clearly suffering here and was crying out to God.  If he were God, why is he crying out to himself.

    6) Jesus died on the Cross.  How can you kill God? Impossible.

    7) The salvation story.  If Jesus is God, then the Salvation story boils down to "God sacrificied himself to appease himself".  Makes NO sense.

    I have to admit, Jesus as Man makes the story fit alot better.
     
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