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Is Jesus God? Did Jesus ever claim to be God?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Quasar92, Oct 3, 2017.

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  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Father and Jesus are two separate entities. The exclusive name for the Father is YHWH, and the exclusive name for Jesus, is Yahshua. The capitalized "Lord" is used for both the Father and the Son. Take note of the names and titles for both the Father and the Son: Ps.110:1; 1 Cor.8:6: 1 Tim.2:5 and Rev.19:16.

    The English word "Lord" appears 8012 times in the King James Version. In the Old Testament, the most common Hebrew word translated "Lord" is "YHWH," probably pronounced "Yahweh" and also transliterated as "Jehovah." This is the personal name of the Hebrew God. This word occupies about 3/4 of the occurrences of "Lord" in the King James Version.

    Here is the reason it has been rendered "Lord" instead of "Yahweh": In fear of disobeying the commandment to not use Yahweh's name in vain, eventually Jews started reading it as "Adonai" instead (Adonai means "my lord"). When the Old Testament was translated into Greek (the Septuagint), the Greek word "Kurios" (Lord) was used. The Hebrew manuscripts (Masoretic texts) of the Old Testament maintained the word "YHWH," but ascribed to it the pronunciation "Adonai." For these reasons, the modern Bibletranslators usually translate "YHWH" as "Lord."

    It is no surprise that the main word translated "Lord" in the NT is the Greek word "kurios," which is used to refer to both Yahweh and Jesus Christ.
    Read more:

    From: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_time ... _the_Bible



    Quasar92
     
  2. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. If only the Father is YHWH (and Jesus isn't), we would have at least two different Gods then. The Father and Jesus are two different Persons, but they are the same God, YHWH.

    I do agree, though, that "LORD" in the OT refers to both the Father and the Son, since it means YHWH.

    Jesus applied the name and identity of YHWH to Himself in John 8:58.
     
  3. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Father and the Son are two very specific separate entities. Review Jn.14:28 17:3 and 5. Jesus is never found in the Scriptures with the exclusive name of the Father, of YHWH/Yahwey. From another source:

    The Sacred Name of God

    BA / September 4, 2013 / Biblical Studies, Tracts
    A study of names in the Bible is both instructive and inspirational. Bible names have meanings that are apparent in Bible language but not in English. In Bible times, a name was much more than a means of distinguishing one person from another. People back then understood the significance of a name. They believed it should identify something special about the person. They considered that a name represented a person’s nature, circumstances and/or character.

    For example, take the name Nabal, which means “fool.” Nabal, the man, was a fool (1 Samuel 25:25). Abram means “father,” but God changed his name to Abraham, meaning “the father of a multitude” (Genesis 17:5), in keeping with God’s promise to make his descendants more numerous than the stars of heaven (15:5). Moses was named for his rescue from the Nile River: “She named him Moses [drawn out], saying, ‘I drew him out of the water’” (Exodus 2:10). Jacob’s name was changed to Israel “because you have struggled with God and men and have overcome” (Genesis 32:28).

    Almighty God’s Name

    In the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, God’s name appears as YHWH. In our E0nglish translation, it is rendered “Lord” (in capital letters). The four consonants, YHWH, are thought to have been pronounced “Yahweh.” The Jews did not pronounce YHWH because they considered it too sacred and did not want to run the risk of profaning it. Whenever they read the Scriptures and came to YHWH, they would substitute Adonai, meaning “Lord,” or Elohim, meaning “God,” depending on the context.

    The Septuagint, a pre-Christian Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, translated YHWH as kurios, meaning “Lord.” Several popular versions of the English Bible render YHWH as “Lord” (all capital letters) to distinguish it as the name of God. They render the Hebrew word adonai or the Greek word kurios as “Lord” (first letter capitalized). They translated Elohim as theos in Greek.

    Some English versions of the Bible use Jehovah, a sixteenth-century transliteration of YHWH, in their texts instead of “Lord.”

    Sacred Name

    A phenomenon among some Sabbathkeepers is the teaching that reference to God should be made by His Hebrew name, Yahweh, or an equivalent. This practice is known as the sacred names, predicated on texts like these: “I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols” (Isaiah 42:8), or “Those who know your name will trust in you
    . . .” (Psalm 9:10). The importance attached to this teaching varies. Some simply prefer to refer to God as Yahweh. Others insist that salvation depends upon avoiding references to Deity by titles like “Lord” and “God.” To refer to God as “Lord” or “God” is considered, by these folks, to be idolatrous. The idea of the sacred names is that it is imperative to know the Hebrew names and titles for God. It teaches that one can only call upon God properly by articulating His name in Hebrew. Hence, those worshippers refer to Deity as Elohim for “God,” Adonai for “Lord” (lower case), or Yahweh for “Lord” (capital letters). Jesus must be called Yahshua, Hebrew for Joshua and the equivalent of the Greek name Jesus. Some advocates of this teaching have mistakenly taught that Jesus is derived from Zeus, the Greek god. Contrary to this misrepresentation, Jesus is derived from the Greek name for Joshua and means “the Lord saves” (Matthew 1:21).

    One of our objectives here is to examine the teaching of the sacred names from different biblical perspectives. We will examine the argument for the exclusive use of the Hebrew names, in reference to Deity, to determine if it has biblical support.

    Source: https://baonline.org/the-sacred-name-of-god/


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  4. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the name YHWH is not found anywhere in the NT -- but there are NT verses that quote the OT, and in the OT YHWH was used. Some of these OT quotes are clearly applied to Jesus.

    One example is this:

    See Romans 10:12-13 (NASB)
    For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

    Paul is quoting from Joel 2:32 which says this:
    Joel 2:32 (NASB)
    "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

    The issue boils down to this:
    How many Gods are in the Bible? One or multiple gods?

    If YHWH is the one and only God, then that must mean that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all YHWH. Otherwise, we would have three gods.

    The Father and Son are two Persons, but they are the same God, YHWH. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father -- however, the Father and the Son are both YHWH.

    To teach otherwise means that the Father and the Son would have to be two different gods, and two different beings.

    I take no issue with that, and I agree.

    I am not a Sacred Names proponent. I am simply saying that the God of the OT is the same God as that of the NT -- and that since there is only one God, both the Father and Son have to be Him.

    I think it would be more conducive to a conversation if you would state what you believe instead of quoting websites.
     
  5. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    No, he didn't. I would argue that if he had said that people would have thought he was insane. It wouldn't have conveyed any useful meaning. Instead, throughout his life he acted with God's authority, did things that only God could do, and generally represented God. I think this is what you'd expect given the Incarnation.
     
  6. Baby Cottontail

    Baby Cottontail Well-Known Member

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    Who is that in response to?
     
  7. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    the OP
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    False. The Father and the Son are homooousios, they are of One Being. They are distinct Hypostases and Persons, but one in Being, Essence, and Substance--one Ousia, one God.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. rpsibew110

    rpsibew110 God's Grace is Enough

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    Christ dwells with in us as believers and as we all know Christ is God, so that would mean God is in us as believers
    II corinthians 13:5
    5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
    Romans 8:10
    10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.”Galatians 2:20

    To say that Go live in Jesus I believe puts Jesus in the same level as us.
    John 1:1-4
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, 1 and the life was the light of men.

    John1:14
    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    John 8:58-59
    58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

    The only reason the people would have picked up stone to kill him was the fact that Jesus is telling them he is God. Which at the time was punishable by death.

    God is not in Jesus because Jesus is God.
     
  10. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Show me from either the Biblical teachings or those of Jesus, or any of His disciples, support of any kind, to veriy your above non-Scriptural claims.


    Quasar92
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    While they are 2 distinct Persons, they are one YHWH God (John 10:30).

    Note that God the Son is also referred to as YHWH (e.g. Zechariah 14:3-4).
     
  12. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There was a certain element of non-disclosure in the gospel Matthew 16:20. Right up to the time of the trial there had to be some ambiguity of who is He claiming to be, otherwise why even ask the question in Mark 14:61. Once that answer was given, anyone who reads about the reaction it solicited "And the high priest tore his garments", would say that it certainly wasn't in mild disagreement. It proceeded to act with deathly consequences.

    On the idea of "It wouldn't have conveyed any useful meaning". I would guess, had such a thing been absolutely clear to the general population of Judea. They would of been expecting to have a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night to be marching on Rome some time soon.
     
  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    YASHUA/JESUS IS NOT YHWH/YAHWEH!

    The following are scriptures proving Yahweh and Yahshua are not one being
    :

    Rev. 1:1-2,5-6, Rev. 2:18,27. Rev. 3:5,12, Matt. 4:3,6-7,10 Matt. 6:8-13, Matt. 7:21, Matt. 10:32-33,40, Matt.11:25-27, Matt. 12:50 16:13-17,27, 18:19, 19:17,;20:23,24:36, 26:39,42,53, John2:16-18,4:34 John 5:19-47, 6:38-40,44-46, 8:19,28-29,38,42,49,54, John 10:17-28,25,29,32,36, (John 13:16 brings this point out even clearer, it states that one who is sent, is not greater than the one whom sent Him, Yahweh sent Yahshua) (John 13:20, John 14:1-2,11-16,20-24,28, shows that Yahweh is greater than Yahshua which proves even the more that Yahweh is the Father, and Yahshua is the Son, and not the Father), John 14:31,15:1,9-10,16,21, John 16:5,10,15-17,23,26-28, John17, John18:11, John 20:21, Matt. 10:32-33,40, 7:21, Matt. 12:50 Matt. 15:13, 16:17, 18:10,19,35, Matt. 20:23, Matt. 26:39,42,53, Matt. 28:19, Mark 8:38, 9:37, Psalms 2:7, 8:9,26-27, Luke 1:31-32, John 3:35-36.

    The scriptures above are just a few examples of the many, found in the Bible, to prove that Yahweh is the Father and Yahshua is the son (From the NKJV). On this site, we are using Yahweh's (God) true name, and Yahshua's (jesus) true name).

    Scriptures identifying the Father and the Son as two separate entities:

    Jn.1:2: "He was with God in the beginning." Jn.14:28: "...for the Father is greater than I." Jn.17:3: ...that they may know you, the only true God." Jn.17:5: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." Confirming Pr.8:22-25: "The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth," Pr.8:30: "Then I was the craftsman at His side..." Confirming Col.1:15: " He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." Heb.1:2: "...but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe."


    Quasa92r
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    It is what the Bible claims:

    Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
    John 14:10

    But by what the Bible tells, Jesus didn’t say he is God. He even said God is greater than him and there is only one true God. Therefore it seems the judgment was false as also the Bible tells. On basis of the Bible story, Jesus was falsely accused and it seems that the true reason was that the rulers were afraid of losing their power.
     
  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are Scripture passages such as the following, that reveal the Father calling the Son, God. Such as in Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-9 and Ps.110:1.


    Quasar92
     
  16. rpsibew110

    rpsibew110 God's Grace is Enough

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    On the contrary Jesus did say he is God. I really like the site Got Questions dot org. and I am going to use their site to explain why Jesus did say and is God. I hope this is ok.

    What did Jesus mean when He said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30)?
    In John 10 Jesus presents Himself as the Good Shepherd and, in a debate with the Jewish leaders, makes the claim, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). It was a bold statement—one His audience found quite audacious—and it reveals much about who Jesus is.

    Five key observations can be made concerning this passage. First, Jesus claimed to be one with God in the sense of being equal to Him. Jesus did not claim to be merely a messenger or prophet of God, but of equal power with God.

    Third, Jesus referred to Himself as God’s Son and to God as His Father (John 10:36–37). He used Psalm 82:6 to show that the Messiah has the right to claim the title “Son of God.”

    Fourth, Jesus claimed that that Father sent Him: “the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world” (John 10:36). In this statement, Jesus claimed preexistence in the Father’s presence. No biblical prophet had ever made such a claim before; yet Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham (John 8:58).

    Colossians 1:16–17 affirms Jesus’ same teaching: “In him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” John 1:1 explicitly notes that Jesus was both with God in the beginning and was God.

    To believe that Jesus was merely a man that had God in him reduces Jesus to equality with us. As we have Jesus in us as with the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God manifest in man to bring salvation to the world. It is the plan that has been laid out since the beginning of time.

    Ok so here we are about to embark on discussion in the trinity. The bible does not tell us a lot but it does tell us. That the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God.

    With that said let us all agree that God is an entity that there is no way we can fully understand with our human mind. From what the bible tells us we can under stand that the Father, Jesus (Son) and Holy Spirit are separate entities and are all one God agree? I hope so I would hate to get banned.

    Knowing this I can see how Jesus being God manifest in man, being man and God at the same time can say the Father is in me. As they are separate but one God knowing this I can see the relationship and understand why the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father.



    First please show me the verse that states Jesus used God? I believe you are referring to the phrase “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) Which is explained below.

    How can there be subordination / hierarchy in the Trinity?
    What the Bible does teach is an economic (or relational) subordination within the Trinity. The three Persons of the triune Godhead voluntarily submit to each other respecting the roles They perform in creation and salvation. So, the Father sent the Son into the world (1 John 4:10). These roles are never reversed in Scripture: the Son never sends the Father. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is sent by Jesus and “proceeds from the Father” to testify of Christ (John 14:26; 15:26). And Jesus perfectly submitted His will to the Father’s (Luke 22:42; Hebrews 10:7).

    Economic or relational subordination is simply a term to describe the relationship that exists among God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Essentially, economic subordination within the Trinity refers to what God does while ontological subordination refers to who God is.

    Biblically, all three Persons of the Trinity have the same essence and nature, but each One has different roles or activities when it comes to how God relates to the world. For example, our salvation is based on the Father’s power and love (John 3:16; 10:29), the Son’s death and resurrection (1 John 2:2; Ephesians 2:6), and the Spirit’s regeneration and seal (Ephesians 4:30; Titus 3:5). The different tasks that we see the Father, Son, and Spirit perform are the result of the eternal relationship that exists among the Persons of the Trinity.
     
  17. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    No, he didn’t. He spoke of his role more indirectly.
    This isn’t “I am God,” because the context clearly refers to them as separate, with the Father giving him things.
    Unfortunately, son of God was used to refer to the king, so it’s not “I am God.” Ps 82:6 is an odd citation. Look at the original. It’s sarcastic. The quotation of it in John 10:34 assumes it was aimed at everyone who heard God’s word. Jesus was defending himself against an accusation that he called himself God, but in fact he called himself son of god. The argument was "Scriptures refers to those who hear God's word as gods, so surely I can call myself the son of God."

    Yes. As you point out Col and a couple of other passages make similar claims.

    I’m not saying that it’s wrong for Christian theology to say that he is the incarnation of God, just that he implied it in various ways but didn’t say it directly. That’s the reason that it took centuries for the Church to decide in what sense Jesus should be spoken of as God.
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Good post.

    It appears that the Hebrew word #H1961 is equvilent to the greek word #1096

    Genesis 1:1 (YLT)
    Strong's Number H1961 matches the Hebrew הָיָה (hayah), which occurs 76 times in 72 verses in the Hebrew concordance

    1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (Compare 1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)..............

    Exodus 3:
    12 And He is saying: "That I Shall Be/01961 hayah with thee,...........
    13 ........................
    And they have said to me, 'What Name of Him'? What shall I say to them"?
    14 And 'Elohiym is saying to Mosheh, "I-shall-be/01961 hayah who I-shall-be/01961 hayah".
    And-He saying "Thus you shall say to sons of Yisra'el, 'I-shall-be/01961 hayah, He-sent-me unto-you'".

    1096. ginomai ghin'-om-ahee a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.)

    Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

    John 8:
    58 Jesus said to them "Verily, verily, I am saying to ye, before Abraham's to be becoming/generated/genesqai <1096> (5635) --I Am;"
    eipen autoiV o ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam genesqai egw eimi

    Jeremiah 17:10

    I Yahweh, searching heart, examining the affections/kidneys/ 03629 kilyah
    and giving to man Ways of him, as fruit of his doings. [Reve 2:23]

    The great I AM!

    Reve 2:23
    And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death,
    and shall be knowing all the Assemblies that I AM the ONE-searching kidneys/nefrouV <3510> and hearts
    and I shall be giving to Ye each according to the works of Ye. [Jeremiah 17:10]

    kai ta tekna authV apoktenw en qanatw kai gnwsontai pasai ai ekklhsiai oti egw eimi o ereunwn nefrouV kai kardiaV kai dwsw umin ekastw kata ta erga umwn

    Reve 16:17

    and the seventh one pours out the bowl of him upon the air and came out a great Voice out of the Sanctuary from the Throne saying :it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Revelation 21:6]

    Revelation 21:6
    And He said to me:" it-hath-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 16:17]
    I AM the alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the End.......

    kai eipen moi gegonen egw eimi to a kai to w h arch kai to teloV egw tw diywnti dwsw ek thV phghV tou udatoV thV zwhV dwrean
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  19. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Matthew 26.62-64:
    "...And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

    64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy."
     
  20. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    There is only one God:

    "Hear O Israel the Lord your God, the Lord is one." - Deuteronomy 6:4
    "I am the Lord, and there is no other, beside Me there is no other God." - Isaiah 45:5
    "I, I am the Lord, apart from Me there is no Savior." - Isaiah 45:11

    The Father is God:

    "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist," - 1 Corinthians 8:6a

    The Son is God:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1
    "For in Him the fullness of Deity dwells bodily." - Colossians 2:9
    "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," - Titus 2:13
    "But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.'" - Hebrews 1:8
    "I and My Father are one." - John 10:30

    The Son is distinct from the Father:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - John 1:1
    "No one has at anytime seen God, but the only-begotten God who is at the Father's bosom, has made Him known." - John 1:18
    "And now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed." - John 17:5
    "And a voice from heaven said, 'This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'" - Matthew 3:17

    There is therefore only one God.
    Both the Father and the Son are that one God.
    The Father and the Son are distinct.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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