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Is its God's will for us to be confused? Jeremiah 16:19 (Surely our fathers have inherited lies)

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by SAAN, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. SAAN

    SAAN Newbie

    Jeremiah 16:19-21 World English Bible (WEB)
    19 Yahweh, my strength, and my stronghold, and my refuge in the day of affliction, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, vanity and things in which there is no profit. 20 Shall a man make to himself gods, which yet are no gods? 21 Therefore behold, I will cause them to know, this once will I cause them to know my hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is Yahweh.

    Every time I hear a Messianic, SDA, or Hebrew Roots Movement always quote this verse stating we have been passed down lies from our fore fathers, in regards to anything from the Name, Sabbaths, the law, rapture, tithe, baptist, etc, and why their movement is correct when they discovered the truth and why modern day Christianity is wrong.

    If this is really true, why would God allow his word to be corrupted or for lies to be purposely passed down regarding anything about him, since the word was inspired by the Holy Spirit and is supposed to be a vital part of our lives and then passed down, only for his followers to fight over it and start religion after religion when they think they discover errors?
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    There were a few preachers or teachers decades ago who explained God's Plan and Purpose and why there was /is so much confusion,
    directly in line with/ from/ in harmony with all Scripture.

    It is not understood on forums - too much differing opinions contributing to confusion daily.
  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    That's because we are in error when we set false religion against true as an antithesis of sin against holiness, when in reality it is self interest against interests of others:

    Acts 17:22-31
    22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23“For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all peopleeverywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    United States
  5. HenryM

    HenryM Well-Known Member

    That verse is not talking about the Bible, God's word. It's talking about traditions: "Our fathers have inherited traditions of men that are full of lies, vanity and things in which there is no profit."

    How can we know that? Because God magnifies His word above His Name (Psalms 138:2) and promises to preserve His word (Psalms 12:6-7, Deuteronomy 4:1-2, Proverbs 30:5-6, Matthew 5:18, Mark 13:31...). At the same time we don't have a promise from God that He will lead people to keep their traditions in accordance to His word. So conclusion is that those "inherited lies, vanity and things in which there is no profit" are men's traditions, not God's word preserved for us in the Bible.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  6. mozo41

    mozo41 Well-Known Member

    United Kingdom
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    "Is its God's will for us to be confused? "

    No. Not for His children to be confused.

    For the world, < shrugs > He lets them go on to destruction,

    instead of taking away their choice....
  8. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    Christian Seeker
    You know those times when you're praying to god for guidance and when you get some, you decide to order another answer? Well .. maybe not. However, I think that may be when 2 Thessalonians 2:11 happens "because they refused to love the truth" (v10) this may be why there are so many conflicting doctrines these days. Originally there was just one apparently.
    (edit) However, it is very unlikely that anyone can figure it now, so I go with Romans 3:4 on the subject.
  9. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

    The problem occurs with the misconception that every word in the bible is God Ordained to be carried out as recorded. When the bible says that every word of the Bible is God Breathed, the meaning there is that life is contained within the words. They are edification for learning. The Bible is claiming to be the only book authored by the Holy Spirit. Meaning that within is what God wants commonly revealed to all about the actions, thoughts, lives etc of Himself, satan and mankind. God-breathed is claiming that those who wrote it were God-inspired to record His word. IOW, when God records He also records mistakes people have made, and His progressive move thru the bible in sanctifying a people to Himself, and also therein is recorded the sinister plans of the devil. Discernment is needed to rightly divide the word.

    The verses quoted showed the extent to which God had gone to remove idols from His people, the national disgrace and suffering caused by it. It doesn't sound to me like He chews His cabbage twice.
    Jeremiah 16:21
    Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know my hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD.

    With the change produced at the incarnation, Jesus sought to correct corruption of the word of that which remained of false doctrine that was not a product of His government but was introduced for man by man. Seen in divorce. It didn't end there because Paul introduced rabinical law too to appease man by man. That of a parable to explain what Christ and the church represent as the folly but folly nontheless. Nevertheless Moses and paul should have known better.
    Jeremiah 16:20
    Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

    Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
    Jeremiah 16:19
    The Gentiles shall come - Even the days shall come when the Gentiles themselves, ashamed of their confidence, shall renounce their idols, and acknowledge that their fathers had believed lies, and worshipped vanities. This may be a prediction of the calling of the Gentiles by the Gospel of Christ; if so, it is a light amidst much darkness. In such dismal accounts there is need of some gracious promise relative to an amended state of the world.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  10. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

    So I guess the question that remains unanswered until all is revealed "did Paul fall short of reaching the promised land?"
  11. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    Jesus taught him directly, and the Message of the Gospel of Jesus was proclaimed and described in wonderful full detail by YAHWEH through YAHWEH'S MESSENGER .
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    Yahweh's Wisdom is beyond our comprehension.

    His Word, He Protected, Guarded even more than His Own Name (as is written).

    the lies ? those started while the apostles were still alive,
    "many antichrists among us", and the ones trying to corrupt the faith of believers as described in Galatians.
    and continued.

    the lies won't stop or be stopped until Jesus returns.

    except among the ones bought by the blood of Jesus.
    as written" stop lying to one another " and likewise with all the other directions to people who are born again, immersed in Jesus' Name, called and chosen and set apart (holy) by Yahweh for His good pleasure, His Will.
  13. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ just my two cents Supporter

    If Moses' corruption of the word was enough to keep him outside the promiseland then there is no reason that Pauls wont either. But look on the bright side ... the kings will have the leader they hoped for. Oh ya, that is supposed to be Christ isn't it. Maybe it's time for Jews and Gentiles to get their heads out of the sand and realize that narative in the bible does not equal God given law.
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    Yahweh and Yeshua vouched for Paul and the Word given through Him.
    (Moses also : whoever listens to Moses, listens to Jesus because Moses speaks of Him)

    Whoever rejects Paul or Moses also has rejected Jesus.
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    I would say neither he or the other Apostles fell short,
    as they were looking for a heavenly land. Paul also got a crown......

    2 Tim: 4
    2 preach the word; be earnest in season, out of season,
    convict, rebuke, exhort, in all long-suffering and teaching,
    6 for I am already being poured out, and the time of my release hath arrived; 7 the good strife I have striven, the course/race I have finished, the faith I have kept,
    8 henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of the righteousness that the Lord — the Righteous Judge — shall give to me in that day,
    and not only to me, but also to all those loving his manifestation.

    18 Yes, and the Lord will deliver me from every evil attack and will bring me safely into his heavenly Kingdom.
    All glory to God forever and ever! Amen

    Like his bro Paul, Peter is also shown to be dying shortly, and I would assume he got the same rewards as did his bro Paul.
    Interesting word he uses "booth/tabernacle"......

    2 peter 1:14
    Having known that speedily is the putting off of the booth/tabernacle/skhnw-matoV <4638> of me,
    according as also the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, makes evident to me

    Reve 21:3
    and I hear a voice, great, out of the heaven [*throne] saying "behold! the booth/tabernacle/skhnh <4633> of the God is with the men,
    and He shall be boothing/tabernacling/skhnwsei <4637> (5692) with them
    and they peoples of Him shall be. And He, the God, shall be with them
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  16. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    United States
    Perhaps they are practicing Judaism to bring more Jews to Jesus [much like the Jews for Jesus movement]?
    There appears to be another verse that is similar to the one you quoted:

    Jeremiah 8:8
    8 How do you say, 'We are wise, and the law of Yahweh is with us'?
    For behold! the false pen of the scribes has worked falsely.

    And hear is a reference about Judah and pen of iron.
    [The house of Judah consisted of the priestly tribe of Levi]

    Jeremiah 17:
    1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron,
    and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the tablet of their heart,
    and upon the horns of your altars;

    And according to some commentators, the rich man in Luke 16 is symbolically "the house of JUDAH"

    Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

    LUKE 16:19
    "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."

    "The wearing of purple was associated particularly with royalty . . ." (p. 863, "Purple"). In addition, the New Bible Dictionary tells us: "The use of linen in OT times was prescribed for priests (Ex. 28:39). The coat, turban and girdle must be of fine linen." (p. 702, "Linen").
    So we see that the garments worn by this rich man were symbolic of royalty and the priesthood. With that in mind, let's see what God told Moses just before giving the Israelites the Law on Mount Sinai:

    LUKE 16:27
    "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father!
    that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "

    LUKE 16:29
    "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "

    Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham....................

    The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35).
    He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

    While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking.....
    Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
    This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017