Is it wrong to touch?

[Stan the Man]

Desire does not equate to fulfillment of desire. God created us as sexual creatures, but He places clearly defined limits on our sexual behaviour. The fact that we have sexual desires/appetites/expectations, shows only that we were created with the capacity to engage in and enjoy sexual relationships:

Genesis 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

So what does that mean in terms of our sexual desires? They are intended to help us in our relationship with our spouse. If it is not good for man to be alone, then how do you harmonise masturbation with this passage?

more often than not it is our body's hromones kicking in, especially in the case of young men.

Although a nice excuse, hormones do not actually cause a response which involves prolonged voluntary physical activity.

My drive has moderated so I could shout with the best of you that "masturbation is a sin" because my needs have changed.

Whether or not something is a sin is not determined by your needs. God defines what is sinful and what is righteous.

The deisre can come from sexual thoughts it does not have to

There is a cognitive part of the brain which is stimulated when we experience sexual desire or sexual arousal. You may have convinced yourself that your brain is not engaged when you touch (and that it therefore does not involve lust), but it is. That same part of the brain is stimulated whether or not our sexual desire or arousal results in sexual gratification. The issue is how we respond to that desire or arousal.

To experience sexual desire is not a sin since it is not a sin to be tempted:

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

But to submit to that temptation - to pursue temptation rather than pursuing righteousness - is a sin. There is not a sound medical argument for masturbation (eg. "you need a release"), nor is there anything in Scripture to indicate that it is acceptable or indeed a mute point. Indeed, Paul says:

1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

yet Paul advocated abstinence from marriage for the purpose of serving God more effectively. If Paul, who was such a strong advocate of celibacy, said it was better to marry than to burn with passion (or desire), then where does the notion that there is a better option come from? We should not just be trying to think about this in terms of an issue of righteousness (ie. whether or not it is sinful), but as an issue of wisdom: is it what is most pleasing to God? We aren't called to do the bare minimum for God, he calls us to serve Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength - rather than arguing about whether or not you can get away with masturbation, consider whether it is what is most pleasing to God:

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship

 

[praying]

Desire does not equate to fulfillment of desire. God created us as sexual creatures, but He places clearly defined limits on our sexual behaviour. The fact that we have sexual desires/appetites/expectations, shows only that we were created with the capacity to engage in and enjoy sexual relationships:

Genesis 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

So what does that mean in terms of our sexual desires? They are intended to help us in our relationship with our spouse. If it is not good for man to be alone, then how do you harmonise masturbation with this passage?

I don't because that passage has nothing at all to do with mastrubation, bsides the fact that as a couple you can engage in mutual mastrubation if you desrie, many couples do.

Although a nice excuse, hormones do not actually cause a response which involves prolonged voluntary physical activity.

It was not an excuse, because there is nothing to be excused from and more importantly I was referring to the inital feeling of "need" if you will.

There is a cognitive part of the brain which is stimulated when we experience sexual desire or sexual arousal. You may have convinced yourself that your brain is not engaged when you touch (and that it therefore does not involve lust), but it is. That same part of the brain is stimulated whether or not our sexual desire or arousal results in sexual gratification. The issue is how we respond to that desire or arousal.

I have not convinced myself because I realize the brain is involved but that does not mean that if one is mastrubating it automatically equates to lust. Perhaps that is your experience but not mine and many others.

 

[amx]

It's really strange to be on the "other" side of the issue from most of the conservative Christians. Oh well.
I could probably make the argument using similar reason to what I have seen here that riding in an automobile would be wrong. I could go through the Bible and show in Genesis how God walked in the garden with Adam clear up to the Amais (sp?) road experience. In all of these scenes people would be walking. Cars would be an invention of our current evil age. God gave us feet. Isn't it obvious how He wants us to get around.
There is no place in the Bible that describes masturbation, sin or otherwise. There is also no mention of people riding in cars or eating grapefruit yet no one is claiming these to be a sin. If however you decide to get Ford or Chevy out of your life today and lead the pure life God may be calling you to please let us know.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Well knowing that Jesus rode on a donkey, and in a boat and stuff, I'm sure it's fine to ride in a car XD

But the Bible speaks an many places against perversion...
One of the definitions would be "One who practices sexual perversion."

It's true it never speaks of masturbation, but I think it would be common sense to not rule out "haveing sex" with your hand (or with yourself for that matter).
It's abuseing (abnormal use) what God has given to you, and sexual expierience was a gift from God for those who are married.

Outside of marriage it is considered perversion, and corrupt.

That's what my study of it has concluded, anyway.

 

[amx]

Well knowing that Jesus rode on a donkey, and in a boat and stuff, I'm sure it's fine to ride in a car XD

But the Bible speaks an many places against perversion...
One of the definitions would be "One who practices sexual perversion."

It's true it never speaks of masturbation, but I think it would be common sense to not rule out "haveing sex" with your hand (or with yourself for that matter).
It's abuseing (abnormal use) what God has given to you, and sexual expierience was a gift from God for those who are married.

Outside of marriage it is considered perversion, and corrupt.

That's what my study of it has concluded, anyway.

All modes of transportation Jesus used were naturally powered. They were not powered by "abusing" the environment. but I digress...

God spells out what he means by pervesion. Read the sex chapter in Deut. If we start reading things into what we think he meant by perversions we revert to the 1940's when only missionary style sex without any additions was considered the only correct (non perverse) way to have sex. I am not comfortable with having people detail what they think God meant when He didn't say it. I am fine with someone deciding that something is not right for them. Such as choosing to be a vegitarian because you believe eating meat is wrong. On issues like this I say live and let live. Masturbation is one such issue.

 

[justcallmejamie]

what if you fantasize about your own spouse?

 

[BrotherAtArms]

what if you fantasize about your own spouse?

Well I don't see the wrong in that since the Bible would describe it as each other's nakedness or whatever XD

All modes of transportation Jesus used were naturally powered. They were not powered by "abusing" the environment. but I digress...

Aha, so, in this very same manner, you should, instead of emailing people, use a pen and paper to write a letter, and deliver it yourself, yes?

Oh no, you should walk there and tell them with your very own mouth.

Driveing a car is not a sin, and it is thanks to modes of transportation such as cars, airplanes, busses, and other such things, the ENTIRE world is able to be spoken to of God's Word, just as He wants^^

 

[praying]

It's abuseing (abnormal use) what God has given to you,

Why is it abnormal and abusive?

 

[BrotherAtArms]

abuse means to abnormally use (same thing basically)

But it is abuseing the gift He's given, this feeling was meant to only be shared with your spouse, but think about it this way...

Sex is a wedding present, it is only to be opened after you get married, but it is spoiled if you open it up before marriage.

Not just the sexual act, itself, but the feeling that is meant to be shared with only your spouse.
Therefore, it is abuseing your ability to open this gift before marriage.

 

[Bunnaroo]

I'm a little confused how self-pleasuring oneself sexually can be thought of as self abuse. I have no knowledge of any medical detriment from the act itself. Maybe a learned person, or one good at research, can find medical reasons not to touch. I would appreciate the "peanut gallery" to refrain from jokes about tennis elbow and wrist sprains.

Maybe I misunderstand the concept of self-abuse. I put such activities as smoking, excessive drinking, cutting (one's self), and eating oneself sick as self-abusive. I don't see anything harmful in the act itself. I know there are individuals who get addicted to masturbation, but they are rare and can seek help, both medically and spiritually, and they are more likely to become addicted to other things, too.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

I didn't say it was self abuse, I said it was abuse of the ability to open this gift before marriage.

 

[Bunnaroo]

All modes of transportation Jesus used were naturally powered. They were not powered by "abusing" the environment. but I digress...

Here's a girl that has never been behind a donkey with a serious case of the poots.

God spells out what he means by pervesion. Read the sex chapter in Deut. If we start reading things into what we think he meant by perversions we revert to the 1940's when only missionary style sex without any additions was considered the only correct (non perverse) way to have sex. I am not comfortable with having people detail what they think God meant when He didn't say it. I am fine with someone deciding that something is not right for them. Such as choosing to be a vegitarian because you believe eating meat is wrong. On issues like this I say live and let live. Masturbation is one such issue.

I think it was Leviticus 18 that talks about sexual perversion, but there may be something in Dueturonomy, too...
Now that you mention it, sex, in general, seems to be something that Christians don't like to talk about. Really, folks, what makes it so dirty? I mean, little Christians come from somewhere, don't they?

 

[praying]

abuse means to abnormally use (same thing basically)

Umm no.

Main Entry: 2abuse
Pronunciation: &-'byüz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): abused; abus·ing
1 : to put to a wrong or improper use <abuse a privilege>
2 obsolete : DECEIVE
3 : to use so as to injure or damage : MALTREAT
4 : to attack in words : REVILE
- abus·able /-'byü-z&-b&l/ adjective
- abus·er noun


Main Entry: 1ab·nor·mal
Pronunciation: (")ab-'nor-m&l, &b-
Function: adjective
Etymology: alteration of French anormal, from Medieval Latin anormalis, from Latin a- + Late Latin normalis normal
: deviating from the normal or average : UNUSUAL, EXCEPTIONAL <abnormal behavior>
- ab·nor·mal·ly /-m&-lE/ adverb

But it is abuseing the gift He's given, this feeling was meant to only be shared with your spouse, but think about it this way...

Where does it say that in the Bible that self pleasure is wrong because [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is only meant to be felt with your spouse. Yes, intercourse is only to be enjoyed with your spouse.

Sex is a wedding present, it is only to be opened after you get married, but it is spoiled if you open it up before marriage.

Mastrubation IS NOT sexual intercourse.

Not just the sexual act, itself, but the feeling that is meant to be shared with only your spouse.
Therefore, it is abuseing your ability to open this gift before marriage.

The feeling of an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], you can't share that feeling. You can share the obvious, the experience, hopefully become closer but you are not "sharing" the feeling of an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].


And the fact is not everytime husband and wife engage is sexual activity is it some soul stirring sharing experience where the angels sing. Sometimes it just, you want to have sex so you can get physical release. No mushy words, or prolonged anticipation just physical release. And there is nothing wrong with that either.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

ya, sex isn't a dirty thing, but aslong as it's treated properly.

Your nose boogers keep dust from flying into your lungs, they seem dirty (Or nasty) but hey, they're a good thing *ACHOO!*

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Umm no.

Main Entry: 2abuse
Pronunciation: &-'byüz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): abused; abus·ing
1 : to put to a wrong or improper use <abuse a privilege>
2 obsolete : DECEIVE
3 : to use so as to injure or damage : MALTREAT
4 : to attack in words : REVILE
- abus·able /-'byü-z&-b&l/ adjective
- abus·er noun


Main Entry: 1ab·nor·mal
Pronunciation: (")ab-'nor-m&l, &b-
Function: adjective
Etymology: alteration of French anormal, from Medieval Latin anormalis, from Latin a- + Late Latin normalis normal
: deviating from the normal or average : UNUSUAL, EXCEPTIONAL <abnormal behavior>
- ab·nor·mal·ly /-m&-lE/ adverb




Where does it say that in the Bible that self pleasure is wrong because [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is only meant to be felt with your spouse. Yes, intercourse is only to be enjoyed with your spouse.




Mastrubation IS NOT sexual intercourse.



The feeling of an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], you can't share that feeling. You can share the obvious, the experience, hopefully become closer but you are not "sharing" the feeling of an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].


And the fact is not everytime husband and wife engage is sexual activity is it some soul stirring sharing experience where the angels sing. Sometimes it just, you want to have sex so you can get physical release. No mushy words, or prolonged anticipation just physical release. And there is nothing wrong with that either.

That's awesome how you contridicted yourself and took everything out of context XD

Your definition is the same as mine just useing other forms of the words XD

And we aren't talking about [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], we're talking about sex.

And no, masturbation isn't intercourse, but it is a sexual thing.

XD Well I'm done with this conversation, far be it from me to tell you what is right and wrong^^ G'night all!

 

[justcallmejamie]

I didn't say it was self abuse, I said it was abuse of the ability to open this gift before marriage.

i like the way you put that

for the record i believe masturbation is sin. just thought i would put in my 2 cents.

also i dont think masturbating and Jesus mode of transportation have anything to do with one another althought finding the relation is a hot topic in this thread

 

[amx]

also i dont think masturbating and Jesus mode of transportation have anything to do with one another althought finding the relation is a hot topic in this thread

I was making a point about debate styles. Most of the arguments that have been posted don't use clear quotes from the Bible because there aren't any. So we are left inferring that it's a sin and trying to tie masturbation to things that are really unrelated like adultery. Adultery and fornication are a sin because you are uniting your flesh with someone who isn't your spouse. That is not true of masturbation.

The transportation issue was just an example of how off the wall things can get when we try to infer what God meant. However there are Christains out there that reason with infered logic and eschew all current forms of technology. I would offer an apology to my amish friends reading this but none would be because they don't internet.

BTW if you think you are holy have a talk with on of them and they will set you straight. They would say all of us were going straight to hell for talking on computers like this.

The Bible says what it says and it doesn't say what it doesn't say.

 

[praying]

That's awesome how you contridicted yourself and took everything out of context XD

Your definition is the same as mine just useing other forms of the words XD

And we aren't talking about [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], we're talking about sex.

And no, masturbation isn't intercourse, but it is a sexual thing.

XD Well I'm done with this conversation, far be it from me to tell you what is right and wrong^^ G'night all!

How did I contradict myself?


What in God's name is XD?

 

[GQ Chris]

I like what Richard Foster has to say about masturbation in his book "Money Sex and Power".

Basically he says that masturbation in itself isn't a sin, but when it gets to a point when you do it so much that it's obsessive, then it is because it becomes an idol in your life.

So many people feel the need to quit altogether, which for most people is next to impossible.

 

[Bulldog]

What in God's name is XD?

Look at it sideways.