Is it wrong to keep more of what you earn than the government says you can?

[bricklayer]

The stupidity is strong with this conversation......

The arrogance is no slouch either.

 

[bricklayer]

Yes.
The fact that God has managed to turn the former into a tremendous force for good, is irrelevant to that point.

Are you pacifistic?

 

[Mediaeval]

According to the Bible, you're wrong - taxation is NOT "oppression and robbery".

ArmenianJohn,
thanks for your reply. Here is how I see it. The Bible affirms private property rights when it says, Thou shalt not steal. The command applies to everyone, whether they hold an office of authority or not. The money I earn is mine, not the government's. No one can take it from me without my consent except by robbery. Thus taxation (forcing money from me with the threat of violence) is robbery.

That taxation is also oppression is self-evident when you work hard for your money, have bills to pay, children to educate, retirement to save for, and charities to support, and hope to enjoy a few simple recreations. Taxation interferes with those aims.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

The arrogance is no slouch either.

Pointing out facts isn't arrogant.

Are you pacifistic?

No. Pacifism ranks upthere with nazism and communism as the most vile ideologies ever thought up in the minds of humans. And I've said nothing to hint at supporting this disgusting ideology.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

ArmenianJohn,
thanks for your reply. Here is how I see it. The Bible affirms private property rights when it says, Thou shalt not steal. The command applies to everyone, whether they hold an office of authority or not. The money I earn is mine, not the government's. No one can take it from me without my consent except by robbery. Thus taxation (forcing money from me with the threat of violence) is robbery.

That's perhaps the most incompetent exegesis I've ever read....
There is nothing in the Bible that evene HINTS at "tax = theft". Quite the contrary, and the only way you arrive at the conclusion you do, is because that's what you WANT the Bible to say....There is no support for that interpretation in the Bible itself, or in the context in which it came into being.
When Caesar says "Pay taxes, please", the Christian is to say: "How much?".

 

[bricklayer]

Pointing out facts isn't arrogant.




No. Pacifism ranks upthere with nazism and communism as the most vile ideologies ever thought up in the minds of humans. And I've said nothing to hint at supporting this disgusting ideology.

So you're somewhere between revolution being a sin and all out pacifism.
Are you pacifistic toward the government but not everyone else?

I agree whole heartedly with your assessment of all out pacifism.

I do not include your perceptions of stupidity to be among the facts.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

ArmenianJohn,
thanks for your reply. Here is how I see it. The Bible affirms private property rights when it says, Thou shalt not steal. The command applies to everyone, whether they hold an office of authority or not. The money I earn is mine, not the government's. No one can take it from me without my consent except by robbery. Thus taxation (forcing money from me with the threat of violence) is robbery.

It's not robbery if it is money that you owe and are therefore obliged to pay.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Can it be?
Is Jesus' call to pay tax a call for political stasis?

How can that be when taxation has absolutely nothing to do with political stasis???

Jesus' call for us to pay our taxes is explained clearly in God's Word - we pay taxes for the purpose of funding government to act as God's agent of justice and order on earth.

It's right there in God's Word. Christians believe this, non-Christians believe other things.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

How can that be when taxation has absolutely nothing to do with political stasis???

Jesus' call for us to pay our taxes is explained clearly in God's Word - we pay taxes for the purpose of funding government to act as God's agent of justice and order on earth.

It's right there in God's Word. Christians believe this, non-Christians believe other things.

Cite the verse in Scripture where Jesus told us to pay tax.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

You're not any different from the OP, except your criterion is different from his. His is taxation, yours is "religious freedoms" - the substance isn't different at all.
Both are sin. You arbitrarily deciding that your criterion is better than his, doesn't change this.
There is no justification in the Scriptures for Christians to rise up in rebellion against their own government. And certainly not for the sake of "religious freedoms" - a point sealed by the red blood of the early martyrs who could have risen up in revolt when persecution began, but who chose not to.

And, of course, there's the matter of religious freedom not being any significant part of the American Rebellion whatsoever.

You're right, but I have to say that I misspoke in my response... I should have said that I believe that our founding fathers' POTENTIAL saving grace would be that they (or some of them) rebelled for the purpose of religious freedom.

But thanks to your response, on second thought, I have to admit I don't even believe that. I earlier gave the example of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar and how despite Neb's attempts to make Daniel sin, Daniel did not rebel. He disobeyed but did not lead a rebellion. And as you pointed out in another of your posts, we are to disobey only in those situations where obedience to government would cause us to sin.

Thanks for your reply on this, and keeping me straight with my views. You are right in what you say.

 

[Adaephon]

Cite the verse in Scripture where Jesus told us to pay tax.

24 And when they were come to Capharnaum, they that recieved the didrachmas, came to Peter and said to him: Doth not your master pay the didrachmas? 25 He said: Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying: What is thy opinion, Simon? The kings of the earth, of whom do they receive tribute or custom? of their own children, or of strangers? 26 And he said: Of strangers. Jesus said to him: Then the children are free. 27 But that we may not scandalize them, go to the sea, and cast in a hook: and that fish which shall first come up, take: and when thou hast opened its mouth, thou shalt find a stater: take that, and give it to them for me and thee.


And Jesus answering, said to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

So you're somewhere between revolution being a sin and all out pacifism.
Are you pacifistic toward the government but not everyone else?

I very much agree with Augustine and Luther in this matter. Not to mention Paul the Apostle in Romans 13.

Cite the verse in Scripture where Jesus told us to pay tax.

You haven't heard of "render unto Caesar"?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Cite the verse in Scripture where Jesus told us to pay tax.

I'm actually pretty shocked that someone professing to be a Christian would ask this... but here you go:

Mark 12:
14 And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.
17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

So there you go, Jeff - look at the money in your wallet - whose inscriptions and symbols and images and emblems and names are on it? Render unto the US Government that which is the US Government's, and to God the things that are God's. It's no different today than it was in the day of Christ and the Pharisees.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I very much agree with Augustine and Luther in this matter. Not to mention Paul the Apostle in Romans 13.



You haven't heard of "render unto Caesar"?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/barr-j1.1.1.html

 

[Adaephon]

Render Unto Caesar: A Most Misunderstood New Testament Passage by Jeffrey F. Barr

Yes, that website looks totally on the level, authoritative teaching.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Yes, that website looks totally on the level, authoritative teaching.

Home

 

[ArmenianJohn]

[ link to lew rockwell website ]

Imagine that! A fake-Christian, anti-God, Mammon-worshiping website has an article trying to distort God's Word to say that Christ (and God's Word) never said to pay taxes!!!!

oh brother

 

[bricklayer]

I very much agree with Augustine and Luther in this matter. Not to mention Paul the Apostle in Romans 13.


Are you left to believe that Augustine, Luther and Paul were pacifistic toward government but not toward everyone else?
or all out pacifist?
or none of the above?

 

[jgarden]

My advice is that if you're going to steal, steal enough so that when the time comes you can afford the best American justice - money can buy.

You need not look any farther than the lack of convictions for those associated with the big American banks on Wall Street who were responsible for the 2008 financial meltdown - despite the fact that they reside in a nation that has 25% of the world's prison population but only 4% of its people.

 

[bricklayer]

My advice is that if you're going to steal, steal enough so that when the time comes you can afford the best American justice - money can buy.

You need not look any farther than the lack of convictions of those associated with the big American banks on Wall Street who were responsible for the 2008 financial meltdown - despite the fact that they reside in a nation that has 25% of the world's prison population but only 4% of its population.

Do you consider keeping too much of what you earn theft?
Would is matter if the tax rate was 100%? Would evasion still be theft? sin?