Is it wrong to keep more of what you earn than the government says you can?

[bricklayer]

Quick thought:

Simply not reporting income is probably the surest way of all tax evasion methods of getting caught. May I suggest hiring a good accountant to "legally" reducing your taxes like the big boys do.

I pay through the nose for bookkeeping and accounting, but I still got audited. They found stuff. We responded. They responded. In the end, I paid back taxes, interest and penalty. I definitely paid less that I would have if I did not have good representation.

It wasn't unreported income that got me. It was not scheduling expenses that should have been scheduled out over a number of years. I took them all at once, and I shouldn't have. So, I paid.

 

[Subdood]

Two actions that would change people's minds about the income tax in an instant:

1) Move tax day from April 15th to November 1st.
2) Eliminate withholding and make tax payers write a check to the government.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Right - there was the whole recession thing that tanked revenues.



It's interesting to see how Clinton was portrayed as a liberal boogeyman back in the 90's (anyone else remember "America Held Hostage: Day xxx"?), and now that we have a new boogeyman, Clinton is portrayed as a smart, fairly responsible, moderate-liberal.

-Dan.

My opinion of Clinton hasn't changed as you seem to suggest
(Actually, I was fairly liberal back when he was still in office)

So I've never viewed him as the Liberal Boogeyman.

 

[kermit]

I'm not going to mince words. I lied, cheated and got caught.
I am very sorry that I got caught.

Interesting that you sorry you got caught, not that you lied and cheated.

I've heard it said that a state trooper can find fault with a brand new truck and that the IRS can find fault with any return.

Not true. My wife works at a tax office and a some of their business clients get auditted every year. Very few are found to be at some fault. The ones that are found to be at fault did legitimately misreport something. Some of the auditted business clients actually ended up getting money from the IRS because it was discovered that they overpaid. Of all the stories she tells I can only think of one where the person honestly tried to do the right thing and still got penalized.

 

[bricklayer]

Interesting that you sorry you got caught, not that you lied and cheated.

I do not have any remorse. I regret being caught, but that's it.

Recipients feel no remorse. Why should I?

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

Of course it is illegal, but is it wrong to keep what you earn,
if the government passes a law saying that you cannot?

Is there any circumstance in which you would not declare income?

We MUST obey Caesar's laws, if doing so does not make us break God's. Therefore: If the law says you have to pay XX% in taxes, you pay XX% in taxes, and not a penny less. End of story.

 

[bricklayer]

We MUST obey Caesar's laws, if doing so does not make us break God's. Therefore: If the law says you have to pay XX% in taxes, you pay XX% in taxes, and not a penny less. End of story.

So, those involved in the American Revolution were in sin?
The original tea party was over lower taxes than we have now.
The English monarchy exerted less upon our forefathers than our government does now.

Is the call to pay Cesar a call for stasis?

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

I think a number of circumstances must be true before a failure to declare income might be consider "okay".

1. You and others in your position must have little or no say in the political process and no legal means to bring about meaningful change in politics.

2. The taxes you pay must be high enough that they substantially impact your quality of life.

3. The government is not using your tax dollars to provide the services you need.

If all three of those are true, then I'd see nothing wrong with those individuals fighting to keep the money they earn regardless of what the law says they should pay.

Completely arbitrary:

1: This is completely irrelevant, if you look upon what kind of society Jesus and those who heard him say "render unto Caesar..." lived in.
There WAS no say for the common man in running government, and certainly not the common JUDEAN man. Didn't matter to Jesus.

2: Who gets to determine when this criteria is met? Maybe I feel my "quality of life" depends on having MUCH more money than you do. Are you then saying that I would be right to cheat on my taxes, but you wouldn't?

3: Related to #2. What if I feel I need a free car, and government isn't providing it for me? Moreover, I don't have kids, so why should I have to pay for schools, etc?

There is ONE criteria and only one:
Has the authority of the country in which you live, decided that you should pay this percentage? If yes, then you pay, plain and simple. We are called to obey Caesar's laws no matter how unfair they might seem to us, SO LONG AS doing so does not force us to break God's laws.

Jesus talked about rendering under Ceasar what was his - I think you'd have a tough time making an argument that the Roman Empire was more worthy of their tax dollars than the American government is of yours.

Who gets to determine whether or not a particular country is "worthy" of taxes?

Wrong by whose standards?

The IRS & Federal government would tell you that you're wrong based on the US revised code...

However, from my personal opinion, I wouldn't say you were wrong for doing so.

So....we can pick and choose which laws we want to follow, based on how we personally feel about them?

So, those involved in the American Revolution were in sin?

Was it a sin to rise up in rebellion over minimal issues, which nowhere NEAR a majority of the colonists supported?
I'd lean towards yes. However, it is a testimony to the greatneess of God, that He turned something that was originally sinful, into a blessing the like of which the world hasn't seen for centuries: The USA.

Is the call to pay Cesar a call for stasis?

I think I made myself pretty clear: Unless Caesar's laws necessitates breaking God's, then Caesar MUST be obeyed. The First Church understood this. The Early Church understood this, even when Caesar was persecuting it quite ferociously.

 

[Mediaeval]

The principle behind paying one's taxes without complaint is expressed in our Lord's words, "Whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." The government compels, for government is force with the threat of violence. We pay our taxes because compelled to do so. However, the money was ours who earned it, not the government's.

 

[GarfieldJL]

We MUST obey Caesar's laws, if doing so does not make us break God's. Therefore: If the law says you have to pay XX% in taxes, you pay XX% in taxes, and not a penny less. End of story.

To be quite blunt Caesar's tax code wasn't a convoluted mess like our tax code is. A lot of people get hit with fines from the IRS, because the tax code made no sense, not because they were intending to cheat on taxes...

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

To be quite blunt Caesar's tax code wasn't a convoluted mess like our tax code is. A lot of people get hit with fines from the IRS, because the tax code made no sense, not because they were intending to cheat on taxes...

And that's an entirely different matter. There is a difference, or there SHOULD be, between accidentally paying too little because the tax code is byzantine, and saying: "I'll cheat a bit here to get off easier".

 

[GarfieldJL]

And that's an entirely different matter. There is a difference, or there SHOULD be, between accidentally paying too little because the tax code is byzantine, and saying: "I'll cheat a bit here to get off easier".

If we want to talk about tax cheats we should start with Turbo Tax Cheat Timothy Geitner whom was/is Obama's Treasury Secretary....

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

If we want to talk about tax cheats we should start with Turbo Tax Cheat Timothy Geitner whom was/is Obama's Treasury Secretary....

Why do you talk as if anyone here (apart from the OP) has defended any kind of tax evasion from anyone?

 

[GarfieldJL]

Why do you talk as if anyone here (apart from the OP) has defended any kind of tax evasion from anyone?

I'm just saying that people in government should be held to the same standards that they place on us.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

I'm just saying that people in government should be held to the same standards that they place on us.

You'll get no argument from me...

 

[bricklayer]

The principle behind paying one's taxes without complaint is expressed in our Lord's words, "Whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." The government compels, for government is force with the threat of violence. We pay our taxes because compelled to do so. However, the money was ours who earned it, not the government's.

Are all revolutions and resistance to government since sinful?
We our American forefathers sinning for rebelling?

 

[bricklayer]

I would harbor a tax fugitive.
I have absolutely no sense of duty to comply with the Fed. tax code.
I comply only because of the risk of non-compliance.

 

[iluvatar5150]

My opinion of Clinton hasn't changed as you seem to suggest
(Actually, I was fairly liberal back when he was still in office)

So I've never viewed him as the Liberal Boogeyman.

While my phrasing may have implied that that comment was directed at you, it was really intended as more of a general statement. You're not the only conservative I've seen lately talking about Clinton as if he wasn't all that bad. I believe you when you say that your personal opinion of him hasn't changed, but there's been enough of a shift in the collective opinion among conservatives, that IMO, it erodes at what little credibility they've got left.

-Dan.

 

[GarfieldJL]

While my phrasing may have implied that that comment was directed at you, it was really intended as more of a general statement. You're not the only conservative I've seen lately talking about Clinton as if he wasn't all that bad. I believe you when you say that your personal opinion of him hasn't changed, but there's been enough of a shift in the collective opinion among conservatives, that IMO, it erodes at what little credibility they've got left.

-Dan.

The opinion of Clinton hasn't changed for a lot of Conservatives, it's just Obama is so bad that he makes Jimmy Carter look like a good President.

 

[ChristOurCaptain]

The opinion of Clinton hasn't changed for a lot of Conservatives, it's just Obama is so bad that he makes Jimmy Carter look like a good President.

This
Without any other kind of comparison (and I'm aware of the risk of using this image, because of the "OBAMA IS A COMMIE!"-nonsense), it's more or less the same with Lenin vis a vis Stalin.
Everyone remember how messed up Stalin was, and tend to say "Lenin would have been MUCH kinder", while forgetting that it was Lenin who set up the brutal and inhuman Soviet Union in the first place, and ran it in its first years. Yes, Stalin was worse than Lenin, but Lenin was a homicidal madman as well.