Is it really appeasement? Yes, but choose your outcome.

[FutureAndAHope]

I have made some statements on ways that I feel that the conflict in Ukraine could be ended. The most recent of which can be seen below. However, people seem to be calling what I am writing appeasement. Or giving into Putin. However, I would like to make a defense of my statements. Firstly in my plan I suggest giving in to Putin’s demand for demilitarization of Ukraine, but Ukraine is able to maintain it’s current government (see full plan in more detail below), while International Peacekeepers suppress the rebel East.

Is it really appeasement? What we have currently with NATO and the US is appeasement, allowing Ukrainians to fight an die in their own war. Which unless a miracle occurs will eventually be lost to the Russians.

So I want to state, what we currently have:

A war where Ukraine eventually loses, in the process losing more cities, and more Ukrainian lives, to the Russian force. While the West watches and does nothing substantial to turn the tide. The West rightly fearing WW3.


My Plan

In my plan, yes Ukraine demilitarizes, but maintains it’s government, and maintains the lives of its people, and citizens.

Both plans contain appeasement, but mine saves Ukrainian lives.

===QUOTE PLAN ==

The Plan I am Presenting

Russia

Russia has stated in the media that it has “security concerns” (a) in Ukraine, and that the war is an effort to demilitarize Ukraine (b), that it does not seek to occupy the region. I believe this “security concern” has been fueled by military investment by Western Nations (c) in Ukraine. There may be other grievances.

Ukraine

Ukraine also has security concerns, and now war in the region. In particular their constant struggle with Russian Separatists in the East (d). Ukraine may have other grievances.

Proposed Peace Solution



Ukraine is to demilitarize on its own accord in accord with demand (b). It is not to receive arms or military aid from Western Nations in response to point (c).

Ukraine is to maintain its current governance and laws.


Russia is not to support financing or other activities toward the Russian Separatists in the region. Russia must cease to support the Separatists in line with grievance (d). To enforce this treaty, International Peace Keepers must be sent to Eastern Ukraine, financed by money that would normally be spent on military equipment by Ukraine, and its Western allies. These peacekeepers will be responsible for maintaining peace in the region. The force must be from nations approved by both Russia and the West, i.e. not US bases.

Russia is to leave Ukraine immediately, and cease it war.

===END QUOTE PLAN ==

We have to choose what type of appeasement, we will allow. Reasonable: surrender to Putin’s demand for demilitarization, to save lives. Or unreasonable, sit by and watch Ukraine implode, while we do precious little to help, while every last drop of Ukrainian blood is spilled.

 

[jacks]

I think you make some thoughtful points. Some sort of compromise will undoubtedly be necessary. I wonder what the substance of the current "peace talks" has been and what the sticking points are. All I read is that they couldn't agree, but on what I'm not sure.

 

[Fantine]

I don't really think NATO and the US are practicing appeasement. NATO has a lot of vulnerability with an actively militarized Russia, and they don't want to take any chances.
But Russia is not the behemoth it was before 1989. They only have 144 million people. Their economy is one-dimensional, based almost entirely on oil. If they didn't have that huge nuclear arsenal no one would consider them one of the top world powers.
And that's why the sanctions will be so damaging. Unfortunately, the people of Russia will be harmed much sooner than the Russian government will. They will claim all the goods that they can acquire will be for the "war effort."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I don't really think NATO and the US are practicing appeasement. NATO has a lot of vulnerability with an actively militarized Russia, and they don't want to take any chances.
But Russia is not the behemoth it was before 1989. They only have 144 million people. Their economy is one-dimensional, based almost entirely on oil. If they didn't have that huge nuclear arsenal no one would consider them one of the top world powers.
And that's why the sanctions will be so damaging. Unfortunately, the people of Russia will be harmed much sooner than the Russian government will. They will claim all the goods that they can acquire will be for the "war effort."

You are right in one sense, there are valid fears, but I am sure Ekranians right now wish we would get off our backsides and help them out. Although I am more for peace talks than war, NATO's fear of WW3 and Russia is appeasement, it is giving in, and letting Ekranians die, while we watch. As the saying goes:

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,”

But like I said I am for peace talks, NATO attacking Russia, would in my opinion lead to WW3. Only more death and destruction.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

From the following article:

“Putin stressed that a settlement is possible only if Russia’s legitimate security interests are unconditionally taken into account, including the recognition of Russian sovereignty over Crimea, the demilitarisation and denazification of the Ukrainian state and ensuring its neutral status,” the Kremlin said.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/wo...n/news-story/b956bf60c8c18385d248c04dad72dcf9

I believe any settlement made needs to be just, the demand of "recognition of Russian sovereignty over Crimea" to me seems unfair from my limited knowledge of the history of this conflict.

Peace should seek a "just" end to the conflict. It is pushing the line to demand demilitarization, to ask for Crimea to be recognized when the history of that area seems to be an unjust annexation by Russia is a bit rich.

It is almost like Russia has been committing sins in Ukraine for many years under the radar, but now it has burst onto the world stage. Russia needs to be giving up its injustice in the region, including its claim to Crimea.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

.... deleted this post .... not so sure it is wise.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Edit
==

It appears to be against forum rules to place personal prophecy on this site, but you can have it in your blog. So I have removed it here and linked to what I think of the current state of the conflict here My thoughts on the Ukraine Conflict? | Everybody Matters Ministry

End Edit
=====

 

[jacks]

If we "join the war" militarily, do you think nuclear weapons will be used?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

If we "join the war" militarily, do you think nuclear weapons will be used?

I don't know. But if Russia were to use them, the West would too. It is a risk both ways.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

My thought is that this is a fight for Ukraine, not Russian territory. As Nations, we should not push beyond Ukraine. This reduces the risk of Nuclear War.

 

[jacks]

I don't know. But if Russia were to use them, the West would too. It is a risk both ways.

I think you're right, it is a scary thought. As much as I feel for the people in Ukraine, I'm not sure a wider (nuclear) war would help them. If we got in and Putin backed down, that would be great; but if he escalated things we could actually make matters worse for everyone.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I think you're right, it is a scary thought. As much as I feel for the people in Ukraine, I'm not sure a wider (nuclear) war would help them. If we got in and Putin backed down, that would be great; but if he escalated things we could actually make matters worse for everyone.

Yeah it is hard to tell. That is why I was seeking God, I want to promote things that He believes, not what I might think.

Sometimes, escalation is even a part of God's will. Speaking as a man, there are some pretty evil things that go on in parts of the world. War is often needed to cleanse it. If evil takes sides with evil, then the better has a chance to fight it, and restore justice.

 

[hislegacy]

We have to choose what type of appeasement, we will allow. Reasonable: surrender to Putin’s demand for demilitarization, to save lives. Or unreasonable, sit by and watch Ukraine implode, while we do precious little to help, while every last drop of Ukrainian blood is spilled.

No, we don’t have to choose anything. Ukraine is a sovereign nation that will made decisions for itself.

If they wanted to surrender their land, they would have.

Putin is a deceiver and liar you can trust him to do nothing. His goal is to re establish the Russian Empire.

Appeasement only encourages and enables him to take over other sovereign nations.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No, we don’t have to choose anything. Ukraine is a sovereign nation that will made decisions for itself.

If they wanted to surrender their land, they would have.

Putin is a deceiver and liar you can trust him to do nothing. His goal is to re establish the Russian Empire.

Appeasement only encourages and enables him to take over other sovereign nations.

Sometimes there needs to be compromised to save lives. However, we do have to choose, and yes we can not choose appeasement. But what we the West is doing is appeasement, sitting in fear, cowering at the prospect of war, as Ukrainians die.

It is true what a Baptist Pastor I know stated on Facebook:

What is going on in the world today can be compared to people standing around watching a bully beat a smaller person up un-mercifully and saying I don’t want to get involved, or saying, If you don’t stop I’m going to tell on you. When all along the victim is begging for help and mercy while the bully is beating him to death. And we scream about bullies at school, rightly so, and yet set back and let this go on???


Edit
==

It appears to be against forum rules to place personal prophecy on this site, but you can have it in your blog. So I have removed it here and linked to what I think of the current state of the conflict here My thoughts on the Ukraine Conflict? | Everybody Matters Ministry

End Edit
=====

 

[hislegacy]

Sometimes there needs to be compromised to save lives. However, we do have to choose, and yes we can not choose appeasement. But what we the West is doing is appeasement, sitting in fear, cowering at the prospect of war, as Ukrainians die.

It is true what a Baptist Pastor I know stated on Facebook:

What is going on in the world today can be compared to people standing around watching a bully beat a smaller person up un-mercifully and saying I don’t want to get involved, or saying, If you don’t stop I’m going to tell on you. When all along the victim is begging for help and mercy while the bully is beating him to death. And we scream about bullies at school, rightly so, and yet set back and let this go on???


As I stated in an earlier post that you may have missed. As I was praying, I believe God's heart is moved to help the Ukrainians. He wants the West to join the war militarily, while still leaving the peace table open. I wrote about it here What I believe the LORD is saying on Ekraine

First, name one time appeasement has worked.

second, to use you bully example.

three ways to stop a bully.

One: Appease him and give him what he wants, which doesn’t stop him from being a bully to others and saves no lives.

Two: you step in between the bully and victim and physically prevent the bullly from proceeding

three: you take away the bully’s ability to hurt the victim.

I believe God is dealing with people about the third. If we and NATO were to cut off all energy, finances and electronics from Russia. The bully would be crippled in their ability to wage war.

 

[tobyw]

Firstly in my plan I suggest giving in to Putin’s demand for demilitarization of Ukraine, but Ukraine is able to maintain it’s current government (see full plan in more detail below), while International Peacekeepers suppress the rebel East.

Do you believe that what Putin says he wants is representative of what he truly wants?

Doesn't your plan hinge on Putin not being an aggressor at heart, but rather simply someone who has been forced to act in this way out of security concerns?

What if the truth is that Putin is actually an expansionist egomaniac trying to resurrect the Soviet Union? Or that all this nonsense about denazification and security is just a cover?

If it's the latter, then appeasement will likely just serve Putin's interests as it did Hitler's. Give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Do you believe that what Putin says he wants is representative of what he truly wants?

Doesn't your plan hinge on Putin not being an aggressor at heart, but rather simply someone who has been forced to act in this way out of security concerns?

What if the truth is that Putin is actually an expansionist egomaniac trying to resurrect the Soviet Union? Or that all this nonsense about denazification and security is just a cover?

If it's the latter, then appeasement will likely just serve Putin's interests as it did Hitler's. Give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile.

I guess we need to approach people based upon what they say, based upon the off chance they may be speaking the truth. But I fully understand his motives may be 100% different from what he says, it could well be a cover.

At the moment we need to be considering what Putin said about sanctions being a "declaration of war", the sanctions have put him in a corner, along with the criminal court saying "he is war criminal". What does he have to gain by sitting back, nothing. The longer he waits the weaker Russia becomes. Right now Russia is at its strongest point. Under these conditions he will most likely attack the West. Sure it is only a maybe, but militarily, economically, it makes sense.

 

[hislegacy]

but militarily, economically, it makes sense.

Apologies, but no, it does not. There is history and tens of millions dead to prove it.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Apologies, but no, it does not. There is history and tens of millions dead to prove it.

I understand that Putin may consider that. But you have to realize they say he is a war criminal, his own life is threatened. He also did not consider the lives of the Ukrainians in his plans in his current war.

I could be entirely wrong, he did say of (global) war, "I am glad it has not come to that".

 

[tobyw]

At the moment we need to be considering what Putin said about sanctions being a "declaration of war", the sanctions have put him in a corner, along with the criminal court saying "he is war criminal". What does he have to gain by sitting back, nothing. The longer he waits the weaker Russia becomes. Right now Russia is at its strongest point. Under these conditions he will most likely attack the West. Sure it is only a maybe, but militarily, economically, it makes sense.

I don't follow. What would Putin have to gain by militarily attacking the West, when the West could absolutely steamroll Russia? It appears he can barely take Ukraine. He has a lot of bark for someone without much bite, relatively speaking.