Is it Possible to be a Decent person and support Pro-Choice Candidates?

[Literal Word]

Just what the title asks. How can someone claim any level of decency and support candidates who support the murder of unborn babies. In todays politics, the line has been drawn as clearly as ever. One party is now even refusing to save the lives of children that survive an abortion. I am just wondering what liberal political issue is so important to support that the voter can overlook the sinister practice of killing the unborn. Honestly I would like to know because at this point I am inclined to believe there is no justification for supporting pro-choice candidates any longer and perhaps never has been since Roe v Wade. By the way, I'm not some rabid neocon ultra conservative either. The GOP spends too much themselves, is full of crooks as well, and are warmongers in general.

 

[sfs]

Just what the title asks.

The answer is, sure.

How can someone claim any level of decency and support candidates who support the murder of unborn babies.

One can't. One can, however, claim a level of decency and support candidates who support the right to abortion. The equation "all abortion = murder" is true in your mind, not in mine.

 

[Literal Word]

The answer is, sure.

One can't. One can, however, claim a level of decency and support candidates who support the right to abortion. The equation "all abortion = murder" is true in your mind, not in mine.

Interesting... I appreciate your response. As a follow up question, do you consider any abortion murder? Thanks

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

All sin can be justified in the mind of the sinner. He should consider whether it is justified in the mind of God, who judges these things.

 

[sfs]

Interesting... I appreciate your response. As a follow up question, do you consider any abortion murder? Thanks

Sure. I'd probably consider a late-term abortion of a fetus that could survive outside the womb to be murder, although there might be considerations in particular circumstances that would change that judgment. And I probably wouldn't choose abortion myself, were it up to me, under almost any circumstances. The one time it came up as a possibility in my life (a pregnancy that might have been a trisomy 18), we did not consider abortion.

Also, thanks for your civil response.

 

[Literal Word]

All sin can be justified in the mind of the sinner. He should consider whether it is justified in the mind of God, who judges these things.

Now I'm confused. You clearly implied all abortion is not murder in your mind. Are you retracting that? Please clarify.

 

[Literal Word]

Now I'm confused. You clearly implied all abortion is not murder in your mind. Are you retracting that? Please clarify.

Sorry, responding to wrong person.

 

[Literal Word]

Sure. I'd probably consider a late-term abortion of a fetus that could survive outside the womb to be murder, although there might be considerations in particular circumstances that would change that judgment. And I probably wouldn't choose abortion myself, were it up to me, under almost any circumstances. The one time it came up as a possibility in my life (a pregnancy that might have been a trisomy 18), we did not consider abortion.

Also, thanks for your civil response.

I see. Can I infer then, in your opinion, that in cases you feel are indeed unquestionably murder, that the person has lost any claim to decency?

 

[tampasteve]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved to the "Debates on Abortion" forum, note that the SOP may be different from the original forum.

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[sfs]

I see. Can I infer then, in your opinion, that in cases you feel are indeed unquestionably murder, that the person has lost any claim to decency?

No. I understand the impulse to demonize those who do things we find morally reprehensible, but I think it mainly serves to make us feel good about ourselves. I can disagree with someone profoundly about some moral issues and agree with them on others.

 

[com7fy8]

How can someone claim any level of decency and support candidates who support the murder of unborn babies.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 says to pray "for" any and all people, I understand. So, yes we are to support any person, at all. But this does not mean we approve of what the person is doing. God wants us to have hope for any person, in our prayer > love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

So, in case we are not loving any and all people like Jesus desires us to do, our lack of loving and caring prayer could be helping to keep the abortion going. So, in case anyone is only about condemning and criticizing abortion, such a person could be helping it to happen.

And there are, I suppose, people who are using the abortion issue only in order to get votes. This is not decent.

I think there is a point to be concerned about how well we are going to help and support a woman who decides not to have an abortion. Yes, they should take responsibility, but we all need each other's help, as God's children, don't we? So, decent includes being helpful. It is not only a balloting issue, then.

 

[Literal Word]

No. I understand the impulse to demonize those who do things we find morally reprehensible, but I think it mainly serves to make us feel good about ourselves. I can disagree with someone profoundly about some moral issues and agree with them on others.

Please don't take this an attack but you have by reasonable inference said that one can be a decent murderer. I'm sorry, but any claim that one who murders unborn babies, which you agree are murderers, can then claim any level of decency I do not understand. Also, your assertion my opinion is based on my judgement of what I feel is morally reprehensible is incorrect. I am not applying my moral judgement, I am applying God's word. He knew us before the womb. Thou shall not kill. God makes clear the judgement, not me. I think potted meat tastes good on Ritz crackers, don't follow my judgement at all. LOL So would you think God sees any level of decency in murdering an unborn baby? Surely not. Then my opinion or moral judgement is irrelevant.

 

[Literal Word]

1 Timothy 2:1-4 says to pray "for" any and all people, I understand. So, yes we are to support any person, at all. But this does not mean we approve of what the person is doing. God wants us to have hope for any person, in our prayer > love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

So, in case we are not loving any and all people like Jesus desires us to do, our lack of loving and caring prayer could be helping to keep the abortion going. So, in case anyone is only about condemning and criticizing abortion, such a person could be helping it to happen.

And there are, I suppose, people who are using the abortion issue only in order to get votes. This is not decent.

I think there is a point to be concerned about how well we are going to help and support a woman who decides not to have an abortion. Yes, they should take responsibility, but we all need each other's help, as God's children, don't we? So, decent includes being helpful. It is not only a balloting issue, then.

Wow, that is a very creative leap of logic to say condemning abortion is helping it to happen. For obvious reasons that would be a fallacious argument.

 

[FireDragon76]

You think the way you do because you've bought into the narrative created by the Religious Right, that abortion is predominantly an issue of good vs. evil, complete with a great deal of propaganda that demonizes those of us who disagree with their politics.

I think abortion is a complicated issue and women's individual moral autonomy should generally be the overriding concern.

 

[sfs]

Please don't take this an attack but you have by reasonable inference said that one can be a decent murderer.

I'm saying that one can be a decent person by their own standards and be a murderer by someone else's standards, and that in other areas their standards might overlap a lot. Take a version of the same argument that has different emotional valence for the two sides. Suppose you are one who thinks that any deliberate taking of human life is murder, and that all soldiers who have killed are therefore murderers. Do you think any soldiers have been decent human beings? Do you think that's an outrageous thing to suggest?

Also, your assertion my opinion is based on my judgement of what I feel is morally reprehensible is incorrect. I am not applying my moral judgement, I am applying God's word. He knew us before the womb.

People apply God's word in all sorts of ways, and the way you do very much reflects what you feel to be morally reprehensible. Sure, God also knew us in the womb. He also knew us before the foundation of the world. Does that mean that my great-grandmother would have been committing murder if she had avoided sex outside of wedlock and had therefore refrained from producing my grandmother?

Thou shall not kill. God makes clear the judgement, not me.

So soldiers are murderers, right?

 

[com7fy8]

Wow, that is a very creative leap of logic to say condemning abortion is helping it to happen. For obvious reasons that would be a fallacious argument.

That's not what I wrote, I'm pretty sure. Please check it closer.

What I think I said is that if someone is not praying with real caring for abortion people, this lack of prayer could help to keep it going. And I mean > if I am only condemning abortion people, without caring for them like Jesus on the cross was doing, then my condemning could be self-righteous so it is not effective like we can be in real and loving prayer.

There are people who defeat the purpose, by how they attack pro-choice people, don't you think? This is what I mean.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I'm thinking conundrums like the OP's are good reason to stay away from voting altogether.

More towards the question, not me, not ever.

 

[Literal Word]

You think the way you do because you've bought into the narrative created by the Religious Right, that abortion is predominantly an issue of good vs. evil, complete with a great deal of propaganda that demonizes those of us who disagree with their politics.

I think abortion is a complicated issue and women's individual moral autonomy should generally be the overriding concern.

This is my first day on this forum and I'm shocked by so many who don't see a problem with murdering babies and calling themselves Christian. Now I have firedragon telling me murder is political and that a woman's individual subjective morality is the overriding concern. Wow. I am at a loss for words. Firedragon also seems to be gifted with the ability to tell others why they think the way they do. Please tell me how you acquired this supernatural ability.

 

[Literal Word]

Ok, we're getting off base here. Let's everyone see if we can get back to common ground. Can we all agree that abortion is evil? If not, you simply cannot maintain a Christian worldview. I never thought I would see so many responses apologizing and justifying murder of unborns on a Christian forum.

 

[Literal Word]

That's not what I wrote, I'm pretty sure. Please check it closer.

What I think I said is that if someone is not praying with real caring for abortion people, this lack of prayer could help to keep it going. And I mean > if I am only condemning abortion people, without caring for them like Jesus on the cross was doing, then my condemning could be self-righteous so it is not effective like we can be in real and loving prayer.

There are people who defeat the purpose, by how they attack pro-choice people, don't you think? This is what I mean.

No, I'm sorry I do not. Abortion is a vile practice akin in my opinion to Luciferian child sacrifice. I would say the more loudly someone can protest this practice, the better. You seem to think condemning this practice is somehow bad. I have no idea how anyone could logically arrive at that conclusion.