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Featured Is it possible for one to "fall away" or lose salvation once saved, and what does "falling away"?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. Tharseo

    Tharseo Member

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    Hebrews 6:4-6
    For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

    Have you ever tasted the heavenly gift, the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, not from knowledge but in reality?

    If so, God bless. To be honest, I don't know many Christians who have ever tasted all of these things. If this passage is spoken to non-believers/false believers, then I confess I am worse than a non/false believer. Not to mention that this passage says that they have shared in the Holy Spirit, which is not non-believers would have.

    "Falling into the hands of the Living God" means that he is being judged by God (see the previous verse), which means he is no longer under the grace of not being judged for his sins.

    There are people like what you say, looks like a believer but is truly not. But this does not prove the point that all true believers can never lose their salvation.
     
  2. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    So based on your premise, you would have no problem at all accepting the mark? Yes or No? Or, are you claiming that you as a believer could never do such a thing? By taking the mark, a believer demonstrates that he is now denying the Lord as he takes the mark and worships the beast per Rev 14:9. Denying the Lord is certainly possible for you or any other believer. Don't you remember the example of Peter? He walked and talked with Jesus face-to-face on a daily basis and confidently proclaimed that he would never deny Jesus; yet he denied Jesus not once but three times. Yet you (and I) who have never seen the Lord assert that you could never do such a thing? Peter's example is for the benefit of the rest of us to take heed lest we also boast.

    Furthermore, you need to read the passage for what is says rather than what you think it says. The passage certainly does not state that it impossible for a child of God to receive the mark of the beast. Revelation 14:12 states that instead of accepting the mark and worshiping the beast, the saints are called to endure by keeping the commands and their faith in Jesus. If it were impossible for the saints to take the mark as you claim, such an admonition would be senseless.
     
  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I have the reassurance of being personally saved for heaven no matter what, but I can't speak for others...

    I meant they were rhetorical in the fact, that I think I already know the answers to some of the type or types or questions I have been asking...

    "The Commandment", is different from "The Commandments" and because of the way we try to keep "the commandments" and due to us, it makes you in near directly oppossed opposition and conflict with "The Commandment" or the Greatest Commandment(s)... In short Faith and Love...

    Not much to nothing having to do with sin, or sin or ones ability to keep and or live up to the OT Law Covenant or what we call "The Commandments", see here:

    We never were ever justified or chosen by (our ability to keep) the Law, ever, God never changed...

    God Bless!
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Don't know who that is...?

    God Bless!
     
  5. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    Revelation 14:12 (KJV)
    Here is the patience of the saints : here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    This verse is for those who have not accepted the mark of the Beast , but rather accepted Christ as Saviour.



    One who is saved/sealed by the indwelling of The Holy Spirit cannot receive the mark of the Beast even if they were deceived into consenting.

    I believe you are misunderstanding the verse.
    The mark of the Beast has no bearing in regards to the saved children of God.
    The mark of the Beast is powerless to The Holy Spirit .
     
  6. Tharseo

    Tharseo Member

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    Hebrews 11:36-38
    Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

    I am actually quite annoyed by the idea that people think God promised to save us from harm physically. Spiritually, yes, but there is no promise for physical life. God may occasionally save us from harm physically. See the history of Church in the early 1st-3rd century. "Enduring to the end will be saved" is a promise that must be fulfilled whenever the condition is met, for God is faithful.

    Not scriptural to say that Ananias and Sapphira do not lose eternal life. Where do you find proves of it? I personally do not find any concrete proves that they have or have not lost eternal life.

    Also, in a similar sense, not scriptural to say that 1 Corinthians 11 is speaking of the physical life but not the spiritual life.

    Hmm. Let me think more on this topic if I have the time. I am not sure about it. You might have a point here.

    But loving the present world is. Loving the world makes you an enemy of God.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  7. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    The "Lose your salvation" question has been asked and answered in many thousands of threads on countless forums over the past couple of decades ... many of which I have personally read and participated in. And in all that time I've never seen anyone ever change his or her mind once it is made up on this topic. So, I don't see the point of debate.

    Having said that, however, the followup question, "If you take the mark of the beast do you still have eternal life?" adds an interesting twist that brings to mind something worth mentioning ... the presence and influence of the "Restrainer."

    Once the Restrainer (2Thes 2:7), the Holy Spirit, is "taken out of the way" at the rapture of the church and the Great Tribulation begins, salvation will revert back to as it was pre-cross when OT believers were saved by faith in the future sacrifice of the Son of God on the cross. But, since the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost had not happened yet, there was no eternal assurance for them as we know it today.

    That's why examples of the OT "faithful" losing their salvation can be found ... with examples even of some who went back and forth gaining salvation, losing it and regaining it again.

    So it will be again when the Holy Spirit is more or less out of the picture during the Day of the Lord's great soul harvest. He will still be doing His works, but there will be no "Pentecost" type of general indwelling of the Holy Spirit for the saved during that period. As it was for the OT saved waiting in Paradise (Luke 16) for Christ's sacrifice on the cross, the Day of the Lord saved must wait for the Lord to return and call them, the living and the dead during that period, into their eternal reward (Sheep and Goats judgment, etc.).

    Then the answer to the followup question would be, yes, someone during the Day of the Lord who has professed faith in the Lord could fall and choose to receive the mark of the beast out of expediency ... to save his or her life, to buy and sell, etc. ... but Scripture is very clear that doing so will damn them to the Lake of Fire (Rev 14:10).

    That's because with the Holy Spirit out of the picture Pentecost-wise, and having no assurance of eternal salvation as we know it, their salvation is dependent on an abiding faith, as it was during OT times. And, people being only human, you know how that goes ...

    All this to say how much better it would be for everyone living today to give themselves to the Lord, to be assured of their salvation, and to avoid the horrible consequences that befall anyone who dies today outside of Christ, or who finds themselves going into the Day of the Lord fighting to survive against unrestrained evil and having to maintain faith until Christ's second coming.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    The Holy Spirit is and has been restraining the Devil, and once He's gone, tribulation, real tribulation really begins...

    I wanted to ask you though...? What does it mean to be "in Christ"...? or have Christ in you, ect...?

    God Bless!
     
  9. Tharseo

    Tharseo Member

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    I have read your post and I am glad that you are walking in the Spirit.

    But I am not sure it is good for a person to think that he himself is saved "no matter what", at least it is not in my mind. You can receive assurance from the Spirit that you are truly born again and will be saved if you continue to walk in faith. But maybe one day we lose our faith to walk in the Spirit. Who knows? Only God knows.
     
  10. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Look him up. He is the most famous fallen away Christian scholar today.
     
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  11. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    This is talking about those going through the period of the Great Tribulation. Those who are still surviving at the end will be saved by the return of Jesus.
     
  12. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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  13. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    After reading that I was somewhat baffled.
    We all have been there, questioned ect.
    It is and or can be quite perplexing at times .
    The saddest part of what I read was the lack of faith.
     
  14. Loyce KG

    Loyce KG Everyone MUST hear the gospel of Christ!

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    I agree, so what does the text in Hebrews 6:4-8 mean?
     
  15. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth Supporter

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    The idea of eternal security is one that will be debated until the end of time, because cases for both positions can be made from the Scripture. I prefer to stick with the Articles of Remonstrance on this point (Article 5):

    That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.
    I just can't determine with certainty whether it is possible for a born again believer to leave their salvation.

    Here are some of the Scriptures supporting eternal security:

    Romans 8:38-39 NASB For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

    and

    John 10:27-30 NASB "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; (28) and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (29) "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (30) "I and the Father are one."
    and

    2 Timothy 1:12 NASB For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
    Here are some of the verses that support the possibility of final apostacy:

    Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
    and

    John 15:6 NASB "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
    and

    Romans 11:19-22 NASB You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." (20) Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; (21) for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. (22) Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    God is not a respecter of persons.
    I heard this false line of thinking by an Asian Baptist Pastor once. The New Covenant today teaches you can lose your salvation just as much as the OT saint can and or the Tribulation saint can.

    Ananias and Sapphira.
    Demas.
    A widow who can turn aside after Satan.
    The Parable of the Sower.
    The Parable of the Prodigal Son.

    I heard some who are so desperate to defend Eternal Security, they teach that no OT saint was ever saved. This means they get around the acid test question that asks: “Was King David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?”
     
  17. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you closely read John 17:6-12. Judas was elected by the Father, as Judas along with his cohorts were given to Jesus by the Father. I suppose you know what election entails? It never refers to unbelievers - only the elect. Judas was of the elect but by choosing to betray Christ, he fell away.
     
  18. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    The verse is indeed directed to the "saints." It admonishes them to persevere by keeping the commands of God and their faith in Jesus by not worshiping the beast and accepting the mark. Do you deny that you are 100% certain that you will never deny Jesus? If so, you are better than Peter who declared the same thing.
     
  19. Tharseo

    Tharseo Member

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    It is a rare thing happens to me that when I say something different on the Internet, people actually consider my views, not just rejecting my views by repeating the same arguments that I have said differently. I myself find it not an easy thing to listen and think than to speak. May God rewards you for your love of truth.

    I have never study Hebrews in great depth, so I am afraid I could not explain it to you in more details. But one thing that I am pretty sure. It is talking about believers who received the gift of the Spirit has turned away from the grace that God gave us, and there is no more salvation for these people.
     
  20. THE W

    THE W AFRIKANB0T

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    "falling away" simply means you followed Christ at one point and then stopped.
     
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