• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Is it possible for one to "fall away" or lose salvation once saved, and what does "falling away"?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. devin553344

    devin553344 Enlighten our lives dear Lord

    +1,548
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Republican
    Thanks for that. I wasn't going to share this but since you did I guess I will also. I have also wished I was never born because of afflictions I have suffered. I found it to be a temptation or spirit of the devil, and prayed to God and it was removed. The more I wished it the worse it got and longer it lasted. The feeling lasted on and off only for a few days thankfully.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  2. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    To lose your salvation can be a simple as hating someone, so guard your heart.

    1 John 3:
    13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

    16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

    18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.


    There are other passages which tell us those who practices these things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    Galatians 5:19-21
    19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  3. Tharseo

    Tharseo Member

    131
    +80
    China
    Christian
    Single
    I agree with Danielwright and 1stcenturylady that we must follow the commandments of Christ in order to be saved.

    I believe that justified by faith is scriptural, justified by faith alone is not. There are many passages that clearly shows that acts in accordance to faith is an important part for a person to be saved (Matthew 7:21-27, Matthew 25:31-46, to quote a few, and in 1stcenturylady's post).

    I do want to point out two things that I find it absurd if I believe that a person who is born again can never lose salvation. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, I am happy to listen to reasons.

    1. The fear of God. How do you practice the fear of God if you can never lose salvation? I don't understand, in theory and in reality. Paul told the Philippians to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). Philippians church is a healthy church, not some churches like the Corinthians. And Paul says that they "have always obeyed" in the same verse. I think this verse speaks to the true believers and the born again, that we shall be extremely careful to work out our salvation in daily life.

    2. In 1 Timothy 6:10-11, Paul told Timothy to "flee" from the love of money. In 2 Timothy 2:22, Paul told Timothy to "flee" from the youthful passions. If you meditate on these verse, it is absurd in a sense that, Timothy, an elder of several churches and a faithful follower, would ever think of committing these sins, and to think that he requires Paul to remind him so is absurd. If salvation is given to us permanently, there is no need to be that serious about sinning, because you are saved anyway, and the blood of Jesus can always cover your sin no matter how much you sin.

    A verse somewhere in Gospel of John says that whoever believes will never come into condemnation. And the word "believes" is present tense, not past tense. I don't think Jesus said that whoever "had ever believed" will never come into condemnation.
     
  4. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,059
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    If it were not possible for a person to fall away we wouldn't be warned so many times against falling away. The bible teaches repeatedly that a person who falls away cannot ever return. That was effectively set aside by the Church at the end of the last Roman persecutions.
     
  5. Tharseo

    Tharseo Member

    131
    +80
    China
    Christian
    Single
    Well, it is not always the case. See 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 and 2 Corinthians 2:7-10. But it is true that there is no promise for a person who falls away will always be able to return.
     
  6. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

    +992
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I find it interesting that the term "fall away" or "stumble" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away."

    Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."

    Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)
     
  7. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,059
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    More on point is Hebrews 6:

    [​IMG]Heb 6:4 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    [​IMG]Heb 6:5 - And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    [​IMG]Heb 6:6 - If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    That was used by Novatian at the end of the Decian persecution to prohibit those who had lapsed and accepted "the mark of the beast" from being readmitted to the Church.
     
  8. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    Falling away is also "leaving your first love." "Losing your lampstand" is losing your salvation.

    Revelation 2:
    ‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
     
  9. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

    939
    +399
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    That time in history is nothing like our time now, there are angles warning people not to accept the mark. Look in Revelation 14 first is seen the giving of the offer to receive eternal life. So some of those people may believe?(the verses do not say) then a warning about Babylon, then the warning about the mark. That warning is to all the world and that warning could go out to any new believer who accepted eternal life when the angels gave the gospel in the first of this chapter. So being a new believer they may possibly need a warning.

    But still in all the verses about the mark of the beast there is no, absolutely no where the Bible states that a believer accepts the mark of the beast and then looses their salvation
     
  10. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

    +992
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    How can you be so sure?

    This is part of the first of the seven letters in Revelation 2-3. These were letters from the Lord to seven local churches in Asia Minor. Clearly the Lord wanted the members of the church at Ephesus to repent, to change their attitudes regarding their works. "You have left your first love/repent and do the first works." Works of love no longer characterized the church at Ephesus. The preceding verses make it clear that this church was not totally displeasing to the Lord. He commended the Ephesian church for maintaining doctrinal purity in the face of false teachers in the Ephesian church. However, "doctrinal purity and loyalty can never be a substitute for love."

    The question in the verse before us is the warning which follows the Lord's command to repent. What did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lampstand if they did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not necessarily mean that individuals will lose their salvation, but the church can forfeit its place of light-bearing and witness. Ephesus is a city now wrapped in the mantle of Islam. The light of the church has indeed been removed there.
     
  11. Tharseo

    Tharseo Member

    131
    +80
    China
    Christian
    Single
    I am not familiar with the history about Novatian. Anyway, it is true that the Scripture says that those who fall away have no repentance for them (I will add Hebrews 10:26 for this point). But I will explain along with my reply to another post.

    To my understanding, the OP is not talking about this kind of "fall away". What you say is true, that a true believer can stray from God sometimes, but by repentance one regains his/her fellowship with God. This happens to me many times.

    However, what "fall away" the OP means, in scriptural terms, is the hardening of the heart.

    Hebrews 3:13-15
    But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

    If a person's heart is hardened to a point that it can no longer be softened again, then there are no repentance for him, because he refuses to listen to the Spirit, and there is no more "born again" to give him a heart of flesh over his heart of stone (Ezekiel 36:26). IMO Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking of the same thing here.
     
  12. woobadooba

    woobadooba Legend

    +856
    Christian
    Married
    Perhaps it would be best to ask the following questions:

    Is it possible to stop loving someone? Will people who hate God go to heaven?

    Is it possible to believe in God but have a rebellious heart towards Him? Will people who harden their heart against God go to heaven?
     
  13. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    That sounds reminiscent of the idea that not inheriting the Kingdom of God, is merely losing rewards.
     
  14. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

    +4,059
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Hebrews is speaking of, well, Hebrews who were baptized Christians - Christians in every sense of the term - who left christianity to return to Judaism. Those who abandoned Christianity and returned to their pre-Christian state could not ever return to Christianity.

    If we look to the Novatianist, they merely held to the teachings of scripture. Those who denied Christ under persecution were irretrievably lost and could not return to the Church.
     
  15. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

    +992
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) which are those who practice sin (Galatians 5:19-21). In CONTRAST to the righteous (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

    At the judgment seat of Christ, we see that believers will receive rewards and loss of rewards, but not loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).
     
  16. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,143
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
  17. Tharseo

    Tharseo Member

    131
    +80
    China
    Christian
    Single
    Could be. But I think the Book of Hebrews is not limited to address legalism. Turning back to the law makes you fall away from grace, so do many other sins.

    So who is the righteous? See the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46. What Jesus says about the righteous and the unrighteous? Is it so that believers who do not practice righteousness are still being consider righteous? Mind you that the goats did not receive salvation not because they sin, but because of the lack of righteous acts.
     
  18. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    +5,220
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    "Not judging by use of Gods Laws" is a better summation for:
    Galatians 5:4
    You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

    This would be for those who are persecuted and abandon faith:
    Mark 4:17
    And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

    Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

    This says such falling away is permanent:
    Hebrews 6:4-6
    For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

    This says that faithful believers can repair their lack of love in faith:
    Revelation 2:4-5
    But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

    This says "the proud" are in trouble. I consider these who judge others as the "proud" becasue they hold others lower than themselves due to their vile sins:
    Romans 11:19-22
    Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

    Matthew 24:10-13
    And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

    2 Peter 1:5-10
    For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.


    I see two groups, the proud who judge others by the law, then die by the law they claim to be keeping and those who abandon faith when times are tough.

    The first is leaning toward the law, but can be brought back to love under grace.
    The first group is deluded that the law saves, but they still believe in God but have not yet accepted Grace from the condemnation of law, under Jesus.


    The second group is lost permanently due to lack of faith in God altogether. We can still voice our love and concern but God will decide their final fate.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  19. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

    +2,353
    Catholic
    Married
    I would say an example of this would be Ivanka Trump. She was a baptized Christian who confessed Jesus Christ until she met her current husband, Jared Kushner. Ivanka, like the Christians who Paul condemned for turning away from Jesus to the Law and whom John called anti-christs, turned away from her Christian roots and took her vows in Judaism. She is now under the Law and not covered by the blood of the cross and grace.
     
  20. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

    939
    +399
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    You are not posting any part of the Bible addressing eternal life and a believer losing their eternal life.

    Enduring to the end will be saved, prove that that is talking about eternal life and not an actual physical life saving from harm.

    The Book of Hebrews is addressed to believers (Jewish) and is addressing falling away (discipleship) from the faith noting is said about loosing eternal life.

    John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

    So one verse that states a person can cross back over from life to death.

    Show one believer in the Bible who lost their eternal life.
     
Loading...