is it peter the rock? or is it jesus?

[Albion]

Okay, so Peter's compromise in that very chapter proves that neither he nor his faith can be the rock that Jesus was speaking of.

It could cast doubt on the idea that it was Peter's faith that was the rock, but not Peter the man.

 

[ajcarey]

That's quite obviously incorrect to say. Read what happened on Pentecost Sunday.

All of the Apostles were preaching on Pentecost Sunday, and though Peter was the main speaker when the crowd had fully assembled, he was not the only speaker which you'll see by a careful reading of Acts 2. And even if he had been, the only speaker, the other Apostles were involved in the same work doing the same things. And Peter was not an authority figure over them, as he was not even the Bishop at Jerusalem- again, that was James. And several of the other Apostles wrote Scripture, Paul and John much more so than Peter.

 

[prodromos]

Peter is a "type" of the Apostles. He is "Peter" because of his confession of Christ. It follows that all who confess Christ are "Peter"

 

[friend of]

"On this Rock [Jesus ministry and resurrection] I will build my church. The Lord is frequently referred to as Rock throughout the OT. 2 Samuel 22:2

 

[prodromos]

Jesus designated Peter for the task, and on Pentecost Sunday Peter preached his miraculous sermon to the people gathered from all around the empire resulting in 3000 of them being converted to the new faith. That was the first big membership breakthrough for the church, so Peter was the one on whom the church may be said to have been "built (up)."

Pentecost was one event in the building of the Church. It seems strange to insist the Church was built on Peter when it was equally, if not more so, built on the other Apostles, especially in light of Revelations 21:14

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.​

 

[Aussie Pete]

some people say that jesus was talking about himself about the rock

matthew 16:18

Lord Jesus is indeed the Rock. When He said "Upon this rock I will build my Church" he was referring to the revelation that Peter had just received. There are two words used for "rock". Peter is "Petros" while the "rock" the church is built on is "Petra". Other places in the Bible make it clear that the Lord Jesus is the Rock. There is no justification for saying that Peter is other than one of the founding apostles. He certainly is not the foundation of the Church.

 

[Anguspure]

some people say that jesus was talking about himself about the rock

matthew 16:18

Little stone or Big Rock?
Peter was a rock built on the foundation stone / bed rock that is Yeshua, and apart from Him, he was just a little rolling pebble.

 

[Aussie Pete]

That's quite obviously incorrect to say. Read what happened on Pentecost Sunday.

Peter proved himself to be fallible. I'm

Jesus said that it was his church, but that he was going to "build" it--not found it--on Peter.

Jesus designated Peter for the task, and on Pentecost Sunday Peter preached his miraculous sermon to the people gathered from all around the empire resulting in 3000 of them being converted to the new faith. That was the first big membership breakthrough for the church, so Peter was the one on whom the church may be said to have been "built (up)."

All the apostles were involved. Read the account again and you will see it for yourself. Yes, Peter preached the initial sermon. But the follow up that is essential for spiritual growth involved all the apostles

 

[Basil the Great]

Even if Peter was the rock upon which Jesus would build his Church, that does not necessarily mean that Peter's successors would have supremacy over all other bishops.

 

[Aussie Pete]

That's quite obviously incorrect to say. Read what happened on Pentecost Sunday.

Not true. Acts 2:42They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43A sense of aweg came over everyone, and the apostles performed many wonders and signs.

 

[Anguspure]

Peter proved himself to be fallible. I'm

All the apostles were involved. Read the account again and you will see it for yourself. Yes, Peter preached the initial sermon. But the follow up that is essential for spiritual growth involved all the apostles

Recognising the location setting they were in (Caesarea Philippi) when Jesus said these things is also enlightening. The temple of Pan was located there and a river spring poured out of a cave at the base of a large cliff. In niches carved into the rock of the cliff were placed statues to the honor of Pan. So when Jesus speaks, the apostles can see a picture of what they are in Him. He is the bed rock, the mighty buttress from which living water flows, and they are the stone figures that are placed in Him that proclaim and honor Him.

 

[Jonaitis]

some people say that jesus was talking about himself about the rock

matthew 16:18

He was referring to himself, and thus renamed Simon as "Peter" on account of the confession he made concerning who our Lord is.

 

[JIMINZ]

Jesus said that it was his church, but that he was going to "build" it--not found it--on Peter.

Jesus designated Peter for the task, and on Pentecost Sunday Peter preached his miraculous sermon to the people gathered from all around the empire resulting in 3000 of them being converted to the new faith. That was the first big membership breakthrough for the church, so Peter was the one on whom the church may be said to have been "built (up)."

Hold on there, can we back that bus up some, Beep, Beep, Beep

I hear a lot of assumption, and supposition based upon those few words Jesus spoke to Peter. (But no Substance) In fact it was enough to actually build a whole culture around that belief in particular.

But looking at it, we see a different Picture than the one that has been hung before us for so long a time.

My Substance submitted in rebuttal.

A Mother's Request

Mat 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mat 20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Who Is the Greatest?

Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Luk 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

These verses from Jesus, speak against such a Position as that one perceived to have been given to Peter, or anyone for that matter to be over the Apostles.

When Jesus says they will be Judges over the Twelve tribes, He is speaking of ALL not just Peter, that are ALL equal.

Divisions in the Church

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Co_3:4
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Here we see how Paul was forced to handle this very thing about.
(WHO IS THE LEADER OVER US)

This is exactly the same thing which would have happened if Jesus HAD appointed Peter as the Head as people believe, that is exactly the reason He did not do it, it would have fostered Carnality and Division in the Church right from the beginning, and we all know what Jesus said about that.

Mar_3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mar_3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Now here comes the crux of the whole argument.

According to Belief, (Tradition) Peter was declared to be the Head of the Church by Jesus' own words.

But what we see from Scripture, contradicts this Teaching, Belief.




Paul Accepted by the Apostles

Gal 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person, for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me,
as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

A couple of things here,
1) The Gospel of the Uncircumcision was to Paul,
2) While the Gospel of the Circumcision was to Peter.

Don't you think Peter would have said something about his being the ROCK and being appointed by Jesus, therefore as the Head of the entire Church, at that time in the conversation?

If as people believe Peter was the HEAD of the Church, why then do we read it was James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, people just don't notice that Peter is not mentioned except in the context of having the Gospel of the Jews committed unto him.

How then does he become the Head of the Gentiles when he hasn't done anything to Evangelize them?

Lastly, the passage in question which gives Peter this supposed position.

Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ

Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said,

((((Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. ))))

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and

((((upon this rock I will build my church; ))))

and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

The ROCK being spoken of by Peter and Jesus was, the TRUTH spoken by Peter, and that this TRUTH would be reveled to man only by GOD the FATHER.

"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 

[JIMINZ]

ANGUSPURE:

Thank you for your response, but does that mean you
1) Agree?
2) Disagree?
3) You learned something?

Just curious.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Recognising the location setting they were in (Caesarea Philippi) when Jesus said these things is also enlightening. The temple of Pan was located there and a river spring poured out of a cave at the base of a large cliff. In niches carved into the rock of the cliff were placed statues to the honor of Pan. So when Jesus speaks, the apostles can see a picture of what they are in Him. He is the bed rock, the mighty buttress from which living water flows, and they are the stone figures that are placed in Him that proclaim and honor Him.

Apart from the fact that we are all living stones, I agree with you.

 

[Aussie Pete]

It could cast doubt on the idea that it was Peter's faith that was the rock, but not Peter the man.

We are all fallible. Including Peter. Paul and Barnabas had a falling out. None of us can claim to be The Rock. That is the Lord Jesus. We are built on the Rock, if we choose to do so. Even our faith is a gift of God. (Ephesians 2:8)

 

[RoseCrystal]

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter G4074, and upon this rock G4073 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

G4074
?e´t???
Petros
pet'-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

G4073
pe´t?a
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

It is clear that Peter was a rock, smaller than the mass of rock that Christ is building his church upon. Peter was part of the larger mass of rock, not the full rock of the church itself.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock G4073 was Christ.


G4073
pe´t?a
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

The Catholic perspective is as follows

Jesus didn't speak Greek, he spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic there is no word for big rock vs little rock, its just rock (the word is Kepha). So in Aramaic Jesus said, thou art kepha (rock) and upon this kepha (rock) I will build my church.

In greek, as you have pointed out, Petra is feminine, the greek writers couldn't very well call Peter a girl.

Petros is the masculine form of rock where as Petra is the feminine form. It is usual to use the feminine form to suggest a source of something (e.g. literally big). But of course, Peter was a man and so needed the masculine form as a name.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Matthew 7:24-27
Regarding the 3000 that believed at Shavuot, is it a coincidence it is the same exact number as in Exodus 32:28?

 

[Lost4words]

The Catholic perspective is as follows

Jesus didn't speak Greek, he spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic there is no word for big rock vs little rock, its just rock (the word is Kepha). So in Aramaic Jesus said, thou art kepha (rock) and upon this kepha (rock) I will build my church.

In greek, as you have pointed out, Petra is feminine, the greek writers couldn't very well call Peter a girl.

Petros is the masculine form of rock where as Petra is the feminine form. It is usual to use the feminine form to suggest a source of something (e.g. literally big). But of course, Peter was a man and so needed the masculine form as a name.

Agreed.

 

[LightLoveHope]

The rock is the Faith declaration that Jesus is the Christ. Peter was testifying who Jesus was because of what He was doing and saying. His death only had power and reality if the disciples were ordinary and awed.

Jesus death would be a surprise, and His resurrection our victory. Imagine if the guys had all been like Judas, it would not have worked. Life impact, face to face.